F-4E Phantom II Development Update and Release Delay Announcement

[Stackup]

55 minutes ago, Viper33 said:

Because it's what they have done in the past. It may be less so lying rather than not keeping your word/promise. Remember the early 14A? 14 out of EA by 2023? A-6 AI this summer? List goes on.

This.  They seem to have no concept of how to properly manage expectations of their customers (or themselves) or create reasonable estimates for completion times.  

Let's go back to July 2022 where they said Early F-14A by the end of the summer.

And then pretty much exactly a year ago in May of 2023 we get told the A-6E AI model would be released during the summer.

And that's not even all the times they said the F-4 was still scheduled for 2022 all the way into October of 2022(8 months after the war in Ukraine started, they would known they couldn't make it)!  Silence till late January 2023 where they finally admitted they missed 2022.  Then it was coming in 2023, but they allowed feature creep due to the delays with the F-15E which caused the F-4 to be delayed even further.  Finally we start seeing videos and a preorder is dropped in October.  Having previously been told the F-4 would have one of the shortest preorder periods of a DCS module, we were given a winter 2023-24 release window which did not adhere to the accepted standard definition of winter and which was subsequently missed.  Then we get told release in April, worst scenario May.  Then it becomes no later than May 31st or Cobra gets hit by a meteor.  So by Heatblur's own set definition, we are now in the worst case scenario for the F-4 release. 

If they fail to make May...  we'll still probably all buy it and nothing will change because their isn't anything to compete with DCS, they basically have a monopoly on this niche part of the flight sim community.  There's no alternative.

2 hours ago, Hayrake YE-ZB said:

It’s coming this month, period.

They can say that all they want but until they put their releases where their mouth is, I'll remain increasingly skeptical.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

8 minutes ago, Pampi said:

Chill relax.... be happy.... think back to the time of the Phantom.... flower power... love not war...

Yeah, but I'd rather hurl myself upon the fainting couch.

[ivo]

4 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

Dovrebbe essere effettuato un test di idoneità mentale prima dell'acquisto per il preordine.

Davvero le persone non si conoscono abbastanza bene da essere in grado di prevedere l'angoscia autoindotta che qualsiasi ritardo percepito o reale nel rilascio causerà loro?

Considera i soldi del preordine proprio come se fossero soldi buttati dal finestrino di un'auto in movimento e tutto il tuo tormento mentale cesserà. 

The mental test should be done by those who say the product will be released by a certain date and then it is delayed several times. period. Here we don't want to understand that it's not the fact of saving 20 dollars but the way of making fun of one's customers with these continuous postponements. NO ONE HAS ASKED HB TO SPECIFY A RELEASE DATE FOR THE PRODUCT. Then a legal aspect also comes into play between buyer and seller, when the seller does not respect the declared date for the release of his product the contract is automatically no longer valid and the buyer has the right to a refund if desired also with the calculation of the accrued interest on dollars spent. Then I don't doubt the quality of the product when it comes out but I DO NOT agree with HB's way of acting without considering that all this indirectly affects the reputation of those who host HB or Eagle Dynamics... (translated with Google so I apologize for the not perfect English, but my money is worth the same).

[Hayrake YE-ZB]

What did the contract that you agreed to when you pre-purchased say?

This is a helluva lot of drama over a paltry sum of money. It’s a fraction of what it costs me taking my family out for a meal at a decent restaurant. It’s bizarre to see people wasting time writing long diatribes over trivial matters. 

[hermes7226]

11 минут назад, Hayrake YE-ZB сказал:

What did the contract that you agreed to when you pre-purchased say?

This is a helluva lot of drama over a paltry sum of money. It’s a fraction of what it costs me taking my family out for a meal at a decent restaurant. It’s bizarre to see people wasting time writing long diatribes over trivial matters. 

Money has different values in different countries. 

[JG11Preusse]

vor 58 Minuten schrieb Hayrake YE-ZB:

What did the contract that you agreed to when you pre-purchased say?

This is a helluva lot of drama over a paltry sum of money. It’s a fraction of what it costs me taking my family out for a meal at a decent restaurant. It’s bizarre to see people wasting time writing long diatribes over trivial matters. 

Great explanation. It costs you a meal in a restaurant with you family.

maybe also you are able to recognice that people dont care about the costs of a meal with your family in a restaurant, they care about what Heatblur tells the customers and not only the first time they dont tell the truth.

I also dont care to pay a flight for my family to Canada or Asia, but what we are talking about is not your family visit in a restaurant.

 

[Hayrake YE-ZB]

And people don’t care that a delay in a video game is ruining your life. That’s on you, not anyone else, including the developers, DCS, the country you live in, your mean boss who doesn’t pay you enough, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. You are responsible for your own happiness.

[Hayrake YE-ZB]

It gets old, mate. Someone posts a sad story that no one cares about because everyone is dealing with the same delay, and it results in a flurry of embarrassing sob stories of victimhood, all based on the idea that developers are greedy and evil, as if they are purposely delaying the release while sitting around an opulent chalet counting their money. 

The truth is that they are a group of enthusiasts who desire to produce a good product, but have run into unforeseen problems which take time to solve given the limited resources they have. It’s a handful of programmers and artists, not a giant studio funded by a deep pocketed corporation.

That’s the way it works, whether you are a prince living on a yacht on your subject’s backs, or are living alone, marooned on the moon. You do you with whatever resources you have, and live with your choices. It is what it is, complaining solves nothing.

[Stackup]

6 minutes ago, Hayrake YE-ZB said:

It gets old, mate.

So do these responses defending poor planning/customer relation decisions.

7 minutes ago, Hayrake YE-ZB said:

all based on the idea that developers are greedy and evil, as if they are purposely delaying the release while sitting around an opulent chalet counting their money. 

Wow who hurt you and who ever said that?  I certainly didn't, I only pointed out (with examples) that Heatblur has next to no idea how to properly manage expectations or make estimates as to when they will actually release a product.  No more.  No less.  

9 minutes ago, Hayrake YE-ZB said:

It is what it is, complaining solves nothing.

Yeah, because complaining has never resulted in changes being made...

If complaining solves nothing, and we should all just be content with what we have, then why don't YOU stop complaining about the complaining and do something other than read this forum.  You're feeding into it just as much as everyone else and are doing no more than complaining yourself.

[Hayrake YE-ZB]

If complaining to on a forum works, then why is the module delayed? Show me how the misery has moved up the release and I’ll bow to your logic.

The truth is that a handful of inconsolable people are irrationally upset and want to be consoled. 

There is nothing further to say, good luck finding happiness in video games.

[Stackup]

2 minutes ago, Hayrake YE-ZB said:

If complaining to on a forum works, then why is the module delayed?

You said complaining solves nothing.  There's a hundreds if not thousands of different movements and laws that were made due to people complaining which completely invalidates your point about that. 

This forum is one of the only ways we can interact with the developers, and so people will interact for good or bad.  Complaining will not make the module come faster unless it's the F-16, which did release to EA early due to customer requests.  And that release was terrible from what I hear.

On the otherhand, complaining may in fact get the company to make an effort to be better at communicating things like delays and to stop overestimating their ability to defeat Murphy's Law and actually release a product.  They won't know we don't like something unless we tell them.

[Stackup]

In other news, in case anyone hasn't seen, Heatblur updated the manual yesterday and we're getting more new weapons!  The CBU-1 and CBU-2 (SUU-7A) cluster dispensers like those found on the A-4 mod are officially coming into DCS!

[felixx75]

26 minutes ago, Stackup said:

On the otherhand, complaining may in fact get the company to make an effort to be better at communicating things like delays and to stop overestimating their ability to defeat Murphy's Law and actually release a product.  They won't know we don't like something unless we tell them.

It may be that this has a small effect, but people are getting more and more involved and overdoing it completely.

I may be wrong, but as far as I know, Heatblur has explained quite extensively what and why...
Also, they haven't given any firm dates, except for the final date of 5/31/2024

It is to be hoped that those who are most upset here will never pre-order another module again... That would be good for everyone involved.

If it wasn't so sad, it would be really funny how for some here Heatblur has gone from "best 3rd party developer ever for DCS" to "biggest evil" because something didn't go according to plan.

Of course, everything else in software development always goes exactly according to plan, but Heatblur is simply incompetent, just wants our money and is also constantly lying...

(in case it's not clear, that was irony)

But be that as it may, I for one will now close this thread for myself and pay no further attention to it.

No matter when the Phantom will arrive, I will have a lot of fun and this fun would not have been any greater 4 months or 1 year ago and it will not be any less in the event of another (very, very unlikely) delay.

Have fun here

Edited May 4, 2024 by felixx75

[Stackup]

40 minutes ago, felixx75 said:

I may be wrong, but as far as I know, Heatblur has explained quite extensively what and why...

I'm not just talking about the F-4 though, I don't remember an extensive writeup on why the F-14A early was delayed.  Or the A-6 AI apart from some comments about all the data being on one guy's computer that got lost.  Why it wasn't backed up anywhere else, idk small company I guess.  I do remember a reddit post where Cobra said that an AI to HB standards shouldn't take more than a year and he's very disappointed in their progress on that front, so the people complaining here aren't the only ones irritated by that.

42 minutes ago, felixx75 said:

It is to be hoped that those who are most upset here will never pre-order another module again...

You don't have to preorder to have an opinion on product development however misinformed it may or may not be.  Telling someone that something is coming within a certain timeframe and then not delivering may be a normal business practice for government contractors and flightsim developers, but that doesn't mean it should be or that we just have to take it lying down.  For instance, I haven't preordered the F-4 because there is no product yet.  No real reason to buy early except the discount unless you wanted the shirt and vinyls.

45 minutes ago, felixx75 said:

If it wasn't so sad, it would be really funny how for some here Heatblur has gone from "best 3rd party developer ever for DCS" to "biggest evil" because something didn't go according to plan.

Of course, everything else in software development always goes exactly according to plan, but Heatblur is simply incompetent, just wants our money and is also constantly lying...

(in case it's not clear, that was irony)

It's also hyperbolic.  Being the best means the expectations for you are higher and subsequently you have farther to fall if something goes wrong.  It also means you get passionate fans who will give you extra patience and grace because they know your quality.  But even passion and support has its limits, and the delays have exceeded some people's tolerances, good for you that it hasn't exceeded yours.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

49 minutes ago, felixx75 said:

But be that as it may, I for one will now close this thread for myself and pay no further attention to it.

No matter when the Phantom will arrive, I will have a lot of fun and this fun would not have been any greater 4 months or 1 year ago and it will not be any less in the event of another (very, very unlikely) delay.

Have fun here

Probably for the best, although I will say the Discord gets much worse, so if people think this is bad, well, welcome to the Internet...  Happy flying whenever it comes out anyways.

[=475FG= Dawger]

I am convinced people pre-order or pretend they did just for the opportunity to whine incessantly once any delay occurs. 
 

As I said earlier, treat pre-orders like money thrown out the window. If throwing the pre-order price tag in cash out is going to affect your life in the slightest, you should never consider preordering anything. 
 

If you preorder knowing your panties will get twisted in knots, you did this to yourself and should refrain from announcing your lack of self control to the world. 
 

If you preordered and were surprised at how the inevitable delays have upset your apple cart, internalize the lesson and move on. 
 

Continuing to complain at this point can only be because you enjoy whining. 

[diego999]

It seems there are more people complaining about the complaining, than people complaining.

Funny how that works.

[Viper33]

2 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

I am convinced people pre-order or pretend they did just for the opportunity to whine incessantly once any delay occurs. 
 

As I said earlier, treat pre-orders like money thrown out the window. If throwing the pre-order price tag in cash out is going to affect your life in the slightest, you should never consider preordering anything. 
 

If you preorder knowing your panties will get twisted in knots, you did this to yourself and should refrain from announcing your lack of self control to the world. 
 

If you preordered and were surprised at how the inevitable delays have upset your apple cart, internalize the lesson and move on. 
 

Continuing to complain at this point can only be because you enjoy whining. 

It wouldn't be this way if this wasn't an established business model and people weren't ok with it. It's almost as if in the modern day people want to get taken advantage of and be nickle and dimed by large corporations. If my company fails to deliver important components on time under a contract, guess what I lose the contract and in some cases pay the damages / additional development costs resulting from said failure to deliver critical components.

1 hour ago, diego999 said:

It seems there are more people complaining about the complaining, than people complaining.

Funny how that works.

This. If you don't like hard questions or the not so pretty facts you can just also go do something else or close this section of the forums. No one is forcing you to look at the screen or holding you hostage to read these topics. It's almost as if these people are only waiting for someone to "complain" so they can comlain about the fact people are complaining on an internet forum. Truly crazy times we live in where this is a worthwhile spending of someone's time. 

I do think there would be much less complaining (one way or the other) if developers were simply transparent and honest with their customers about the state of development. The constant ambiguity and constantly missed targets don't exactly help to build trust. There is a reason larger companies hire dedicated project management and PR teams. And remember, this is a very niche game development - there is absolutely no reason why DCS developers would be required to be secretive about certain details and aspects of their development cycles. There's no market espionage and this isn't a classified ordeal. 

Just my two and a half cents and I do hope for you all that the Phantom releases sooner rather than later so this can be a thing of the past and both the developers and the community can move on to better and greater things. 

 

[Q3ark]

This thread has been great, so much drama, over reaction and emotion. I’m thinking of cancelling my Netflix subscription, enough entertainment here!! 

[=475FG= Dawger]

8 hours ago, Viper33 said:

 

This. If you don't like hard questions or the not so pretty facts you can just also go do something else or close this section of the forums. No one is forcing you to look at the screen or holding you hostage to read these topics. It's almost as if these people are only waiting for someone to "complain" so they can comlain about the fact people are complaining on an internet forum. Truly crazy times we live in where this is a worthwhile spending of someone's time. 

 

 

If your (collective) whining and moaning was contained within the designated thread, then only those interested in it would visit it. However, you (again collectively) insist on doing the whining and moaning in topics of interest to the community in general and we have to read through it all to glean any nuggets of interest.

[MAXsenna]

This thread has been great, so much drama, over reaction and emotion. I’m thinking of cancelling my Netflix subscription, enough entertainment here!! 

And they claim men don't show emotions! Bollocks!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[Hayrake YE-ZB]

Men?

Wait until they get the Phantom and begin to whinge about it being “too hard”.

Edited May 5, 2024 by Hayrake YE-ZB

[Stackup]

13 hours ago, Viper33 said:

This. If you don't like hard questions or the not so pretty facts you can just also go do something else or close this section of the forums. No one is forcing you to look at the screen or holding you hostage to read these topics. It's almost as if these people are only waiting for someone to "complain" so they can comlain about the fact people are complaining on an internet forum. Truly crazy times we live in where this is a worthwhile spending of someone's time. 

I do think there would be much less complaining (one way or the other) if developers were simply transparent and honest with their customers about the state of development. The constant ambiguity and constantly missed targets don't exactly help to build trust. There is a reason larger companies hire dedicated project management and PR teams. And remember, this is a very niche game development - there is absolutely no reason why DCS developers would be required to be secretive about certain details and aspects of their development cycles. There's no market espionage and this isn't a classified ordeal. 

Heaven forbid people point out the history of missed dates and previous actions/statements of a highly regarded company in an effort to shed light on why some people might be fed up.  But no, any criticism of how a company runs their business is to be met with the loyal defense brigade and instant hyperbolic exagerations and accusations of calling Heatblur "evil, money grubbing, corporate slime of the worst kind" (which no one but them ever has) or direct attacks against the consumers calling them "whiny children who don't understand money".  It's laughable how childish, whiny, and completely condescending the response is from the complainers of complaining.  It's straight to character attacks, stereotypes, and baseless assumptions about people they have never met nor will ever likely meet.

 

"Oh they aren't real men because I just know they'll all complain about how hard the Phantom is to fly, and real men don't want a challenge or ever complain about things they don't like."  Please, you're complaining about how others are choosing to spend their own time and money. Doesn't seem very manly to me, but what do I know, I'm just a random guy on the internet.

Edited May 5, 2024 by Stackup

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

7 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

And they claim men don't show emotions! Bollocks!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

Exactly, we just reserve our emotions for ancient civilizations we're so far removed from, it doesn't even matter if we live where they did AND anything that flies, moves, or shoots.

[Viper33]

3 hours ago, Stackup said:

Heaven forbid people point out the history of missed dates and previous actions/statements of a highly regarded company in an effort to shed light on why some people might be fed up.  But no, any criticism of how a company runs their business is to be met with the loyal defense brigade and instant hyperbolic exagerations and accusations of calling Heatblur "evil, money grubbing, corporate slime of the worst kind" (which no one but them ever has) or direct attacks against the consumers calling them "whiny children who don't understand money".  It's laughable how childish, whiny, and completely condescending the response is from the complainers of complaining.  It's straight to character attacks, stereotypes, and baseless assumptions about people they have never met nor will ever likely meet.

 

"Oh they aren't real men because I just know they'll all complain about how hard the Phantom is to fly, and real men don't want a challenge or ever complain about things they don't like."  Please, you're complaining about how others are choosing to spend their own time and money. Doesn't seem very manly to me, but what do I know, I'm just a random guy on the internet.

 

Because they can't provide any constructive and factual counterarguments to said evidence. So they resort to "stop complaining" and ad hominem attacks. I understand that baseless complaining is annoying but this is far from baseless and like you said, you provided examples and factual evidence from the past to back up your claims. If people are willing to see a preorder like throwing away money (great financial decision by the way) and are ok with that then other can ask simple questions whether something is delayed or not. Most people experienced enough with DCS and software releaess already knew that the Phantom would be delayed back in April, yet the same people defended HB stating that March 31st will for sure be the date. It's almost a perpetual cycle.

[=475FG= Dawger]

24 minutes ago, Viper33 said:

Because they can't provide any constructive and factual counterarguments to said evidence. So they resort to "stop complaining" and ad hominem attacks. I understand that baseless complaining is annoying but this is far from baseless and like you said, you provided examples and factual evidence from the past to back up your claims. If people are willing to see a preorder like throwing away money (great financial decision by the way) and are ok with that then other can ask simple questions whether something is delayed or not. Most people experienced enough with DCS and software releaess already knew that the Phantom would be delayed back in April, yet the same people defended HB stating that March 31st will for sure be the date. It's almost a perpetual cycle.

If you think buying a DCS module is a financial decision, you definitely shouldn't be pre-ordering. You probably shouldn't be playing DCS either.