Using a JTAC to lase hellfires

[markturner1960]

Hi, Have managed to sucessfully carry out buddy lasing with another Apache and am now trying to use a JTAC as well. 

I set my (see enclosed picture of ME settings) and gave him several groups to lase, chose designator etc. I can contact him OK and get the nine line read backs etc but had no luck getting a laser hellfire to guide on his laser. He has LOS and no red errors show in the ME.

I set my code the same for LST in the Apache, but did not get the "remote" in the TADS...

Have I missed something? 

Also, I gave the JTAC multiple targets, how does he cycle these ? Also, do you have to use the radio procedure to make him Lase? And how can you tell he is Lasing? 

Thanks

[Zyll]

During your comms with jtac via F10 menu, are you indicating 'in' and have you requested 'laser on'?

Zyll @ TAW

[markturner1960]

errrrr..no?

The options I get when I press the radio transmit go as follows: ( I first tune the radio to the frequency I set the JTAC to in the ME which in this case is 133AM) 

JTAC> F1 joint terminal attack controller (SSS), F2 "Deathstar" ( Other JTAC

I choose F1 and then I get range of options for checking in for 15, 20, 30 60 minutes

I choose one ....dont see the options you mention?

 

[razo+r]

After you have chosen the time, provided you use the correct radio and correct radio PTT button, JTAC should talk with you and give you more options. 

[markturner1960]

Hmmm....been fiddling with my main mission and now I dont get either JTAC responding to my radio calls. As its a large complex mission and difficult to upload, I made a small test mission using a similar set up.  I have attached it. 

I cant get the JTAC to respond to my call....I press my radio transmit after checking its the correct freq ( 133AM in this case), choose "JTAC -Axeman" from the radio menu and then "Checking in for 15 mins"        then I get nothing....which is exactly what happens in my big mission. 

I have just spent about 2 hours trying to figure it out ( You tube, manual etc) `......but am stumped. Could someone take a look and see what I am missing? 

Thank you....must admit I do enjoy making missions and learning, but it can be extremely frustrating!!! 

 

 

AH-64D JTAC Test.miz

Edited April 24, 2024 by markturner1960

[markturner1960]

Do you think that it is because I am within 10 miles of the JTAC that I am not getting the options? Watched a Grim reapers tutorial and in that he mentioned you dont get IP Inbound until 10 miles.....I am starting well within that.....?

In which case is it possible to get the target lased by a JTAC without starting greater than 10 miles out? 

If that were the case, still does not explain why they dont reply in the small test mission I uploaded earlier though.... 

Edit, no its not, moved my apache to 12 miles away, JTAC still wont respond when called

Edited April 24, 2024 by markturner1960

[razo+r]

1 hour ago, markturner1960 said:

Do you think that it is because I am within 10 miles of the JTAC that I am not getting the options? Watched a Grim reapers tutorial and in that he mentioned you dont get IP Inbound until 10 miles.....I am starting well within that.....?

In which case is it possible to get the target lased by a JTAC without starting greater than 10 miles out? 

If that were the case, still does not explain why they dont reply in the small test mission I uploaded earlier though.... 

Edit, no its not, moved my apache to 12 miles away, JTAC still wont respond when called

 

Distance has nothing to do with it. You can get tasks way outside of 10 miles, not sure about specifically the IP Inbound call though. 

In the mission you attached, you didn't set it up properly.

You gave him the FAC task, but set him up behind a mountain, unable to see anything to FAC. Thats your main problem.

And a tip, try to avoid double tasking. Like for example you set him first to FAC on frequency 133. Then you gave him the task to set frequency 131, and then in another task you gave him the task to set frequency 133 again.  It doesn't harm, but try to avoid it. You never know how fragile DCS is. 

So in order to fix your mission:

Place the JTAC somewhere with a line of sight to targets (and perhaps set him to invisible) -> Your main issue in this example

After that he should talk to you just fine.

I've tried it with the A-10C and it works. No idea why the AH-64 refuses though.

Edited April 24, 2024 by razo+r

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

Also check JTAC doesn’t get killed by enemy forces that see it or becomes preoccupied with shooting at enemies they see. Make them invisible and weapons hold. LOS is critical. Run your mouse cursor over map from JTAC to target to see if there is any rise in terrain altitude somewhere along the way that could block their LOS.

[markturner1960]

Thanks , I will double check those settings. pretty sure the LOS thing was not a factor, as I deliberately set him on the highest hill overlooking the town and was not getting any red LOS errors....

So remaining to understand, is how, if I set several targets for him to " FAC engage group" in advanced actions, how he prioritises these ( In the order you set them?) And how he moves from one to the next.....or can he lase them all at once? (Obviously not realistic or possible in reality but I wondered if DCS might treat it like that)

Finally, can you have more than one JTAC without issues? 

Thank you for the advice and help

Edited April 25, 2024 by markturner1960

[markturner1960]

OK, I have progress insofar as I have my JTAC working (but not the reaper drone yet) and can contact him and go through the whole 9 line procedure, ending with cleared to engage. 

He is set to lase target using 1688 in the ME.  I have WAS'd my laser hellfires, LST code is set A, A is 1688 in the set up. I have TRAJ set to Hi ( tried LO as well) I am aligned with the target, the missile is showing code A & R, but I am not seeing "remote" in the TADS...unsurprisingly, its not tracking when I fire the missile whgich following the guide here 

at minute 5, I should be. I have also been following Wags video from last year here: 

 

Which has a really clear description, but goes about it differently, by using LST auto mode on the TEDAC. I have tried this as well and get the tads performing its 4 bar scan but it never picks up the laser. 

I am somewhat limited in my ability to fault track whats happening as I cant see any way to check if the JTAC is actually lasing....which may be the issue. As I am pretty sure I followed both tutorial procedures properly .....

So, A) How do I check if teh JTAC is lasing? & B) why dont I get the "remote" notification in the TADS? C) Anything else I may be missing? 

One final question, have not mooved on to teh reaper drone acting as JTAC yet, but is its laser affected by clouds? Or is this not implemented yet? 

Thank you

[admiki]

55 minutes ago, markturner1960 said:

why dont I get the "remote" notification in the TADS?

REMOTE will be displayed only if your LRFD (your laser) and missile laser code are different. In your case, both LRFD and missile code are the same.

If you post a track file, we can take a look. My guess is that you were out of constraints when you fired. 

[Zyll]

You can confirm if the jtac is lasing by turning on your NVGs and look for the sparkle.

Zyll @ TAW

[markturner1960]

Hi, thanks...OK, I have made a test mission, which works perfectly, JTAC lases, missiles hit all targets. An important difference was that in the test mission, after the readback, I get the "IP inbound" & "Laser on" dialogue, which I dont in my main mission, in that, I just get "cleared to engage" from the JTAC ( why the difference, what causes that situation?)  and the my only option is "attack complete" etc. I tried checking with the NVG, but gain was too high, so will adjust the mission time so its darker. But I guess the JTAC did not lase as the missile did not guide. I have attached the mission itself and also a track. 

Thanks for helping me with this

 

Edited April 26, 2024 by markturner1960

[AlphaOneSix]

2 hours ago, Zyll said:

You can confirm if the jtac is lasing by turning on your NVGs and look for the sparkle.

Zyll @ TAW
 

Is the JTAC using two lasers at the same time? Because the laser used for sparkling is not a designating laser, and the designation laser is not visible under NVGs.

[markturner1960]

I have an update with progress and have it partially working. I can sucessfully contact both JTAC now ( My error in set up was issue) The Reaper drone I just set FAC and it does it's thing, it gives me a type 3 & I can guide missiles using its laser. I dont fully understand all the JTAC commands and options and how they work, but I imagine these are in the manual, so will check....

However, when using the same procedure with my ground based JTAC, I get a Type 2 & "cleared to engage" and my missiles do not guide. I am unsure if he is actually lasing. I have placed them right near the enemy, made invisible and weapons hold. 

Trying to understand why one works and the other does not......enclosed a track for the unsuccessful

Georgian hammerJTAC2.trk

Edited April 26, 2024 by markturner1960

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

6 hours ago, markturner1960 said:

I have an update with progress and have it partially working. I can sucessfully contact both JTAC now ( My error in set up was issue) The Reaper drone I just set FAC and it does it's thing, it gives me a type 3 & I can guide missiles using its laser. I dont fully understand all the JTAC commands and options and how they work, but I imagine these are in the manual, so will check....

However, when using the same procedure with my ground based JTAC, I get a Type 2 & "cleared to engage" and my missiles do not guide. I am unsure if he is actually lasing. I have placed them right near the enemy, made invisible and weapons hold. 

Trying to understand why one works and the other does not......enclosed a track for the unsuccessful

Georgian hammerJTAC2.trk 18.48 MB · 0 downloads

 

It can be a bit finnicky. I have come across instances where I set a JTAC with clear LOS to two assigned targets but the JTAC just refused to give me Type 1 or 2 but always Type 3 (no marking) for one of the targets. I could not figure out why.

[If you have the South Atlantic map, and if you like, you can try my test training mission here that is working as far as I can tell. It includes a Reaper and Stryker with assigned lased targets, and a Predator that uses Auto Target and Lase (MIST/CTLD scripts, ie. 9-line procedure not required). In the Mission Editor Triggers, just reset the DO SCRIPTS for MIST and CTLD to point to where you unzipped and saved the mist.lua and CTLD.lua files. Select the slot with Alpha 2 Apaches as they are armed with laser HFs so the JTAC can't ask for Radar HFs. But change the PRI and LST codes to CHAN 3/C (4121) when engaging targets lased by the Predator (red smoke). The Reaper and Stryker use the default 1688 laser code.] 

Apache Shark Hind Gazelle TGT Trg - SA Ushuaia.zip

Edited April 26, 2024 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[admiki]

11 hours ago, markturner1960 said:

I have an update with progress and have it partially working. I can sucessfully contact both JTAC now ( My error in set up was issue) The Reaper drone I just set FAC and it does it's thing, it gives me a type 3 & I can guide missiles using its laser. I dont fully understand all the JTAC commands and options and how they work, but I imagine these are in the manual, so will check....

However, when using the same procedure with my ground based JTAC, I get a Type 2 & "cleared to engage" and my missiles do not guide. I am unsure if he is actually lasing. I have placed them right near the enemy, made invisible and weapons hold. 

Trying to understand why one works and the other does not......enclosed a track for the unsuccessful

Georgian hammerJTAC2.trk 18.48 MB · 1 download

 

You have to tell him to lase. Once you fired, open radio menu and select LASE.

Besides, you need to enter coords JTAC gave you, so you know you are within missile launch constraints.

Edited April 26, 2024 by admiki

[markturner1960]

5 hours ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

It can be a bit finnicky. I have come across instances where I set a JTAC with clear LOS to two assigned targets but the JTAC just refused to give me Type 1 or 2 but always Type 3 (no marking) for one of the targets. I could not figure out why.

[If you have the South Atlantic map, and if you like, you can try my test training mission here that is working as far as I can tell. It includes a Reaper and Stryker with assigned lased targets, and a Predator that uses Auto Target and Lase (MIST/CTLD scripts, ie. 9-line procedure not required). In the Mission Editor Triggers, just reset the DO SCRIPTS for MIST and CTLD to point to where you unzipped and saved the mist.lua and CTLD.lua files. Select the slot with Alpha 2 Apaches as they are armed with laser HFs so the JTAC can't ask for Radar HFs. But change the PRI and LST codes to CHAN 3/C (4121) when engaging targets lased by the Predator (red smoke). The Reaper and Stryker use the default 1688 laser code.] 

Apache Shark Hind Gazelle TGT Trg - SA Ushuaia.zip 3.55 MB · 1 download

 

I do have the map and would love to take a look, as I was looking into these same scripts earlier…..May need to ping you for some clarity on instructions tomorrow if that’s ok?

59 minutes ago, admiki said:

You have to tell him to lase. Once you fired, open radio menu and select LASE.

Besides, you need to enter coords JTAC gave you, so you know you are within missile launch constraints.

 

Will look tomorrow……not sure I understand completely what you mean though? Sorry! 

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

2 hours ago, markturner1960 said:

I do have the map and would love to take a look, as I was looking into these same scripts earlier…..May need to ping you for some clarity on instructions tomorrow if that’s ok?

Sure!
 

[markturner1960]

BTW, discovered while trawling the ME bugs section that there is a bug currently with calling JTACS…..not sure if it is specific call sign related but it may be clouding the waters here as well…….

[markturner1960]

getting there with figuring out how it works and its peculiatities.....one thing: How important is it that you position yourself exactly  as he says? Bear in mind I am , for this scenario in a staionary helicopter. I also noticed that I get quite a wide range of differing sized avenues of fire...one time I got 0 - 260, another 280 - 290.....why is this?

@GrEaSeLiTeNiN tried your mission briefly but could not get my missiles to guide on the laser......should have more time over the next few days to try agin and see what I was doing wrong......

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

2 hours ago, markturner1960 said:

@GrEaSeLiTeNiN tried your mission briefly but could not get my missiles to guide on the laser......should have more time over the next few days to try agin and see what I was doing wrong......

You completed the JTAC 9-line with a "cleared hot" from JTAC? Did your LST crosshair settle itself on the target after scanning around? A track would be most helpful. 
(The auto lase script targets marked with red smoke are different as they do not require 9-line and use a different laser code 4121) 

[beacon]

i will place my question here i could not find anything about this. I wanted to use jtac but i always load my radar helfires. So if i use the  lase target then data goes to the missle that is ok. I wonder can we use jtac for this so he lases the target. then that coordinates goes to the missle?

[Recluse]

One thing I have done (before the LST was implemented) which works well is to set ACQ source to the Hellfire Seeker. When the JTAC illuminates the target on the right code, you will see a + in the HUD along with the indication of Hellfire in Constraints.  Of course, it also helps to know the range to the target so you know the Hellfire will make it there.  Fire and it should guide right to the Target.  (Still need to go through the processes outlined above to get the Laser ON and cleared HOT unless using AUTOLASE scripts).

This assumes you are using KILO SAL Hellfires, of course.

 

Edited October 17, 2024 by Recluse

[Recluse]

5 hours ago, beacon said:

i will place my question here i could not find anything about this. I wanted to use jtac but i always load my radar helfires. So if i use the  lase target then data goes to the missle that is ok. I wonder can we use jtac for this so he lases the target. then that coordinates goes to the missle?

I think you can do this with the LINK function once you pick up the laser spot in the LST (TADS). IN the video below it shows the FCR antenna slewing to the TADS target.. but it does not auto set NTS so you can engage that specific target with RADAR HELLFIRE/FCR. But it helps correlate what is in TADS with what the FCR is looking at. You would have to switch your sight BACK to the FCR to use the LIMAs..

Quote

jumping back to the front seat, we can also first acquire a target using the TADS and then link the FCR scan to that target. To do so, we’ll first make the TADS our sight and slew it to a new target. Once satisfied and TADS still as our sight, we press down on the sight select switch to select LINK. The FCR centerline then slaves to that location and TADSL is displayed in the HAD. When the FCR is linked to the TADS, which is only possible in the CPG seat, you can perform FCR scan bursts or adjust the FCR scan size, but again it is important to remember that the TADS is still your selected sight for targeting and weapon employment, and the FCR is only being used as a sensor for target detection and classification.

 

Edited October 17, 2024 by Recluse