Nose down when braking

[SMH]

5 hours ago, Holbeach said:

Some of us have a stuation where the brakes come on instantly to 50%, which causes prop damage and is therefore unusable. You don't seem to have this problem.

The tailwheel should have 6 deg max from centre, (which isn't much), and is only meant for near straight running with the stick pulled back.

..

I can't easily say how many degrees it is, but rudder-tailwheel steering is noticeably less authoritative than before. At least 33% less, maybe even more.

And no, I'm pretty sure my braking is analog. Will double check later when I get a chance. 

[Holbeach]

1 hour ago, SMH said:

I can't easily say how many degrees it is, but rudder-tailwheel steering is noticeably less authoritative than before. At least 33% less, maybe even more.

And no, I'm pretty sure my braking is analog. Will double check later when I get a chance. 

Here's what I found with some ground running with 30 % fuel.

The tailwheel is connected to the rudder at a ratio of 5 to 1, so with full deflection of 30 deg, the tailwheel will be at 6 deg and it looked spot on to me and taxi steering was good.

Locked and with brakes it will do donuts with the wheel skidding sideways at neutral stick. Unlocked, the wheel swivels to 90 deg and going backwards it swivels to 180 deg

At full load this might all be different.

..

[Art-J]

OK, finally hopped into Mustang for the second time since 2.9.4 release and just have done some driving around in NTTR takeoff practice mission. Don't know how much fuel we're carrying in that one, but honestly, +/- 6 deg tailwheel steering works exactly as before in my opinion, while in unlocked mode the wheel also swivels pretty tight and smooth as expected. 

Moreover, brakes sensitivity doesn't feel much higher (if higher at all?) to me and I fired up Kurfy and Dora later just to compare how fast the "brake triangles" on Ctrl-Enter indicator fill up when I use my MFG crosswinds set to full linear output. Result - they seem to be comparable to the Mustang really so even if there was some "sharpening" done to Mustang in 2.9.4 I can't see it to be honest, at least when using analog pedals and not digital button/switch etc.

Granted, in all DCS warbirds I'm used to using brakes at the latest stage of landing rollout, at ground speeds below 20 kts so maybe that's why apart from overall "bouncyness" and aforementioned reversed wheels animation, I just can't see anything THAT noticeably different & worse compared to 2.9.3. 

Replay track attached below.

 

2.9.4_Must_taxi_test.trk

[Holbeach]

Mustang brake .trk

13 hours ago, Art-J said:

 

Replay track attached below.

 

2.9.4_Must_taxi_test.trk 2.45 MB · 2 downloads

Pity that track wasn't Caucasus, I would have liked to have seen it.

My brakes are exhibiting the same characteristics in all my toe brake aircraft and I've not noticed it before because it has little effect on nose wheel planes.

Maybe, my end, problem.

Track shows brakes default axis. Notice instant jump to half power.

With regards to the soft oleos, I ran it down a concrete runway and was able to rock it from side to side, rolling like a boat as if the oleos had no damping as they extended fully.

..

Edited April 23, 2024 by Holbeach

[SMH]

Here's a test run. Caucasus Hot Start Instant Action TF-51 mission. (I forgot to check but full fuel, I assume. No aux tank, of course.)

So the tailwheel model does appear to caster as it should, I think I was mistaking something to do with the braking for its new reluctance to turn. I was also thrown off by the skid sound that we wouldn't have gotten before from application of brake on only one side at relatively low speed - as one would do to make a sharp corner. (I'm not sure if it's telling us the braked wheel is skidding or the tailwheel is skidding, but I'd think the latter should caster almost silently when the stick is forward, as it was when I did this.)

This also demos really well how spongy and soft the new suspension is. I get it bouncing like a lowrider at one point. I'd think Mustang oleos stay pretty stiff and mostly only collapse a bit on the impact of landing. While I haven't flown one, I've never seen footage of Mustangs bouncing around like this just by applying brakes while taxiing.

As for its reluctance to turn, it really does feel like both brakes are coming on a bit when only one is applied. (Which might explain the skid sound too?) But the Controls Display shows they're independent so it would have to be deep in the FM.

Anyway, you can handle it but man, it's so much more of a workload now. I have trouble believing it's like that in real life. I suspect just increasing the suspension stiffness will fix most of it, but there might be something up in the way brake power comes on and possibly with their independence now too. Can't say for sure but it's definitely a handful to taxi now.

 

TF-51_New_Suspension_Test_01.trk

Edited April 23, 2024 by SMH

[SMH]

Watched your tracks. Art-J, that's exactly what I'm seeing. It's reluctant to turn when the stick is forward and the tailwheel should be freely castering, and the oleos are super-soft.

@Holbeach, you definitely have a mapping or maybe controller calibration issue. They shouldn't come on to 25% like that instantly. Can you show us the Axis Tune panel for your brake axes?

I set mine like this. The bit of deadband and saturation at each end makes sure I can always reach 100% on and 0% off, even if my controller calibration drifts a bit. (I've had trouble in the past with slightly stuck-on brakes from not doing that. Also throttles that wouldn't go into shutoff or full AB. Unless your controller calibration is rock-solid and never drifts I'd recommend doing this on any of the non-centering "slider" axes, to ensure you always get the full range out of them.)

null

(Oh I see now you did that intentionally. Hmmmm... )
 

 

Edited April 23, 2024 by SMH

[Art-J]

21 minutes ago, SMH said:

Watched your tracks. Art-J, that's exactly what I'm seeing. It's reluctant to turn when the stick is forward and the tailwheel should be freely castering, and the oleos are super-soft.

 

Can't quite agree about reluctancy to turn - to me that aspect feels the same as it was before 2.9.4 and still is in remaining "old physics" warbirds ie. one needs to get the plane moving to let inertia swing it around a little. Nothing changed here in my opinion. On a sidenote, it's DCS Mosquito that got reluctant to turn with the new physics, simply because its brakes are made of marshmallows now, almost like the ones in Il-2GB  .

I do agree, however about general "boaty" behaviour of Mustang dampers currently. My oh my, in left and right turns while taxiing it sways like old American family midsize saloon car :D.

[SMH]

1 minute ago, Art-J said:

Can't quite agree about reluctancy to turn - to me that aspect feels the same as it was before 2.9.4 and still is in remaining "old physics" warbirds ie. one needs to get the plane moving to let inertia swing it around a little. Nothing changed here in my opinion. On a sidenote, it's DCS Mosquito that got reluctant to turn with the new physics, simply because its brakes are made of marshmallows now, almost like the ones in Il-2GB  .

I do agree, however about general "boaty" behaviour of Mustang dampers currently. My oh my, in left and right turns while taxiing it sways like old American family midsize saloon car :D.

I could well be wrong about the rudder-locked tailwheel authority and the reluctancy to turn when slow or from stopped. I'd kind of have to roll back and perform duplicate tests to compare them and don't really want to.

I'm now wondering if I can still do the same ground-loop stop in the P-47 that we could before (and that the real thing definitely can, there's a WW2 training film showing it). Will test.

I'll try the Mosquito too, only flew it briefly since these suspension physics updates. It in particular should have VERY hard oleos, as it's merely stack of rubber blocks.

 

[SMH]

The P-47 seems fine to me and yes, can still do the ground-loop short landing.

P-47_New_Suspension_Test_01.trk

 

And the Mosquito seems okay as well. Holds up to reasonable punishment and doesn't seem any more or less difficult to ground handle than before. (So, it's quite difficult. But maybe they're really like that.)

Neither are anything near as squishy on the struts as the P-51 is now!
 

Mosquito_New_Suspension_Test_04.trk

Edited April 23, 2024 by SMH

[Slippa]

I'm starting to think we're all seeing changes but we're not seeing them as bad as others, depending on our systems? PCs I mean.

Just a theory but NineLine or BigNewy said something similar too.

A quick scan and there's enough of us that are having trouble. Right across the board, 109s, 190s, everything so far bar the Spit. If the Spit gets this treatment I don't know what I'll fly.

Tried for a few hours to make the brakes managable. They're not usable. Tried the Holbeach settings and it locked the handbrake. I couldn't release it without dumping the aircraft for another one and tried again. Did it each time I tried so I tried the SMH approach too. No better for me either so I experimented a bit. No chance in sorting the brakes so I tried the wobble taxi.

shortish track of a dodgy wheelspin, a take off, quick circuit, touch and go and a dodgy landing. Oleos look good and suspension spongy but it all want's toning down. Brakes are busted for now.

Pony Rides Manston .trk

[grafspee]

I tried P-51 yesterday and it feels more squishy. I think that front struts are much softer and this is the reason why nose goes down while braking. I didn't mess with brakes axis and i could manage with ease. Brakes maybe a bit sensitive but nothing tragic. Fully playable with some habits adjustment. If your intention is to adjust brakes axis so you can taxi it exactly as before this update, you will definitely fail. 

There is big change how P-51 behave on ground very noticeable at take off and landing but nothin unmanageable from my side.

Only thing which had to be done are tires skid sound and tires roll sound.

Edited April 24, 2024 by grafspee

[Holbeach]

10 hours ago, Slippa said:

 

 

 Tried the Holbeach settings and it locked the handbrake. 5.65 MB · 1 download

I took over your track when I noticed you've only altered 1 brake axis.

You have to do both.

You had left brake permanently on. Right brake was OK.

I corrected brake, taxied, took off and landed normally.

Couldn't do anything about the music though.

..

Edited April 24, 2024 by Holbeach

[Slippa]

I thought I’d tried that too but I’ll have a look again later no doubt, cheers.

I’m gobsmacked at some of the results people seem to be getting. I wish it was something my end then maybe it’d be an easy fix and I’d be happier. Both the Mossie shaking and the Pony brakes are drastically different/changed/completely knackered for me. 

If I even slightly touch either brake pedal in the Mustang I can bunny-hop the tailwheel. They’re almost either full on or they’re off.

I’d rather be flying em than buggering about trying to fix em. I don’t think we should have to be trying to fix em either. Like I said, maybe it’s something my end but I’m pretty sure it isn’t, other software’s fine with my peripherals etc.

[Holbeach]

17 minutes ago, Slippa said:

I thought I’d tried that too but I’ll have a look again later no doubt, cheers.

I’m gobsmacked at some of the results people seem to be getting. I wish it was something my end then maybe it’d be an easy fix and I’d be happier. Both the Mossie shaking and the Pony brakes are drastically different/changed/completely knackered for me. 

If I even slightly touch either brake pedal in the Mustang I can bunny-hop the tailwheel. They’re almost either full on or they’re off.

I’d rather be flying em than buggering about trying to fix em. I don’t think we should have to be trying to fix em either. Like I said, maybe it’s something my end but I’m pretty sure it isn’t, other software’s fine with my peripherals etc.

See my previous post after watching your track.

..

[Slippa]

The track I posted was a while after I’d tried a lot of axis changes and curve combos. I will have a look later, I’d like to get some brakes working, cheers.

Edit: Nevermind, I’ll switch my brain on in a minute , right… I’ll look again 

Edited April 24, 2024 by Slippa
Doziness

[Scotch75]

I usually do more take-offs than landings unfortunately .


Sent from my SM-G998B using Tapatalk

[Qcumber]

I have just tied take off and landing with the P-51. The taxiing is definitely spongier but I quite like the feel of it. Just need to use a little bit of aileron to keep it steady. The breaks are much firmer. I have tuned mine to a 25% curve and that seems to work well. A bit bouncy in landing but its been a while since I flew the P-51 and I came in a bit too steep and fast. No mishaps though. 

I tried the P-47 and the suspension is softer so again a bit of a bounce on landing. The breaks seem the same as before so no need for any change. 

The 109 does not appear to have changed at all. 

I have not tried the A8, Spitfire or Mosquito yet. 

[Slippa]

1 hour ago, Scotch75 said:

I usually do more take-offs than landings unfortunately .

Me too .

Managed to get the axis tuning right this time. Using the settings from Holbeach gives a bit of lee-way on braking before it goes full on.

I'm getting to like the spongy a little bit too. It looks good but does want turning down or stiffening. Reminds me of driving a dodgy old renault from years back. Like sitting half asleep on the sofa being gently rocked from side to side. Any quicker and it'd be like something out of the streets of San Fransisco, screeching tyres included.

I could maybe get accustomed to the spongy shocks but I've had better in a Golf GTI. Sore point as the missus killed it for me. Loved that motor .

I know the Mossie story, epileptic on the ground for me. Have fun Qcumber. This (track) is how the Pony is for now. The Jug I tried and didn't have any problems, even liked the feel of it a bit.. I might give the 109 a look, always a laugh if I forget the tailwheel lock like in the Jug.

Just keep hearing David Niven in my head. Anxious whispers in my version though.

 

Pony Rides Manst-Holbs .trk

[SMH]

3 hours ago, Slippa said:

Using the settings from Holbeach gives a bit of lee-way on braking before it goes full on.

 

His settings do the opposite, I think. They make them come a quarter of the way on when pressed even a little. (I'd THINK they should also stay a quarter on when the pedals are released and I think if the axis wasn't inverted they actually would and this is a bug. As this is what the graph says: for zero controller input give us 25% output. Except I think when inverted that's not happening until the controller input value is > 0. Which would be incorrect and create that sudden jump we're seeing when they instantly come on.)

Anyway, again, I wouldn't recommend trying to second guess the brake power with the Axis Tune panel in anything other than adjusting a curve (as well as that little trick I showed above for trimming the ends off of non-centering "slider" axes) which is exactly what curves are for. They leave 0 at 0 and 100 at 100 and moosh the middle one way or the other to give you the response you'd like. (Though, again, linear should do for brake pedals and if it's way off that's ED's fault and we shouldn't be trying to fix it in the controls mappings. That said, I think they come on reasonably. I have no problem getting partial brake pressure. My biggest issue is the soft struts, but also it does feel much more reluctant to turn with the stick forward than it did before so I think the tailwheel castering might need looking at. The Mossie and P-47's tailwheels seem fine and like before and turns initiate much easier in each of those.)

[grafspee]

I literally jumped in P-51 on online server, i've lost my settings so i had to assignee axis and buttons again no adjusting curves or anything and i felt nothing drastic at all about P-51.  

I don't know maybe you should erase your settings and assign once again. 

 

 

[SMH]

Just now, grafspee said:

I literally jumped in P-51 on online server, i've lost my settings so i had to assignee axis and buttons again no adjusting curves or anything and i felt nothing drastic at all about P-51.  

I don't know maybe you should erase your settings and assign once again. 

 

 

My settings are fine. You're blind. The shocks/struts are drastically softer now.

[peachmonkey]

I might be wrong, but doesn't the "new" suspension mechanic simply adds the tire's softness into the mix?  When it was first announced as an upcoming change to Mosquito it was presented as the "old" was just calculating the struts compression/rebound, and the "new" was struts + tires compression/rebound. So, technically, the struts softness shouldn't have been changed at all.

Edited April 24, 2024 by peachmonkey

[Qcumber]

15 minutes ago, SMH said:

My settings are fine. You're blind. The shocks/struts are drastically softer now.

They are softer but the plane now feels a bit more realistic when taxing. It used to feel like it was in railroad tracks. 

[SMH]

1 minute ago, Qcumber said:

They are softer but the plane now feels a bit more realistic when taxing. It used to feel like it was in railroad tracks. 

Except that's not realistic. (And if it is, why don't the P-47 and Mosquito that have also had their suspensions recently reworked do it?)

Show us video of real Mustangs bouncing on their struts just due to normal braking. Should be easy to find, if real. (But it's not, cuz it's not.  ) 

[Qcumber]

1 minute ago, SMH said:

Except that's not realistic. (And if it is, why don't the P-47 and Mosquito that have also had their suspensions recently reworked do it?)

Show us video of real Mustangs bouncing on their struts just due to normal braking. Should be easy to find, if real. (But it's not, cuz it's not.  ) 

I've not looked at the plane from outside. It doesn't feel like it's bouncing around from the cockpit. I'll have a look from the external camera. 

Do you play VR or 2d?