More full fidelity Russian aircraft

[Silver_Dragon]

4 minutes ago, portman said:

The MiG-21 alone has many subvariants that it would be worth simulating. I'm just thinking of the PFM or the MF, let alone the F-13. Apart from that the current MiG-21BIS module has so many unrealistic features that - in a perfect world - it would have to be rebuilt from scratch. If we'll ever get the MiG-23 is also written in the stars at the moment, and I also don't see the MiG-25 or MiG-23BN / MiG-27 anywhere.

M3 has plans to remade the Mig-21Bis. 

[P1l0t]

10 minutes ago, portman said:

The MiG-21 alone has many subvariants that it would be worth simulating. I'm just thinking of the PFM or the MF, let alone the F-13. Apart from that the current MiG-21BIS module has so many unrealistic features that - in a perfect world - it would have to be rebuilt from scratch. If we'll ever get the MiG-23 is also written in the stars at the moment, and I also don't see the MiG-25 or MiG-23BN / MiG-27 anywhere.

MIG-21-93 Interceptor fighter, MIG-23-98 Multirole fighter, MIG-27D Fighter-bomber, MIG-27ML BAKHADUR Fighter-bomber, MIG-27UPG Fighter-bomber, MIG-25BM Air defense breakthrough fighter, MIG-25PD Interceptor fighter, MIG-25PDM Fighter-interceptor, MIG-25PDZ Fighter-interceptor, MIG-25PDS Interceptor fighter, MIG-25PDSL Interceptor fighter, MIG-29 (9-12) Front-line fighter, MIG-29 (9-13) Front-line fighter, MIG-29 (9-14) Front-line fighter, MIG-29K Carrier-based fighter-bomber, MIG-29KUB Carrier-based combat training fighter, MIG-29M Multi-role fighter-bomber, MIG-29M2 Multi-role fighter-bomber, MIG-29MRCA Multirole fighter-bomber, MIG-29N Multi-role fighter, MIG-29OVT Multi-role fighter-bomber, MIG-29S Multi-role fighter, MIG-29SD Multirole fighter, MIG-29SM Multirole fighter, MIG-29SMT Multirole fighter, MIG-29SE Multirole fighter, MIG-29UB Multi-role combat training fighter, MIG-29UBT Multi-role combat training fighter, MIG-29UPG Multirole fighter, MIG-29BM Multirole fighter, MIG-31 Interceptor fighter, MIG-31B Interceptor fighter, MIG-31BM Multirole fighter, MIG-31BSM Multi-role fighter, MIG-31M Interceptor fighter, MIG-31K Multi-role strike fighter, MIG-31M Interceptor fighter, MIG-31F/FE Multi-role fighter, MIG-31E Long-range fighter interceptor, MIG-33 Frontline fighter!

There's more to make up!

 

[Oceandar]

If you understood what I'm writing, you wouldn't be writing this. There will be a big surprise when the clickable cockpit MiG-29A arrives and players can see how different the FC3 MiG-29A completely partially fantasy based BVR radar mode is. Just to name a few!
Mode “V” (Vstryehchya): Encounter
Mode “D” (Dogon): Pursuit
Mode “SP” (???): Free Search
Or the SPO 15 RWR, which in Flaming Cliffs is partly a fantasy because in reality it works completely differently! This will also be shown in the fully clickable MiG 29A!
All of these are not included in the Flaming Cliffs MiG-29A! So somehow try to understand what I wrote about the Su-35, because the Su-27 is also partially based on fantasy, and I think a Su-35 light module is better than nothing!
By making Flaming Cliffs or light Su-35 five because there is a demand for it, you are not violating any law and you are creating it as the Flaming Cliffs aircraft are created partly based on fantasy, and Flaming Cliffs 3 is a successful product!

I wasn't talking about your post. I was replying to the OP wish to have more Russian jet. AFAIK there's a problem with Russian law that prevents ED to make, for example DCS Su-27 (feel free to correct me about this). That's why I joke about uncle Putin.
I don't care about how different DCS MiG-29A vs FC one. That's not my point. I'm just grateful ED eventually develops it.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

1 hour ago, Oceandar said:

I wasn't talking about your post. I was replying to the OP wish to have more Russian jet. AFAIK there's a problem with Russian law that prevents ED to make, for example DCS Su-27 (feel free to correct me about this). That's why I joke about uncle Putin.
I don't care about how different DCS MiG-29A vs FC one. That's not my point. I'm just grateful ED eventually develops it.

100%. Having a MiG-29 I can dig into is a blessing. Until we see a change of attitude in the RuMoD, we can't expect much. I say this wistfully as I look at my copy of Flanker 2.5.

2 hours ago, portman said:

The MiG-21 alone has many subvariants that it would be worth simulating. I'm just thinking of the PFM or the MF, let alone the F-13. Apart from that the current MiG-21BIS module has so many unrealistic features that - in a perfect world - it would have to be rebuilt from scratch. If we'll ever get the MiG-23 is also written in the stars at the moment, and I also don't see the MiG-25 or MiG-23BN / MiG-27 anywhere.

For me with the Fishbed? I'd want to go back to the F-13 and all the way forward to the 21-93.

Because, it'd be hilarious. Actually, scratch that, give me the SMT for the actual comedy option.

As well as redfor in general? I'm 100% serious when I say this: Yak-38M.

Edited April 26, 2024 by MiG21bisFishbedL

[Dragon1-1]

19 hours ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

 Until we see a change of attitude in the RuMoD,

It seems that it's not necessarily Russian government that's the problem, but the manufacturers. Remember, MiG-29 is getting done. It's quite possible Sukhoi is holding up Su-25 and Su-27. It's also possible that they're using "government won't let us" as an excuse not to give permission. They could be doing that for whatever inane reason, be it personal politics (go to drink vodka with the wrong manager, and others may have it in for you) or unwillingness to give a large enough bribe. ED doesn't only have to get government permission, but also an OK from the manufacturer to use their IP.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

15 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

It seems that it's not necessarily Russian government that's the problem, but the manufacturers. Remember, MiG-29 is getting done. It's quite possible Sukhoi is holding up Su-25 and Su-27. It's also possible that they're using "government won't let us" as an excuse not to give permission. They could be doing that for whatever inane reason, be it personal politics (go to drink vodka with the wrong manager, and others may have it in for you) or unwillingness to give a large enough bribe. ED doesn't only have to get government permission, but also an OK from the manufacturer to use their IP.

Very possible and, well, the IP part? That's a bit tricky, at least from my perspective. RB's Mirage 2000 is called the M-2000 to avoid issues, IIRC. And, Boeing sued EA for the use of their helicopters in games, but courts ruled they can't copyright the appearance or mention of it, since they can't just copyright a series of characters. At least in my view, though? Non-cooperation is only slightly better. Having that manufacturer provide support is pretty essential.

So, while I assume developers can go without manufacturer blessing, to me it seems like a case of "don't bother, then." Either way, you could definitely be on the money, regardless.

[Dragon1-1]

That actually depends on the country the devs are located in, and on the local IP laws (the Boeing lawsuit was in the US, for instance, but ED is incorporated in Switzerland). RB seems to be able to do both the Mirage 2000 and MiG-23 without involving their respective manufacturers, although, mind how the former was before AdA got involved with its development (that is, nothing like the real Mirage 2000). MiG-23 is supposedly being done with support from Angola or some other foreign operator. Some of ED's devs are Russian, so I'm not surprised they're not going to risk violating IP of a Russian company, especially since courts in Russia can be pretty arbitrary, and any high ups in those companies are connected up the wazoo.

Also, do keep in mind that we're talking more than appearance or series of characters. We're talking aircraft where functionality is being recreated exactly. This might involve some parts that can be copyrighted.

[ACG_Dickie]

On 4/25/2024 at 6:10 PM, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

They'll make what they can when they can source enough important documents.

Eg WarThunder forums for the F-35

[ACG_Dickie]

On 4/25/2024 at 11:20 PM, Dragon1-1 said:

We'll see what happens when ED is done, or close to done with MiG-29. If Sukhoi were to cooperate, we could see Su-25A and maybe Su-27S. Other than that, we've got the whole MiG lineup either coming or already done. Maybe if C-130 works out, a Russian transport like the Il-76 could be an option, that would certainly be its own kind of fun, and it's a lot less sensitive (though a lot more niche) than fighters.

Including the MiG-28

[MAXsenna]

On 4/27/2024 at 1:21 PM, Dragon1-1 said:

Remember, MiG-29 is getting done. It's quite possible Sukhoi is holding up Su-25 and Su-27.

I'll say it again. I'm REALLY hoping the MiG-29 will sell well!

Would be dope if we could get an FF Il-76 as opfor to the Herculees!

[Dragon1-1]

Well, they're remaking the Su-25 and offering that (still FC3) as a free aircraft. Maybe something more will come out of it, and in any case, it's a better starter than Su-25T, which is a pig and not all that fun to fly because of that. You can throw the Su-25 around a little, and even shoot down other aircraft if they make a mistake of getting into a turning fight with you.

[MAXsenna]

Well, they're remaking the Su-25 and offering that (still FC3) as a free aircraft. Maybe something more will come out of it, and in any case, it's a better starter than Su-25T, which is a pig and not all that fun to fly because of that. You can throw the Su-25 around a little, and even shoot down other aircraft if they make a mistake of getting into a turning fight with you.

How different are the Su-33 and the Su-27? Features and flight model. I'm pretty sure the FF Su-27 will come before Su-25. How feasible would an "upgrade"/rework of the Su-27 to an FF Su-33 be?

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[Dragon1-1]

Which one will come first will depend on licensing shenanigans with Sukhoi and the Russian government. Su-33 is a navalized Su-27, with pretty much the same systems, but you never know, because some government drone might "think" along the lines of "Su-27 is OK, but not Su-33, because it's got a higher number".

Edited January 31 by Dragon1-1

[MAXsenna]

Which one will come first will depend on licensing shenanigans with Sukhoi and the Russian government. Su-33 is a navalized Su-27, with pretty much the same systems, but you never know, because some government drone might "think" along the lines of "Su-27 is OK, but not Su-33, because it's got a higher number".

Yeah, I just read the newsletter. I might need to change my position. I'm very optimistic about an FF Su-25A now.

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[bies]

It depends what do you mean by Russian.

The Soviet Union 1922-1991? Yes. Many Soviet aircrafts are in DCS already. MiG-15, MiG-19, MiG-21, Mi-8, Mi-24. And many more are coming being already developed MiG-17, MiG-23, Su-17, MiG-29.

Or The Russian Federation 1991-2025? No. Russian aircrafts won't be allowed due to extremely prohibitive Russian law and during the war they became even more paranoid - ED was nearly been forced to cancel early 1980s Soviet era MiG-29 9.12. Probably they will never be any Russian 2000s fighter in DCS. Surely not modeled to have anything in common with the real aircraft. Just pure fantasy amateur-made MODs.

[Dragon1-1]

Anyone who doesn't live in Russia is free to make a Russian jet without much fuss, as long as they have the docs to do it. Unfortunately, plenty of ED employees do, in fact, live in Russia. Russian laws only matter if they can get their hands on you.

That said, docs for mid-2000s Russian jets are lacking, and either way, the only worthwhile jet they operated in that time period was Su-27SM2. All the good stuff went for export, mid-2000s were not a good time for Russia, and they were, for most part, stuck with Soviet era hardware. They began to get new tech in 2010s, but docs for that are fairly well guarded. In military operations during mid-2000s involving Russia, you'd most likely see 80s era hardware with minor updates, and maybe a small handful of newer stuff. In Georgia, for example, it was mostly Soviet gear against Soviet gear (causing quite a few friendly fire incidents on the Russian side).

[TotenDead]

9 минут назад, Dragon1-1 сказал:

Anyone who doesn't live in Russia is free to make a Russian jet without much fuss, as long as they have the docs to do it.

Apparently you don't really need any sensitive docs nowadays to make a module, do you?

9 минут назад, Dragon1-1 сказал:

Unfortunately, plenty of ED employees do, in fact, live in Russia. Russian laws only matter if they can get their hands on you.

And what happened to all the fancy european fighters? Why aren't those made by ED? European laws?

9 минут назад, Dragon1-1 сказал:

That said, docs for mid-2000s Russian jets are lacking, and either way, the only worthwhile jet they operated in that time period was Su-27SM2. All the good stuff went for export, mid-2000s were not a good time for Russia, and they were, for most part, stuck with Soviet era hardware. They began to get new tech in 2010s, but docs for that are fairly well guarded. In military operations during mid-2000s involving Russia, you'd most likely see 80s era hardware with minor updates, and maybe a small handful of newer stuff. In Georgia, for example, it was mostly Soviet gear against Soviet gear (causing quite a few friendly fire incidents on the Russian side).

Su-30MKI is Indian and made its first flight in 2000. It's very close to 30SM, but it was never in RuAF service. And there are many-many videos from air shows with 30SM  

[Dragon1-1]

23 minutes ago, TotenDead said:

And what happened to all the fancy european fighters? Why aren't those made by ED? European laws?

More that they're too obscure for ED to take a stab at them. That said, Dassault is said to be notoriously difficult to work with (though RAZBAM apparently figured things out with them), and as for the Brits, they keep a lot of things classified, even stuff like the old Harrier radar. The only dev working on their stuff was... RAZBAM again.

But hey, the Eurofighter is coming.

26 minutes ago, TotenDead said:

Apparently you don't really need any sensitive docs nowadays to make a module, do you?

Yeah, and Russian authorities don't need to prove that you actually used any sensitive docs if they think you did. Besides, the F-35 is likely to be a one time exception.

28 minutes ago, TotenDead said:

It's very close to 30SM, but it was never in RuAF service.

My point exactly. Su-30SM was not a thing before 2011, and the Su-30MKI, nice as it was, was sold to India. Russia's export customers got better gear than their own air force during mid-2000s, and the country was in a lamentable state. Lest we forget, they elected Putin for a reason, that reason being named Boris "buy me a drink" Yeltsin. It took them over a decade to shake off that hangover.

[TotenDead]

28 минут назад, Dragon1-1 сказал:

More that they're too obscure for ED to take a stab at them. That said, Dassault is said to be notoriously difficult to work with (though RAZBAM apparently figured things out with them), and as for the Brits, they keep a lot of things classified, even stuff like the old Harrier radar. The only dev working on their stuff was... RAZBAM again.

But hey, the Eurofighter is coming.

Not by ED again. Maybe it's just less about the so-called secrecy and more about profitability (no accusation here)? There's a reason why it was officially stated that any redfor development is dependent on MiG-29 sales and it's called "There're many US fanboys and not so many ru/euro ones"

28 минут назад, Dragon1-1 сказал:

Yeah, and Russian authorities don't need to prove that you actually used any sensitive docs if they think you did.

And for that we only have words and some stereotypical beliefs. Was there any case where someone was sentenced for game development (for secrecy reasons) in Russia? 

28 минут назад, Dragon1-1 сказал:

Besides, the F-35 is likely to be a one time exception.

Or not

[Dragon1-1]

1 hour ago, TotenDead said:

Not by ED again.

RAZBAM has cited "so-called secrecy" for the reason why they made the AV-8B and not the British version, too. A lot of old UK stuff is, in fact, still classified. As for the French equipment, it's not secrecy as such, as Dassault being particularly aggressive protecting its IP. Look up the drama around the Rafale mod for a civilian sim (this was a while ago) if you don't believe me. Mind you, that was a small time mod without anything combat-related. While Dassault can't get anyone thrown in jail, it can serve them a C&D and prevent them from selling your product in both US and EU. 

ED in general focuses mostly on modern aircraft. This would mean that besides another Mirage, the Rafale would probably be the best, but Dassault would be a problem with that. I suspect the fact they speak Russian and English, not French, contributes. The only British thing ED would be remotely interested in would be the Harrier, and that's already here.

1 hour ago, TotenDead said:

Was there any case where someone was sentenced for game development (for secrecy reasons) in Russia? 

No, but there was plenty of people arrested for "espionage", for equally flimsy reasons. Being connected to what is essentially a Western company doesn't help. How about you come to Russia to test that "stereotypical beliefs" for yourself? Or at least do some research on who got thrown into jail in Russia lately. You do not want to step over the line with those people.

In fact, in case your memory is that short, an ED dev was arrested on exactly this charge by the US. In fact, abducted from Georgia for that. Long story short, should that happen in Russia, getting cleared of the charges would not have been as easy (read: the only hope would be to try to outlive Putin and count on the successor subscribing to "an enemy of the last regime is my friend" line of thinking). 

1 hour ago, TotenDead said:

Or not

Highly unlikely. The F-35 was probably the most requested aircraft to add to DCS. Chances of a similar exception for something less popular are slim.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

Actually, there is a case of one person being arrested and imprisoned for trying to get classified manuals from ebay. And he was an old developer from ED. But he was sentenced and jailed in US, not in Russia...

That's a sensitive matter mates, despite the appearance of openness with all the modern modules we have.

[MAXsenna]

Actually, there is a case of one person being arrested and imprisoned for trying to get classified manuals from ebay. And he was an old developer from ED. But he was sentenced and jailed in US, not in Russia...

That's a sensitive matter mates, despite the appearance of openness with all the modern modules we have.

Didn't he actually get the manuals, while the issue was that he was going to bring them out of the country? Should have scanned them...

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[Aapje]

2 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Didn't he actually get the manuals, while the issue was that he was going to bring them out of the country? Should have scanned them...

He found an American that would receive them, and then sent them on to Georgia.

As for the other comment that only people in Russia are at risk, we've had assassinations in London, Berlin and Vienna, so if they care enough, you are not safe in the West.

[Dragon1-1]

44 minutes ago, Aapje said:

so if they care enough, you are not safe in the West.

Yeah, but for them to care that much, you have to tick them off in a very public way (like exposing their corruption or opposing the government politically), so that Putin himself takes notice. And besides, the West is now wise to Russia's tricks, so they're increasingly less likely to be successful in that.

3 hours ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

But he was sentenced and jailed in US, not in Russia...

Yeah, because Russia is known to be so much more lenient with its security-related laws than the US is. After all, one is a nest of rampant poverty and violence ran by a corrupt strongman with his oligarch cronies, and the other is, well, Russia. 

Also, the only reason he was released was that they knew he wasn't trying to get anything considered seriously sensitive, like F-22 or F-35 docs, or classified parts of the documentation. For what it's worth, he was interested in collecting physical manuals, which is why scanning wasn't an option (everything he tried to get is on the internet already). 

The reason nobody was arrested for that specific thing in Russia is that it's well known that unlike the US, they're not particularly interested in giving people a fair trial, and hence it's better to err on the side of caution when it comes to anything they might possibly consider sensitive information. 

[TotenDead]

23 часа назад, Dragon1-1 сказал:

Yeah, but for them to care that much, you have to tick them off in a very public way (like exposing their corruption or opposing the government politically), so that Putin himself takes notice. And besides, the West is now wise to Russia's tricks, so they're increasingly less likely to be successful in that.

Yeah, because Russia is known to be so much more lenient with its security-related laws than the US is. After all, one is a nest of rampant poverty and violence ran by a corrupt strongman with his oligarch cronies, and the other is, well, Russia. 

Unfortunately, it's now clear that all your statements are just based on some questionable political beliefs...

23 часа назад, Dragon1-1 сказал:

The reason nobody was arrested for that specific thing in Russia is that it's well known that unlike the US, they're not particularly interested in giving people a fair trial, and hence it's better to err on the side of caution when it comes to anything they might possibly consider sensitive information. 

Ka-50-1/2/3