Bomb Fuze Update

[Recluse]

Sorting through all the Cluster/Fuze threads:

 

Quote

I suspect FMU-140 fuze settings were meant to be:

VT1:
-user set height of burst
-HT option to tell the computer what is the height of burst

VT2:
-instant burst
-no need for HT option as the canister releases immediately

Based on the .trk posted and the fix in the recent patch, is this now CORRECT?  i.e. to use the FMU-140 fuze airburst height setting for CBU-99, select VT1 in the MFUZ setting  and INST on the EFUZ setting on the Stores page?

Edited July 24, 2024 by Recluse

[PawlaczGMD]

OK, so assuming the fuzing works correctly now, could anyone tell me how to correctly drop Rockeyes in the Hornet?

They only have a timed fuze - how to translate the fuze settings into the A/C computer to get a good solution? The Hornet asks for burst height only. 

When I tried some CCIP drops with default fuze settings, and various burst heights, the bombs just drop to the ground dead and never open. I assume the fuze was just too long, but is there a way to tell the A/C so it calculates CCIP/CCRP correctly?

[Muchocracker]

59 minutes ago, PawlaczGMD said:

OK, so assuming the fuzing works correctly now, could anyone tell me how to correctly drop Rockeyes in the Hornet?

They only have a timed fuze - how to translate the fuze settings into the A/C computer to get a good solution? The Hornet asks for burst height only. 

When I tried some CCIP drops with default fuze settings, and various burst heights, the bombs just drop to the ground dead and never open. I assume the fuze was just too long, but is there a way to tell the A/C so it calculates CCIP/CCRP correctly?

When setting up the bomb in SMS don't touch the EFUZ option it's just going to DUD the bomb. That bug got introduced with the patch and shouldn't be there it should only be MFUZ. 

[Nealius]

Is it possible you have the wrong fuse set in the payload menu? The airburst fuse has a much different nose section than the default fuse that was standard pre-update. It does not have timer options, and has an altitude function drop-down menu. 

Edited July 27, 2024 by Nealius

[Muchocracker]

5 minutes ago, Nealius said:

Is it possible you have the wrong fuse set in the payload menu? The airburst fuse has a much different nose section than the default fuse that was standard pre-update. It does not have timer options, and has an altitude function drop-down menu. 

 

no, the rockeye only has 1 fuse available and that's the time based Mk-339

[PawlaczGMD]

9 minutes ago, Nealius said:

Is it possible you have the wrong fuse set in the payload menu? The airburst fuse has a much different nose section than the default fuse that was standard pre-update. It does not have timer options, and has an altitude function drop-down menu. 

 

I just rechecked, and the Mk-20 Rockeye only has the timed fuze. The CBU-99 has both timed and altitude fuze. 

If this is as intended, I will just swap for the CBU-99 and use the altitude fuze, as the bombs seem the same otherwise.

Still, out of curiosity, I would like to know how to use the timed fuze in the Hornet - that is, how to get a reasonably accurate CCIP/RP with it.

Edited July 27, 2024 by PawlaczGMD

[Nealius]

Just checked myself, and yeah the Mk20 does not have an altitude fuse option at all. However, the Hornet (and Tomcat, and Harrier) should be using the CBU-99 anyway as that's the thermally-protected Naval variant of the bomb. 

No idea how the USAF guys are supposed to use their Mk20s, though, if there's no altitude fuse option.

[PawlaczGMD]

3 minutes ago, Nealius said:

Just checked myself, and yeah the Mk20 does not have an altitude fuse option at all. However, the Hornet (and Tomcat, and Harrier) should be using the CBU-99 anyway as that's the thermally-protected Naval variant of the bomb. 

No idea how the USAF guys are supposed to use their Mk20s, though, if there's no altitude fuse option.

I started asking this question because it is used in some campaigns (Operation Cerberus North).

Perhaps it is realistic as you fly from airports there, so I guess you're not using navy weapons.

[Nealius]

16 minutes ago, PawlaczGMD said:

Perhaps it is realistic as you fly from airports there, so I guess you're not using navy weapons.

Typically USN and USMC does use Navy-supplied weapons even when stationed on shore. At least that has been the case for ODS, OEF, and OIF. However in ODS they used Mk20s, even from carriers if the reports are accurate...I'm guessing the CBU-99/100 came about later in the '90s? I can't find a whole lot about the history of specific variants.

USN Academy training manual on weapons doesn't even have the Mk20 in it, though it does make mention of it twice. All cluster munition diagrams are for CBU-99/100, and GATOR.

Edited July 27, 2024 by Nealius

[Muchocracker]

2 hours ago, PawlaczGMD said:

I just rechecked, and the Mk-20 Rockeye only has the timed fuze. The CBU-99 has both timed and altitude fuze. 

If this is as intended, I will just swap for the CBU-99 and use the altitude fuze, as the bombs seem the same otherwise.

Still, out of curiosity, I would like to know how to use the timed fuze in the Hornet - that is, how to get a reasonably accurate CCIP/RP with it.

 

 

3 hours ago, Muchocracker said:

When setting up the bomb in SMS don't touch the EFUZ option it's just going to DUD the bomb. That bug got introduced with the patch and shouldn't be there it should only be MFUZ. 

 

[AndrewDCS2005]

10 hours ago, PawlaczGMD said:

I just rechecked, and the Mk-20 Rockeye only has the timed fuze. The CBU-99 has both timed and altitude fuze. 

If this is as intended, I will just swap for the CBU-99 and use the altitude fuze, as the bombs seem the same otherwise.

Still, out of curiosity, I would like to know how to use the timed fuze in the Hornet - that is, how to get a reasonably accurate CCIP/RP with it.

@PawlaczGMD please see attached tracks - Hornet, armed with Mk 20 Rockeye CBUs, fuzed with Mk 339 Mod 1, arm delay 1.1s, function delay PRI 2s, OPT 4s

Configured to use MFUZ=PRI, QTY=2, INT=50ft

CCIP visual designation, hit 5 of 9 targets (closely placed to show spread/hit pattern)

CCRP designated with ATFLIR, hit 5 of 9 targets on the first run, then another 2. CCRP compute seems to put the very first hit on target (slowest and lowest Mk 118?), while the rest goes forward by velocity vector at release. So, when using CCRP need to designate closest target first, the rest will be hit by ongoing spread of bomblets

 

fa18-bomb-mk20-ccip.trk

fa18-bomb-mk20-ccrp.trk

Edited July 27, 2024 by AndrewDCS2005
CCRP to be updated

[Wiggo]

On 5/24/2024 at 5:15 PM, Rissala said:

Since its impossible to add a burst height option for the VT2 setting with the MFD, the bombing computer is not told what the release HT is. This leads to bombs overshooting the target by miles.

I suspect FMU-140 fuze settings were meant to be:

VT1:
-user set height of burst
-HT option to tell the computer what is the height of burst

VT2:
-instant burst
-no need for HT option as the canister releases immediately

But they got mixed up in the code?

The bombing accuracy is also very bad especially with lofting, but I cannot really make a bug report on that without the issue above fixed first.

Does your can open with VT1? Mine doesnt. It though also does not open with VT2, nor any other setting  Am I doing something wrong?

[PawlaczGMD]

Big issues dropping GBU-12 in various campaign missions. I'm getting duds.

I'm setting efuze to inst, bombs hit the target but don't explode.

Bold Cheetah mission 2.

Green Line mission 1.

 

Very frustrating...

 

 

[Wiggo]

On 5/23/2024 at 2:52 AM, MeatServo said:

Rockeyes and CBU99's burst on launch too regardless of fuse type and setting.

Weird, I dont get the can open with any setting XD

[Muchocracker]

19 minutes ago, Wiggo said:

Weird, I dont get the can open with any setting XD

read the date

2 hours ago, PawlaczGMD said:

Big issues dropping GBU-12 in various campaign missions. I'm getting duds.

I'm setting efuze to inst, bombs hit the target but don't explode.

Bold Cheetah mission 2.

Green Line mission 1.

 

Very frustrating...

 

 

if you don't post a track nobody can diagnose what's going on 

[Wiggo]

On 7/15/2024 at 2:51 AM, Muchocracker said:

You don't set the release height of the bomb in the jet. You're just matching the release height set on the bomb. You change it in rearm menu. 

So, does this mean that with cbu99 in hornet, I choose the fuse that has burst altitude setting (in mission editor/payload settings). And then in flight I choose MFUZE to VT1 and put it in same altitude with HT setting. EFUZE to OFF(?). And thats how the can should open in height that has been chosen? 

[Muchocracker]

11 minutes ago, Wiggo said:

So, does this mean that with cbu99 in hornet, I choose the fuse that has burst altitude setting (in mission editor/payload settings). And then in flight I choose MFUZE to VT1 and put it in same altitude with HT setting. EFUZE to OFF(?). And thats how the can should open in height that has been chosen? 

Don't even touch the EFUZ, it should already be off. Only select MFUZ and VT1 for the AGL burst height.

[PawlaczGMD]

49 minutes ago, Muchocracker said:

read the date

if you don't post a track nobody can diagnose what's going on 

I've already found it's a bug with transferring new fuzes to old missions. You need to rearm or all bombs might/will be dud.

[LastRifleRound]

2 hours ago, Muchocracker said:

read the date

if you don't post a track nobody can diagnose what's going on 

Track? My dude your own training missions dud all their bombs. Just fly the JDAM one and tell me how your BDA goes. Bet you don't pass.

Tracks should be for bugs that are hard to recreate or dubious. For bugs that happen in the normal course of use and run headlong from a foot ball field away and superbowl punt kick you right in the face like a mountain of cocaine to al pacino's nose, I think the whole "track or it didn't happen" thing is a bit overwrought.

@PawlaczGMD is right, every mission you have to re-load the bombs, either by re-arming on the ramp, or just changing the loadout in the ME (if you can get at it). Just pull the bombs off and re-add them, and they should work again. I'm guessing instead of supplying default fuses on missions (my own custom missions had the same issue), they just supply bombs that can't accept fuses at all (and therefore I suppose have none).

[Muchocracker]

1 hour ago, LastRifleRound said:

Track? My dude your own training missions dud all their bombs.

For one I'm not an ED employee nor did i make the training missions. 

Second that's not what you said you're getting the issue on. You specified campaigns. 

 

1 hour ago, LastRifleRound said:

Tracks should be for bugs that are hard to recreate or dubious. For bugs that happen in the normal course of use and run headlong from a foot ball field away and superbowl punt kick you right in the face like a mountain of cocaine to al pacino's nose, I think the whole "track or it didn't happen" thing is a bit overwrought.

No. They are also for determining if the issue is user error. Or if problem is caused by a different bug.

I dont know if those missions are air starts or ground starts and if you reloaded the bombs (a solution that i was the first to put out there for the record, you can check my posts), i dont know what your weaponeering process is, i dont know what fuses are loaded and what settings were used, i dont know the SMS selections you made. There are a million different variables that can cause the end effect of your bombs not detonating. That is why tracks are asked for when reporting issues. "My bombs are dud'ing on X and Y missions and i set X" is not enough for me to tell what the root cause is. 

 

Edited July 28, 2024 by Muchocracker

[Wiggo]

1 hour ago, LastRifleRound said:

Track? My dude your own training missions dud all their bombs. Just fly the JDAM one and tell me how your BDA goes. Bet you don't pass.

Tracks should be for bugs that are hard to recreate or dubious. For bugs that happen in the normal course of use and run headlong from a foot ball field away and superbowl punt kick you right in the face like a mountain of cocaine to al pacino's nose, I think the whole "track or it didn't happen" thing is a bit overwrought.

@PawlaczGMD is right, every mission you have to re-load the bombs, either by re-arming on the ramp, or just changing the loadout in the ME (if you can get at it). Just pull the bombs off and re-add them, and they should work again. I'm guessing instead of supplying default fuses on missions (my own custom missions had the same issue), they just supply bombs that can't accept fuses at all (and therefore I suppose have none).

Yeah. And I totally dont understand why ED just cant TELL here how fusing is correlated with user interface. In wags video many things are just assumed. Also what is "plugged"? That wags seems to also think everybody to know, heey "maby i will just use plugged everywhere here.." umm plugged?  This is not bug reporting every time. To be honest, sometimes I even am afraid to ask things in forums, in fear that ED comes and thumbs my topic or I get some nerdrage into me.  I dont even know what fuze modes to select in hornet with default GBU. Do I select inst or delay? What is the difference with those selections in HN sms page and in mission editor? And when / if I use mission editors triggers-> how do I corralate that with my selections in hornets display before dropping the bomb. F-16 was maby littlebit weird selection anyways for that vid, but thats ofc another case. (as in f-16 pretty much I never thumble with fuzing :P)

Edited July 28, 2024 by Wiggo

[Wiggo]

3 hours ago, Muchocracker said:

Don't even touch the EFUZ, it should already be off. Only select MFUZ and VT1 for the AGL burst height.

K. Thanks alot! I will try with those. Wags should make same vid with Hornet  

[Wiggo]

1 hour ago, Wiggo said:

K. Thanks alot! I will try with those. Wags should make same vid with Hornet  

This worked thanks!  Now, atleast with ccip (did not try anything else yet) had to just change the fuse to airbursting one (the one which has a selection for height in msn editor) and then when I choose VT1 it was actually even already at 1500ft. Did not have to change anything.  Dropped randomly and the can opened nicely. Just a side note: In which case I would use EFUZE with clusters? None?

Edited July 28, 2024 by Wiggo

[rob10]

5 hours ago, Muchocracker said:

No. They are also for determining if the issue is user error. Or if problem is caused by a different bug.

I dont know if those missions are air starts or ground starts and if you reloaded the bombs (a solution that i was the first to put out there for the record, you can check my posts), i dont know what your weaponeering process is, i dont know what fuses are loaded and what settings were used, i dont know the SMS selections you made. There are a million different variables that can cause the end effect of your bombs not detonating. That is why tracks are asked for when reporting issues. "My bombs are dud'ing on X and Y missions and i set X" is not enough for me to tell what the root cause is.

THIS!  I can't count the number of times where people have insisted they didn't need a track because it was soooo simple to reproduce and people spent a bunch of time trying to reproduce and couldn't and in the end the OP finally realized (or finally posted a track that showed the issue) they had missed something simple.  THAT is why a track is asked for even if it seems simple.

This is a legitimate question (not meant to be snarky, I really do want to understand): why are people so resistant to posting a track?  It's pretty simple to do.  Most of the time people probably spend more time typing why they shouldn't need to post a track than it would have taken to post it.  So why not?  I really am curious.

[LastRifleRound]

12 hours ago, Muchocracker said:

For one I'm not an ED employee nor did i make the training missions. 

Second that's not what you said you're getting the issue on. You specified campaigns. 

 

No. They are also for determining if the issue is user error. Or if problem is caused by a different bug.

I dont know if those missions are air starts or ground starts and if you reloaded the bombs (a solution that i was the first to put out there for the record, you can check my posts), i dont know what your weaponeering process is, i dont know what fuses are loaded and what settings were used, i dont know the SMS selections you made. There are a million different variables that can cause the end effect of your bombs not detonating. That is why tracks are asked for when reporting issues. "My bombs are dud'ing on X and Y missions and i set X" is not enough for me to tell what the root cause is. 

 

 

This is why I hate tracks. You didn't even fully read my post. Look at my post history. You'll find loads and loads of reports with tracks and detailed analysis that hasn't amounted to much. Hows the AG radar designation being inversely affected by aircraft movement coming along? Lemme guess, need another track? I mean it's only 4 years old.

It's ED's own Hornet JDAM mission. It's an air start. For people trying to learn the game. Just test it as is. You know, the thing that's supposed to happen before major updates release.

I honestly can't wrap my head around launching a big feature like bomb fuses, and then simply not testing the largest entry point for new users, training missions.

I'm not hating on you but the users don't work for you. You're supposed to deliver a functioning product whether we leave tracks or not. There is no more open beta, and the Hornet is not in EA, so there are no excuses.

The bombs dud in the training missions. Simple as. It's your (ED) fault because you didn't check them and update the armaments, and you need to fix them. You should do this whether we can provide a notarized bill passed by congress or not.