Helicopter controls - force feedback question (Huey)

[CommandT]

Hi all, 

I have a question for those who either know or have flown helicopters in real life. 

I'm setting up the force feedback for my new set up for the Huey and I'm wondering, how loose/ tight the cyclic generally feels in real life? On the ground, if you deflect it full in any axis, will it spring back to center or will it keep it's position where you leave it more or less? 

Might be a silly question but I've never flown any helicopter in real life so I'm wondering how I should set up the force feedback for my stick. I imagine the helo cyclics in general to be relatively free in terms of movement without having to apply much force, and without wanting to self-centre very much? Or am I wrong?

Many Thanks! 

[EvilBert VR]

Like in almost every helicopter ( at least the ones I have flown) there's no such thing as a re-centering. It will basicly stay in the position where you bring it to. So a spring loaded joystick is pretty useless and unrealistic when it comes to fly helicopters.
In regards of the "stickfeel": As spoken for the Huey, it's pretty soft. You feel a marginal counterpressure when starting the movement. Once over it the stick moves very smooth until you stop it at any position. You could flick the stick with a finger at any position and the stick would wander through up to it's mechanical stop.

In other helicopters featuring electro-mechanical trimming systems the feel is a little different. The haptical mechanical feedback from the rotorsystem is less present but that might be a subjective impression.

Cheers

[UncleStains]

I asked my dad, who flew Hueys in the Army 40+ years ago, this same question. He told me that the spring force is pretty light and he rarely used force trim. I got a VPForce Rhino a couple weeks ago and I intend to get my dad over to try it out soon and give me some feedback. I will report back when that happens. Hopefully he can remember!

Edited February 7, 2024 by UncleStains

[HansPeter1981]

Hello there,

 

5500+ hours in "real life" currently flying the 407 Winter and 212 summer. So pretty close to Huey and upcomming OH58. The only time you have "force feedback" is when you turn the hydraulics off, or push against the activated force trim in the 212.  So like Evel Bert was saying, no self centering and  very easy to move at least for the cyclic. In dcs I have an extension + weakest spring on my Gunfighter which is a pretty satisfying feel for me.

So other then in smaller models without hydraulics you dont feel much other then some correlation between cylic and collective. Or some self centering on the anti torque pedals (unless also hydraulicly boosted).

 

Just to give you an idea about real life:

So if I let the cyclic go it would fall with gravity in the direction its being displaced unless enough friction is applied to prevent that.

Now that I talk about it, the 212 not sure about the huey or if its modelled in DCS has a stabilizer bar on top of the rotorhead and you can certainly feel that on your cyclic inputs. Quite some lag and some travel for certain changes.

407 instead because of its semi rigid rotorhead the cyclic is super "touchy" and responsive.

Collective instead would travel with your cyclic or certain manouvers, but I fly with a ton of friction on it, so if I dont move it it doesnt move...  the only thing you feel there is the resitance of your applied friction...

 

Maybe worth mentioning... I stopped using trim with DCS Helicopters, because in reality you would trim your cyclic which means it will hold its postion or gets displaced with the trim movement.

That would be the only meaningful application here for "force feedback" I can imagine.

Hopefully that was not too confusing.

 

Happy flying...

 

 

[CommandT]

21 hours ago, HansPeter1981 said:

Hello there,

 

5500+ hours in "real life" currently flying the 407 Winter and 212 summer. So pretty close to Huey and upcomming OH58. The only time you have "force feedback" is when you turn the hydraulics off, or push against the activated force trim in the 212.  So like Evel Bert was saying, no self centering and  very easy to move at least for the cyclic. In dcs I have an extension + weakest spring on my Gunfighter which is a pretty satisfying feel for me.

So other then in smaller models without hydraulics you dont feel much other then some correlation between cylic and collective. Or some self centering on the anti torque pedals (unless also hydraulicly boosted).

 

Just to give you an idea about real life:

So if I let the cyclic go it would fall with gravity in the direction its being displaced unless enough friction is applied to prevent that.

Now that I talk about it, the 212 not sure about the huey or if its modelled in DCS has a stabilizer bar on top of the rotorhead and you can certainly feel that on your cyclic inputs. Quite some lag and some travel for certain changes.

407 instead because of its semi rigid rotorhead the cyclic is super "touchy" and responsive.

Collective instead would travel with your cyclic or certain manouvers, but I fly with a ton of friction on it, so if I dont move it it doesnt move...  the only thing you feel there is the resitance of your applied friction...

 

Maybe worth mentioning... I stopped using trim with DCS Helicopters, because in reality you would trim your cyclic which means it will hold its postion or gets displaced with the trim movement.

That would be the only meaningful application here for "force feedback" I can imagine.

Hopefully that was not too confusing.

 

Happy flying...

 

 

 

On 2/6/2024 at 11:24 PM, EvilBert VR said:

Like in almost every helicopter ( at least the ones I have flown) there's no such thing as a re-centering. It will basicly stay in the position where you bring it to. So a spring loaded joystick is pretty useless and unrealistic when it comes to fly helicopters.
In regards of the "stickfeel": As spoken for the Huey, it's pretty soft. You feel a marginal counterpressure when starting the movement. Once over it the stick moves very smooth until you stop it at any position. You could flick the stick with a finger at any position and the stick would wander through up to it's mechanical stop.

In other helicopters featuring electro-mechanical trimming systems the feel is a little different. The haptical mechanical feedback from the rotorsystem is less present but that might be a subjective impression.

Cheers

 

21 hours ago, UncleStains said:

I asked my dad, who flew Hueys in the Army 40+ years ago, this same question. He told me that the spring force is pretty light and he rarely used force trim. I got a VPForce Rhino a couple weeks ago and I intend to get my dad over to try it out soon and give me some feedback. I will report back when that happens. Hopefully he can remember!

 

Thanks a bunch guys! yep, with the FFB joystick I now have I can simulate the stick not self-centering, and I can get the trim switch to have it "freeze" or find a new neutral point in that position which is pretty cool! But then it sort make me think that having a trim switch at all is pretty pointless if the stick has no tendency to move back and doesn't really have much resistance. Might as well just lightly keep your hand on it in the new position and keep going. 

Thanks again! I'll set up the force feedback so there isn't any natural self-centering effect... and I assume that doesn't really change much when flying at higher speeds? 

[jpuk]

On 2/7/2024 at 5:49 PM, HansPeter1981 said:

Hello there,

 

5500+ hours in "real life" currently flying the 407 Winter and 212 summer. So pretty close to Huey and upcomming OH58. The only time you have "force feedback" is when you turn the hydraulics off, or push against the activated force trim in the 212.  So like Evel Bert was saying, no self centering and  very easy to move at least for the cyclic. In dcs I have an extension + weakest spring on my Gunfighter which is a pretty satisfying feel for me.

So other then in smaller models without hydraulics you dont feel much other then some correlation between cylic and collective. Or some self centering on the anti torque pedals (unless also hydraulicly boosted).

 

Just to give you an idea about real life:

So if I let the cyclic go it would fall with gravity in the direction its being displaced unless enough friction is applied to prevent that.

Now that I talk about it, the 212 not sure about the huey or if its modelled in DCS has a stabilizer bar on top of the rotorhead and you can certainly feel that on your cyclic inputs. Quite some lag and some travel for certain changes.

407 instead because of its semi rigid rotorhead the cyclic is super "touchy" and responsive.

Collective instead would travel with your cyclic or certain manouvers, but I fly with a ton of friction on it, so if I dont move it it doesnt move...  the only thing you feel there is the resitance of your applied friction...

 

Maybe worth mentioning... I stopped using trim with DCS Helicopters, because in reality you would trim your cyclic which means it will hold its postion or gets displaced with the trim movement.

That would be the only meaningful application here for "force feedback" I can imagine.

Hopefully that was not too confusing.

 

Happy flying...

 

 

What stick are you using for DCS? I removed the main spring in my TM Warthog stick. Very good.

[HansPeter1981]

Gunfighter IV ‘Modern Combat Edition’ Ultimate - S-Extended 200mm

 

[Youtch]

On 2/7/2024 at 12:05 AM, CommandT said:

Hi all, 

I have a question for those who either know or have flown helicopters in real life. 

I'm setting up the force feedback for my new set up for the Huey and I'm wondering, how loose/ tight the cyclic generally feels in real life? On the ground, if you deflect it full in any axis, will it spring back to center or will it keep it's position where you leave it more or less? 

Might be a silly question but I've never flown any helicopter in real life so I'm wondering how I should set up the force feedback for my stick. I imagine the helo cyclics in general to be relatively free in terms of movement without having to apply much force, and without wanting to self-centre very much? Or am I wrong?

Many Thanks! 

I was very glad to have fpund this thread to help me tune my FFB Rhino, many thanks for posting it and all those who replied.

I bought a Rhino after checking your vids on FFB, and I also have to thank you for this, as this is the best purchase I ever made.

This thread made me wish that there was a post consolidating the feel on the stick of all the helicopters and planes in DCS to help with the configuration of FFB, maybe with associated configs as well, to get got instance for F18, F14 or A10 the most realistic feel.

This would really help those of us who never got the chance to pilot the real thing when having to configure FFB for these modules.

Thanks again,

y.

 

 

[Youtch]

Following up on the quest to try to configure FFB to feel as realistic as possible for UH-H1.

I understand that the cyclic does not self-center as for fixed wing aircrafts where the stick is "spring loaded" as for instance in F14 or F4 or ww2 propeller planes, the cyclic instead moves freely and will not return to the center by default.

So far so good, one of the most magic part of FFB is to get rid of base spring.

But this lack of self-centering does NOT imply that there is no changes of force felt along the travel range of the cyclic.

In UH-H1, I read that the force required to make any input changes depends on the amount of deflection, the more deflection the more force required in the input. Is this correct?

I came recently to discover this while trying to figure out how UH-H1 pilots are able to feel where is the neutral position of the stick when the aircraft is not yet forced trim before take-off, since there is no instrument whatsoever in the cockpit reflecting the angles of the blades. Basically without any spring on the stick and without displaying the position of the controllers, I was crashing on take off because the stick was not near the center.

Apparently, pilots can feel the center because there is a steeper gradient of force just around the neutral position. Anyone would have more information about this?

I wish I would be able to capture this behavior, but I have no clue how to create a gain curve in VPForce_Configurator to link more deflection with more force without using spring mapping.

Many thanks in advance here for the community of Subject Matter Experts to bring some more light on this topic.

[Zentaos]

The “center” you are referring to is more about CoG not deflection force. There is not any more force at any given amount of deflection, but you will feel where the control “center” is by where the CoG of the aircraft is depending on weight and balance as you pick up into a hover. Try to visualize a spinning top on a plate and you are tilting the plate to keep the top in center. There isn’t really a great way to deal with this in simming other than a motion platform. This is why smooth pickups and set downs are one of the most challenging aspects of flying helis in sims. The best way to handle this is to really know your helicopter and its sight picture well. 
 

There are, however, aerodynamic forces that require more deflection force. Like during cruise, you have to hold the cyclic forward and there is force pushing it back because the rotor wants to slow down naturally, not speed up. This is the primary function for trim in helicopters. To reduce the fatigue of cruise forces trying to push the disk back to a state of equilibrium. 

[Vladinsky]

On 3/5/2025 at 6:45 PM, Youtch said:

Following up on the quest to try to configure FFB to feel as realistic as possible for UH-H1.

I understand that the cyclic does not self-center as for fixed wing aircrafts where the stick is "spring loaded" as for instance in F14 or F4 or ww2 propeller planes, the cyclic instead moves freely and will not return to the center by default.

So far so good, one of the most magic part of FFB is to get rid of base spring.

But this lack of self-centering does NOT imply that there is no changes of force felt along the travel range of the cyclic.

In UH-H1, I read that the force required to make any input changes depends on the amount of deflection, the more deflection the more force required in the input. Is this correct?

I came recently to discover this while trying to figure out how UH-H1 pilots are able to feel where is the neutral position of the stick when the aircraft is not yet forced trim before take-off, since there is no instrument whatsoever in the cockpit reflecting the angles of the blades. Basically without any spring on the stick and without displaying the position of the controllers, I was crashing on take off because the stick was not near the center.

Apparently, pilots can feel the center because there is a steeper gradient of force just around the neutral position. Anyone would have more information about this?

I wish I would be able to capture this behavior, but I have no clue how to create a gain curve in VPForce_Configurator to link more deflection with more force without using spring mapping.

Many thanks in advance here for the community of Subject Matter Experts to bring some more light on this topic.

The UH-1H has a spring centering force of 1.21 lbs/inch in pitch and 0.79 lbs/inch in roll with a total cyclic travel of 13 inches in pitch and roll.
The pedals have a spring centering force of 7.3 lbs/inch with a total travel of 6.5 inches.

With force trim turned off or the force trim button depressed the springs are disengaged and the only resistance felt is the inertia and friction of the pushrods and hydraulic servos, which is negligible.

[MAXsenna]

19 hours ago, Vladinsky said:

The UH-1H has a spring centering force of 1.21 lbs/inch in pitch and 0.79 lbs/inch in roll with a total cyclic travel of 13 inches in pitch and roll.
The pedals have a spring centering force of 7.3 lbs/inch with a total travel of 6.5 inches.

With force trim turned off or the force trim button depressed the springs are disengaged and the only resistance felt is the inertia and friction of the pushrods and hydraulic servos, which is negligible.

When you write "spring centering", can I assume that you are referring to the trimmed position as "the centre"? Cheers! 

[Vladinsky]

3 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

When you write "spring centering", can I assume that you are referring to the trimmed position as "the centre"? Cheers! 

Yes, that's right.

[MAXsenna]

Yes, that's right.

Thanks! I'll keep the numbers above in mind.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

With my Rhino I just tuned it in a way that felt good to me, so I can have the best possible experience while flying it.

Personally I have tuned the friction and inertia a bit higher than the values I use for the Kiowa for example, and that feels best for me and minimises the chance of me over-controlling.

I fly with force trim turned off.

[Youtch]

On 4/3/2025 at 4:50 AM, Vladinsky said:

a total cyclic travel of 13 inches in pitch and rol

Do you have the source for cyclic travel because I was finding conflicting information, is 13 inches the total travel for one axis, or the travel in each direction?

Thanks again,

y.

[Zentaos]

13 inches would be the total travel of the axis (-6.5 each direction from center). 

Like Vladinsky stated, with Force Trim turned off, or the button depressed, there isn't any spring force returning it to center, but there is still mechanical friction from all of the linkages.

If you fly without spring, you should still have a good amount of damping. The cyclic doesn't flop about, it stays where you let go of it...ish.

[Vladinsky]

5 minutes ago, Youtch said:

Do you have the source for cyclic travel because I was finding conflicting information, is 13 inches the total travel for one axis, or the travel in each direction?

Thanks again,

y.

Total travel, you can find this information in the 1979 NASA CR 3144, it has the same data for a couple other helicopters too.

[Youtch]

So far i had used this thread for information, but maybe it was incorrect: https://forum.dcs.world/topic/91406-uh-1h-how-many-degrees-of-travel-in-the-collective/?utm_source=chatgpt.com