WWYD? GPU dilemma. Update!

[CL30]

Thank you guys for your previous help with the M.2 thread. 

I have a different situation now.  A buddy offered to sell me his 3090 FTW3 Ultra Gaming for $650 US. If you remember from my other thread, I’m kinda trying to limp this PC along until I do a new build. It’s not a bad PC and runs DCS great on flat screen, and I’m pretty happy with my VR performance as well, other than it being an old Rift S.

Current specs are 9600K (4.9 GHz), 2080Ti, and 64 GB RAM, after a recent step up from 32. 
 

I feel the 9600k just barely makes it with the 2080Ti right now. The CPU definitely maxes out often. Do you think stepping to the 3090 would be better or worse at this point? The best I can do on this board would be a 9900k, but I don’t want to put too much of a bandaid on ($$) vs just going for a new build. 
 

Thoughts? 

Edited February 12 by CL30

[kksnowbear]

Running the 3090 with the 9600k won't hurt anything, so (if you're interested in the 3090) go for it - with the intent, of course, of moving it when the time comes.

If you're already planning an upgrade, I would seriously consider skipping the CPU change from the 9600k.

This is one reason I dislike the term "bottlenecking"...people read this and imagine a weak CPU is going to do terrible things to an over-matched GPU.

It won't.

It may not perform as well as it would with a better CPU, but I will absolutely guarantee you that moving from a 2080ti to a 3090 will be huge, regardless. (I've owned several examples of both, recently, so this is a first hand, professionally trained and experienced opinion).

Unless you already planned on going to a GPU better than a 3090 with your next upgrade (no small feat TBH) then the 3090 is a great card.

Since you're also doing VR, this needs to be carefully considered. If you know, for instance, you want to go to a 4090 then it might be better to tough it out now and wait. That will honestly come down to how long before the upgrade you're considering.

[CL30]

Yeah, I was planning on building a new system with a 13700k/13900k and, at least, a 4080. Just when the wife will let me is the question!

I think having two capable PCs would be pretty handy though. My son wants to learn to fly, so I'm thinking of putting MSFS on to start teaching him the basics before he starts taking lessons. Who knows...maybe I'll have a new DCS wingman soon, too!

 

Edit: As for VR, future VR actually, I think I would probably go with something like a Quest 3 at least. Admittedly though, I'm a bit out of the loop on VR. I plan to build a PC decent enough that it shouldn't be an issue.

Edited February 6 by CL30

[Dragon1-1]

A 4080 is, from what I heard, comparable to a 3090, while costing much more and having less VRAM. VRAM is crucial for DCS (largely due to poor texture optimization), so a 3090 might actually be the better choice. I don't know if you can get a better deal on the 4080 than $650. In my country you probably can't.

Also, make sure you have enough power to run a 3090, this one is a massive hog. If not, you need to factor in a new PSU.

[LucShep]

I'm really divided on opinion, and this is from someone who actually owns an RTX 3090, bought used (mint condition - not mined - from other like-minded gamer).

I got mine right at the time of the RTX 4090 and 4080 release, after watching their (trully) ludicrous prices, the wattage consumption, and 12 pin adapter idiosyncracies (plus, they don't undervolt all that well, AFAIK). I paid about the same you mention for mine (650€ back then) and I'm still really happy with it, not going to upgrade anytime soon.

That said, some other perspective before jumping the gun...

With the sole exception of the mighty RTX 4090, the RTX 4000 series have not been selling well. Even the latest RTX 4080 and 4070/Ti Super that were released recently are not in demand as early expected (so far, time will tell later on). It's not that they suck, it's the prices that (still) do. There will be the ocasional deal for them.
Rumours are just that -rumours- but, while the RTX 5000 series were expected only in early-to-mid 2025, it now seems a "end of 3rd quarter 2024 launch" may happen.

Regardless, we're at the declining curve of this 4000 series RTX generation.
If an RTX 4070Ti Super (yes, it "only" has 16GB) is already a bit faster than an RTX 3090 24GB, then how fast do you think an RTX 5070/Ti will be, at a (somewhat?) similar price?

Don't get me wrong, I love my RTX 3090 and after a nice undervolt I can't even call it a "hog" like most reviewers did (~100W less at max consumption, zero performance loss).
But let's be real.... it'll be four years -and maybe two generations- old at the end of this next summer.

Unless it's a planned upgrade with all this accepted, and it's a GPU from someone you trust, be very aware you'd be investing on a used (no warranty) soon to be ageing GPU.
But, if it checks all the boxes, and if you're confident that you can resell it later, then, heck.... go for it? 

EDIT:  if not upgrading CPU, then think about overclocking that 9600K - some bottlenecking is expected.

Edited February 7 by LucShep

[CL30]

Hmm, you guys have given me some things to consider. 

Yes, the seller is a good friend/former coworker of mine, and he takes excellent care of his stuff. I wouldn't give that part a second thought. And, if it did die, I could still put my 2080Ti back in I suppose. 

Guess I'll chew on this a little while. Oh, and as far as power supply goes, I think I have an 850W in there; might be a 1000W, but can't remember. I'll check my build list on PCPartpicker, and I'll also edit the list with the 3090 to see what it says. 

Also, I do have my 9600k OC'd to 4.9 GHz. I have had it up to 5.0, but didn't like how hot it was running. 

[Dragon1-1]

4 hours ago, CL30 said:

Also, I do have my 9600k OC'd to 4.9 GHz. I have had it up to 5.0, but didn't like how hot it was running. 

A big honkin' water cooler, or a corresponding high performance aircooled radiator might be a good investment if you're planning to upgrade the CPU, anyway. Generally, newer CPUs tend to require better cooling to get the most out of them. You could pull it up to 5.0 in the meantime due to better temps.

7 hours ago, LucShep said:

But let's be real.... it'll be four years -and maybe two generations- old at the end of this next summer.

I'm waiting to see whether the 50xx series will be any good. I'm generally used to buying the last generation GPU in order to avoid having to spend an absolute fortune. GPU performance seems to be approaching a plateau, the numbers for 40 series seem amazing, but I wonder if that's mostly due to technologies like frame generation. In practice, a 3090 is enough for most things, anyway, unless you're doing 4K/ultrawide gaming. Maybe they'll come up with something for the 50 series that'll be worth it, maybe not.

[CL30]

3 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

A big honkin' water cooler, or a corresponding high performance aircooled radiator might be a good investment if you're planning to upgrade the CPU, anyway. Generally, newer CPUs tend to require better cooling to get the most out of them. You could pull it up to 5.0 in the meantime due to better temps.

I'm waiting to see whether the 50xx series will be any good. I'm generally used to buying the last generation GPU in order to avoid having to spend an absolute fortune. GPU performance seems to be approaching a plateau, the numbers for 40 series seem amazing, but I wonder if that's mostly due to technologies like frame generation. In practice, a 3090 is enough for most things, anyway, unless you're doing 4K/ultrawide gaming. Maybe they'll come up with something for the 50 series that'll be worth it, maybe not.

I've got a 360 AIO on it now. My build is several years old. I should probably clean the old paste off and reapply...good idea?

[Dragon1-1]

Might be. A 360mm AIO seems like it should be able to cool at 9600K at 5.0GHz, provided the radiator has proper airflow and the fan and pump curves are set correctly. Then again, this kind of thing may also depend on the specific CPU die.

[kksnowbear]

2 hours ago, CL30 said:

I've got a 360 AIO on it now. My build is several years old. I should probably clean the old paste off and reapply...good idea?

AIOs can go bad (gunk in the liquid).   BTW it's "liquid", not "water" cooling.  (I'd say to have a swig sometime...but I think it's either poisonous or at minimum, not very good for a person to consume).  I've rebuilt a few of them, and you'd be amazed what comes out.  This can render even a good AIO completely useless.  Also, pumps do fail sometimes.

Replacing thermal paste is (almost) never a bad idea, particularly if it's been several years.  Incidentally, use good compound.  Never mind thermal conductivity (which is also a consideration)...the cheap crap dries out far more quickly, and it doesn't take a genius to understand that wet stuff conducts heat better than dry stuff.  I personally recommend Arctic MX-4 since it stays 'wet' (doesn't fully cure) for up to 8 years.

Given the case you have, I'll assume you have the radiator top mounted to exhaust heat, correct?  Very bad idea to mount a radiator in the front as an intake.  The only reason people usually do this is a case that wasn't built to house the radiator they're trying to shoehorn in the case (buy a proper case).  Putting a radiator in the front dumps heated air back into the chassis, which per the law of conservation of energy (i.e. "energy can neither be created nor destroyed"), is obviously a bad idea.

A couple things to consider:  When you say too hot...how hot, exactly?  I know people who freak out when a CPU hits 70c...which is not that hot these days (depends on load, conditions, and exact CPU, of course). According to Intel, Tjunction for a 9600k is 100c, so unless you're seeing temps north of say 80 or higher at stress-test level loads, it's probably not an issue.  You'd need to know more.

Also, can you say the temps are worse now than when the system was first built?

Try setting fans to 100% in BIOS - just as a test - to see if the temps improve.  This can help narrow down any problems.

Edited February 7 by kksnowbear

[CL30]

Sorry for the late reply, guys. Been out visiting family. 
 

The rad is top mounted, and temps only got high during stress testing….pushed 90ish if I remember. Been quite a while. I bet I could put it back up to 5.0 for DCS and it would run fine. I think temps only get into the mid-60s when playing right now.  I’ve been wondering about this AIO anyway and wondering if it’s working right. The LED on the pump head failed early on when I bought it, but AFAIK it’s still working…probably worth a look! It’s a Thermaltake Ring Flow something or other lol.  Gotta run, about to push off the gate. 

[Dragon1-1]

On 2/7/2024 at 3:54 PM, kksnowbear said:

AIOs can go bad (gunk in the liquid).   BTW it's "liquid", not "water" cooling.  (I'd say to have a swig sometime...but I think it's either poisonous or at minimum, not very good for a person to consume). 

Doesn't change the fact it's mostly water, though. It does have a ton of things in it, such as anticorrosion agents and biocides, but these need to be kept to a minimum due to high concentrations of solutes affecting the water's heat capacity. So water cooling is not incorrect. In fact, any water cooling system, be it automotive, aviation or stationary, will usually have similar chemicals mixed in. OTOH, they're missing most of the other things you typically find in tap water (calcium, most notably).

In fact, the gunk is probably a fungus or bacteria that colonized the inside of the AIO with either insufficient biocide or one that went bad. Don't ask me how they do it, but they do. There may be some metal ions and chemicals leaching into the water from the plastic, but my guess would be most of it being biological. Fungi can grow in some ridiculous places.

[kksnowbear]

It *is* incorrect.  It's not water.  Blathering on about what else is in it doesn't make it water.

Drink some.  Post a video proving it.  Then I'll call it water.

Simple.

>link<

Water is an inorganic compound with the chemical formula H₂O. It is a transparent, tasteless, odorless,^[c] and nearly colorless chemical substance...

The stuff in those AIOs is certainly not tasteless, and sometimes not transparent nor odorless.  You can sure as hell feel it, and water doesn't feel like that...

...and (whatever the chemical formula is) it's not H20.

Thus, it's not water.

Edited February 8 by kksnowbear

[LucShep]

On 2/7/2024 at 5:07 AM, CL30 said:

Hmm, you guys have given me some things to consider. 

Yes, the seller is a good friend/former coworker of mine, and he takes excellent care of his stuff. I wouldn't give that part a second thought. And, if it did die, I could still put my 2080Ti back in I suppose. 

Guess I'll chew on this a little while. Oh, and as far as power supply goes, I think I have an 850W in there; might be a 1000W, but can't remember. I'll check my build list on PCPartpicker, and I'll also edit the list with the 3090 to see what it says. 

Also, I do have my 9600k OC'd to 4.9 GHz. I have had it up to 5.0, but didn't like how hot it was running. 

Sounds fairly good for you with that RTX3090 then.
A good 850W PSU is fine with an RTX3090 and i5 9600K (or even i9 9900K). If it was a modern i7 or i9 (13700K / 14700K, 13900K / 14900K), then I'd say ≥1000W recommended.

I get your dillema.
RTX4070 Super 16GB would be a good purchase, it's a nice upgrade over an RTX2080Ti. But they're still too expensive (considerably more than that used RTX3090).
RTX4080 (Super or not) even better, for sure, but that's priced too high, even worse.

If your 9600K is already all-core OC'ed at 4.9Ghz, then don't bother going over that and leave it as is - huge diminishing returns from that point on (with that processor), IMO.

I may differ from other's opinions but, I think in your case an i9 9900K would be a decent upgrade "on the cheap" - search around on Ebay, you'll find some under $200USD.
It's a direct CPU swap. 

And if your AIO cooler goes "kaput", consider going for a twin-tower air cooler. If so, I strongly recommend the Thermalright PS 120 SE, at $35 it's simply unbeatable atm.
It matches performance of a Noctua NH-D15 (and even 280 AIO coolers) at a fraction of the price, and no reliability concerns - other than possibly fans, nothing to go wrong.
 It also allows for a decent overclocking on an i9 9900K (think all-core 4.9Ghz). Unbeliveable cooler for such a low price.

Edited February 8 by LucShep

[Dragon1-1]

4 hours ago, LucShep said:

RTX4070 Super 16GB would be a good purchase, it's a nice upgrade over an RTX2080Ti. But they're still too expensive (considerably more than that used RTX3090).
RTX4080 (Super or not) even better, for sure, but that's priced too high, even worse.

In general, I find that NVIDIA overdid the pricing on the 40 series. They just don't offer enough bang for the many bucks they're asking for them. I'm afraid the 50 series might be the same, inflating the prices even further for a gain in performance that's unnecessary unless you're doing multiple 4K monitors or a pro-grade VR headset.

In fact, even the 3090 was considered overpowered when it was released. The general vibe I got from it was "not worth it for gaming". That review didn't account for VR, but still, the performance it offers has very few other applications. Well, except maybe for heating the house in winter. That it does perfectly well.

5 hours ago, kksnowbear said:

Thus, it's not water.

Then your tap water isn't water, either. Sea water isn't water. Pool water isn't water. And no, I'm not going to be drinking either (especially if you have lead pipes). In fact, you probably never drank pure H2O yourself. Not only it's actually bad for your electrolyte balance, it's also pretty darn hard to come by. Water is just too good at dissolving things.

Even chemists use "distilled water" or "deionized water" (the distinction is often important) when precision is called for. I've actually worked with ultrapure water for some cool lipid monolayer research. That was pretty much as close to chemically pure H2O as it gets, even deionized stuff (which such labs usually have on tap) didn't cut it in this case. And no, I wouldn't drink that, either, because as I said, electrolytes (plus, the machine took forever to refill if you used up the whole tank). Drinking water has many different salts dissolved in it, and is notably not tasteless, if you ever tasted even simple distilled water, you'd know the difference.

Sorry, but gunky, brackish or otherwise nasty water is still water, as far as everyone else understands it. Blathering about how it's not just because there's stuff floating in it doesn't change that. And yes, even a tiny amount of other chemicals can completely change how it "feels".

[kksnowbear]

Dude, you're wrong. It's not water, period. I said nothing about what's in tap water or whatever; those are things you brought up to try and make your point. It doesn't make any difference about those, what I said was what is in the AIO coolers is not water, and it's not.

Not H20, thus by definition not water.

Any idiot can understand that. All that other crap you're trying to introduce, I never mentioned at all. Straw man.

 

[CL30]

5 hours ago, LucShep said:

Sounds fairly good for you with that RTX3090 then.
A good 850W PSU is fine with an RTX3090 and i5 9600K (or even i9 9900K). If it was a modern i7 or i9 (13700K / 14700K, 13900K / 14900K), then I'd say ≥1000W recommended.

I get your dillema.
RTX4070 Super 16GB would be a good purchase, it's a nice upgrade over an RTX2080Ti. But they're still too expensive (considerably more than that used RTX3090).
RTX4080 (Super or not) even better, for sure, but that's priced too high, even worse.

If your 9600K is already all-core OC'ed at 4.9Ghz, then don't bother going over that and leave it as is - huge diminishing returns from that point on (with that processor), IMO.

I may differ from other's opinions but, I think in your case an i9 9900K would be a decent upgrade "on the cheap" - search around on Ebay, you'll find some under $200USD.
It's a direct CPU swap. 

And if your AIO cooler goes "kaput", consider going for a twin-tower air cooler. If so, I strongly recommend the Thermalright PS 120 SE, at $35 it's simply unbeatable atm.
It matches performance of a Noctua NH-D15 (and even 280 AIO coolers) at a fraction of the price, and no reliability concerns - other than possibly fans, nothing to go wrong.
 It also allows for a decent overclocking on an i9 9900K (think all-core 4.9Ghz). Unbeliveable cooler for such a low price.

 

I’ve never bought used PC equipment. Anything to watch out for if I were to buy a used 9900k? My same buddy had a 9900k with this 3090 he’s selling, but he’s already moved that chip into something else (I asked if he was selling it…maybe I already mentioned that?).

[Lange_666]

8 hours ago, kksnowbear said:

Not H20, thus by definition not water.

If you ever called the stuff that comes out of your water tap "water" (and i guess you do) then your point in this discussion is just silly. Drop it.

[BIGNEWY]

folks be nice to each other and get back on topic

thanks

[LucShep]

13 hours ago, CL30 said:

I’ve never bought used PC equipment. Anything to watch out for if I were to buy a used 9900k? My same buddy had a 9900k with this 3090 he’s selling, but he’s already moved that chip into something else (I asked if he was selling it…maybe I already mentioned that?).

It's the one chip that, back in the day, turned Intel to a meme because of its high wattage and temperatures. But, today, the newer iterations of 13th and 14th gen make it look like an easy inocent chip. 
Nothing really to watch out for with the i9 9900K. It's a tough processor that will run forever and is hard to kill BUT, if buying used from unknown source, better to enquire the seller about possible modifications -- OC'ing enthusiasts liked to play around with direct-die cooling or liquid metal mods. If it's completely stock, then it's good to go.

The i9 9900K is an 8c/16t CPU that is extremely similar to the i7 10700K (actually, vice-versa is more correct).
It overclocks fine upto 5.1GHz but gains are barely noticed once over 4.9Ghz (all-core OC), and at huge cost of temps and wattage (plus possible slow degradation of the chip). 
Already good at stock, I'd even say that overclocking on it is not a huge performance exercise (as was over a decade ago) but more of a fun thing to do "because you can".

There are three other versions of the i9 9900K, that you'll notice if buying used:
1) The i9 9900KF, which is same as a regular 9900K just without the onboard graphics (requires a dedicated GPU) - great choice for a gaming system, and usually cheaper.
2) The i9 9900KS, a higher binned special edition, which comes already pre-overclocked to 5.0Ghz (all-core) from factory - good, but people ask a big premium for it.
3) The cheaper i9 9900K "ES" versions, which are much lower binned and lower clock "engineering sample" versions - these are not worth the savings, do NOT buy.

The i9 9900K is not a hybrid CPU (no little/big cores like most recent ones) so all cores are treated equally and never create issues with whatever program or OS.
Plus, the "snappy" feeling is present (memory controller is on the CPU, not in motherboard chip). And it's probably why people still keep them, regardless of faster choices today.

No longer the performance champion (an i5 13600K blows it to the weeds) but it's still a good gaming chip, which, in particular cases like yours (budget and/or ease of upgrade), can make for a quick affordable(ish) solution that is good for quite a while still.

In the last 25 years I've been constantly building (and upgrading) systems where only a small % of CPUs, motherboards and RAM sticks were bought new, and same for GPUs.  
There's nothing wrong in buying used HW parts at all, if you know how to handle the stuff.  Huge savings to be had! ...that is, so long as you don't crave for the latest/greatest. 
If it's PSUs, NVMEs, SSDs, HDDs, and coolers, now that's a different story (buy these new, always).

Edited February 9 by LucShep

[CL30]

Thanks for the explanation, LucShep. I’ll browse around eBay. Having a few more cores/threads would be nice for OBS and editing.

[CL30]

Update: Well, I actually won an auction in eBay. Have a 9900K on the way now. Gonna grab my buddies 3090, too!