How to win at BFM in the Mighty F-4E Phantom

[MAD-MM]

Usually never fly jets, but though give fantastic F4 Phantom a try, allways fall in love with great Heatblur quality.
Was dogfighting in "guns" only the F5 Tiger aka MIG28 what is a tough one but the most fun when you ask me.
 

 

Edited June 4, 2024 by MAD-MM

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

On 5/25/2024 at 10:37 AM, GrmlZ said:

Having not flown vs AI Mig-21s in a while and being used to some tall tales on the forums, i went and tested this vs some AI Mig-21s, and damn!

Was this always THIS bad? The AI Mig-21 can indeed sustain a 9G turn indefinitely, while speeding up and gaining altidude.

That is of course also bad news for The F-4E as it means the historic Mig-21bis vs F-4E matchup does not exist in DCS in singelplayer at this point, as the AI Mig-21bis has nothing in comon with a Mig-21, or even just an airplane.

 

Knock the 21 AI down to "Rookie" and it does alleviate it some what. I've heard the same applies to the F1, but I can't comment as I'm not at all knowledgeable about it. All I know is that it's fast fun.

[Doc3908]

9 hours ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

Knock the 21 AI down to "Rookie" and it does alleviate it some what. I've heard the same applies to the F1, but I can't comment as I'm not at all knowledgeable about it. All I know is that it's fast fun.

I'm not sure why people are complaining about the AI so much. It's very predictable and, as someone already noted earlier on this thread, it flies reactively relative to what you do, which means you can force it to do stupid things that most people would not do. Here's a video I made specifically to demonstrate how you can get the AI (yes, set to "Ace") to fly basically the same pattern every time. (Pardon my lack of gun skills...)

 

[irisono]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Doc3908:

I'm not sure why people are complaining about the AI so much. It's very predictable and, as someone already noted earlier on this thread, it flies reactively relative to what you do, which means you can force it to do stupid things that most people would not do. Here's a video I made specifically to demonstrate how you can get the AI (yes, set to "Ace") to fly basically the same pattern every time. (Pardon my lack of gun skills...)

 

And where do you see a learning process in BFM with such nonsensical behavior?

[SgtPappy]

2 hours ago, Doc3908 said:

I'm not sure why people are complaining about the AI so much. It's very predictable and, as someone already noted earlier on this thread, it flies reactively relative to what you do, which means you can force it to do stupid things that most people would not do. Here's a video I made specifically to demonstrate how you can get the AI (yes, set to "Ace") to fly basically the same pattern every time. (Pardon my lack of gun skills...)

 

Agreed on some points but it's pretty easy to see why IMO people aren't enjoying the AI.

For some, it's a matter of not being able to defeat the AI. For me, it's that these "ace" AI crash into the ground more than half the time. And you're right - they make other mistakes that no human decently familiar with air combat could make. I don't enjoy any of that.

Add to this the unrealistic flight modeling of the aircraft that hold too many G's and can often climb vertically at 130 kn etc and you have a very unsatisfying experience.

At the end of the day, it's simply bad AI that is the problem, and some of the symptoms are that some people are having lots of trouble against AI using techniques that work against people and more realistic flight models OR some people are finding it incredibly easy to take advantage of the AI's poor choices. Either one is unrealistic and if I wanted to fly against unrealistic AI using unrealistic techniques, I'd hop on Ace Combat (a very fun and vastly different experience but not what I want from DCS).

 

[=475FG= Dawger]

1 hour ago, SgtPappy said:

Agreed on some points but it's pretty easy to see why IMO people aren't enjoying the AI.

For some, it's a matter of not being able to defeat the AI. For me, it's that these "ace" AI crash into the ground more than half the time. And you're right - they make other mistakes that no human decently familiar with air combat could make. I don't enjoy any of that.

Add to this the unrealistic flight modeling of the aircraft that hold too many G's and can often climb vertically at 130 kn etc and you have a very unsatisfying experience.

At the end of the day, it's simply bad AI that is the problem, and some of the symptoms are that some people are having lots of trouble against AI using techniques that work against people and more realistic flight models OR some people are finding it incredibly easy to take advantage of the AI's poor choices. Either one is unrealistic and if I wanted to fly against unrealistic AI using unrealistic techniques, I'd hop on Ace Combat (a very fun and vastly different experience but not what I want from DCS).

 

What I have noticed is that AI do different things in different aircraft, instead of having all of those different things available in a single aircraft. Very simplistic modeling. In any case, I know (for me) fighting AI, no matter how awesomely modeled would become uninteresting in a short period of time. 

With humans, you generally don't know what to expect unless you know who you are fighting. AI isn't going to be that way in my lifetime.

[SgtPappy]

1 hour ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

What I have noticed is that AI do different things in different aircraft, instead of having all of those different things available in a single aircraft. Very simplistic modeling. In any case, I know (for me) fighting AI, no matter how awesomely modeled would become uninteresting in a short period of time. 

With humans, you generally don't know what to expect unless you know who you are fighting. AI isn't going to be that way in my lifetime.

100% agreed. There's no competition when it comes to facing real people. But AI could be so much better and we all know this.

[Elf1606688794]

On 5/28/2024 at 7:40 AM, =475FG= Dawger said:

You really shouldn't think in terms of specific maneuvers in the fight. Your thinking should be much more granular and aimed at solving your immediate range, angle and aspect problem while monitoring how the bandit is reacting.

First, thanks for the Tacview, I've seen it a couple times and will watch it a few more as well. If you're open to suggestions then one I'd make is to either A) use voice to narrate what you're doing or B) use text more often to describe what/why you're doing what you're doing.

Second, in regards to the part of your post I snipped. That's how I flew in AirWarrior, Aces High, and some game by Microsoft that I forget it's name now. In AirWarrior I beat an 8 on 1, Aces High a 5 on 1 but I couldn't begin to tell you how I did it. I just flew while trying to solve those immediate problems even if I never consciously chose to do so. I simply reacted to what was going on around me. I can say that in the 8-1 I had an altitude advantage and my opponents never managed to take that from me. In the 5 on 1, those dweebs had EVERY advantage you can think of, speed, altitude, numbers, climb rate, acceleration, blah blah blah. I was flying the slowest aircraft in the planeset, (Hurrcane Mk IIC) and off the top of my head they had a D-9, Spit 9, 109-F4 and two others. Here in DCS? This is a whole new ball game and while this challenge seems like trying to climb Mount Everest with no shoes, I believe I can meet that challenge, sooner or later. 

Third, the rest of your post? That's exactly the sort of thing I was hoping to see when I opened this thread, even if I don't understand all of it just yet. Thank you. 

 

[Elf1606688794]

On 5/25/2024 at 8:54 PM, lxsapper said:

I was looking through my Tacviews of tonights fights. Found the one that is from the fight in the video and another one that was pretty decent too. So I'll leave them here:

F-4E_IA_Caucasus_BFM MiG21_0.zip.acmi 796.68 kB · 1 download F-4E_IA_Caucasus_BFM MiG21_1.zip.acmi 584.44 kB · 1 download

I got these downloaded, I've been running behind irl and I'm catching up today. 

[Kalasnkova74]

Here's my latest track file. I'm a long way from 8th TFW material (thus the "Rookie" bandit setting & visibility tags), but I did take down the F-5E bandit with a Sparrow & land smooth enough for Jester to appreciate my work. A good day at the "office". 

F-4EJ v F-5 Kill.miz.trk

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

14 hours ago, Doc3908 said:

I'm not sure why people are complaining about the AI so much. It's very predictable and, as someone already noted earlier on this thread, it flies reactively relative to what you do, which means you can force it to do stupid things that most people would not do. Here's a video I made specifically to demonstrate how you can get the AI (yes, set to "Ace") to fly basically the same pattern every time. (Pardon my lack of gun skills...)

 

Neat, it's still an inaccuracy in the software that needs to be fixed.

It doesn't matter if it's predictable or not. It needs to be addressed, period.

Aside from that, don't be too hard on yourself about the gunnery. The Phantom feels more stiff in Yaw than others, at least to me. But, I'm also used to much lighter fighters like the MiG-21 itself or the F-5E.

Edited June 5, 2024 by MiG21bisFishbedL

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

Also, may be my lack of skill, the reticle is not very accurate, radar locked I mean, and the lag time between squeesing the trigger to actual burst does not help either… Also long burst mode is bad.

[=475FG= Dawger]

16 hours ago, Elf1606688794 said:

First, thanks for the Tacview, I've seen it a couple times and will watch it a few more as well. If you're open to suggestions then one I'd make is to either A) use voice to narrate what you're doing or B) use text more often to describe what/why you're doing what you're doing.

Second, in regards to the part of your post I snipped. That's how I flew in AirWarrior, Aces High, and some game by Microsoft that I forget it's name now. In AirWarrior I beat an 8 on 1, Aces High a 5 on 1 but I couldn't begin to tell you how I did it. I just flew while trying to solve those immediate problems even if I never consciously chose to do so. I simply reacted to what was going on around me. I can say that in the 8-1 I had an altitude advantage and my opponents never managed to take that from me. In the 5 on 1, those dweebs had EVERY advantage you can think of, speed, altitude, numbers, climb rate, acceleration, blah blah blah. I was flying the slowest aircraft in the planeset, (Hurrcane Mk IIC) and off the top of my head they had a D-9, Spit 9, 109-F4 and two others. Here in DCS? This is a whole new ball game and while this challenge seems like trying to climb Mount Everest with no shoes, I believe I can meet that challenge, sooner or later. 

Third, the rest of your post? That's exactly the sort of thing I was hoping to see when I opened this thread, even if I don't understand all of it just yet. Thank you. 

 

As I mentioned, my YouTube is purely for my own archive or a specific training topic internal to my group. Not meant for the general public. 
 

Over the past couple decades, I have toyed with the idea of a more formal BFM school for online fighter pilots since I was taught by and regularly fly with some real world BFM guys. 
 

I always come to the same conclusion. 99.9% of online flyers are looking for magic tricks or magic airplanes. When I tell folks BFM requires lots of dedicated practice, they aren’t much interested. 
 

So we keep it in house for those actually interested. And even that isn’t much anymore. Until the Phantom release, I hadn’t flown a DCS sortie since late last year. 
 

Glad you got something out of the video. 
 

Cheers

4 hours ago, VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants said:

Also, may be my lack of skill, the reticle is not very accurate, radar locked I mean, and the lag time between squeesing the trigger to actual burst does not help either… Also long burst mode is bad.

Its a little button intensive but a 40 mil depression in A/G mode works well for A/A if your gunnery skills are pretty good. I don’t bother with gyro or radar gun modes in any module TBH. 

[SgtPappy]

17 hours ago, Elf1606688794 said:

First, thanks for the Tacview, I've seen it a couple times and will watch it a few more as well. If you're open to suggestions then one I'd make is to either A) use voice to narrate what you're doing or B) use text more often to describe what/why you're doing what you're doing.

Second, in regards to the part of your post I snipped. That's how I flew in AirWarrior, Aces High, and some game by Microsoft that I forget it's name now. In AirWarrior I beat an 8 on 1, Aces High a 5 on 1 but I couldn't begin to tell you how I did it. I just flew while trying to solve those immediate problems even if I never consciously chose to do so. I simply reacted to what was going on around me. I can say that in the 8-1 I had an altitude advantage and my opponents never managed to take that from me. In the 5 on 1, those dweebs had EVERY advantage you can think of, speed, altitude, numbers, climb rate, acceleration, blah blah blah. I was flying the slowest aircraft in the planeset, (Hurrcane Mk IIC) and off the top of my head they had a D-9, Spit 9, 109-F4 and two others. Here in DCS? This is a whole new ball game and while this challenge seems like trying to climb Mount Everest with no shoes, I believe I can meet that challenge, sooner or later. 

Third, the rest of your post? That's exactly the sort of thing I was hoping to see when I opened this thread, even if I don't understand all of it just yet. Thank you. 

 

You were one of those dreaded Hurricane IIC pilots people feared back in the day weren't you??

I remember seeing FM2 or Hurricane IIC pilots in the axis vs allies mid war servers and thinking "glad they're on my team!"

A little OT for this thread but a buddy of mine and I cut our teeth as a Hurricane and Spitfire duo in AH2 and now we're here.. good times...

[Elf1606688794]

4 hours ago, SgtPappy said:

You were one of those dreaded Hurricane IIC pilots people feared back in the day weren't you??

I sure hope so!

[Elf1606688794]

4 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

I always come to the same conclusion. 99.9% of online flyers are looking for magic tricks or magic airplanes. When I tell folks BFM requires lots of dedicated practice, they aren’t much interested. 
 

So we keep it in house for those actually interested. And even that isn’t much anymore. Until the Phantom release, I hadn’t flown a DCS sortie since late last year. 
 

Glad you got something out of the video. 

I'm prepared to learn and practice. I did read Shaw's book a couple decades ago, I'll have to read it again after I read about OODA. 

[SgtPappy]

I played with a friend of mine who is certainly better than I am but we are close enough in skill that more of our fights end up in a draw where we run out of fuel over those which either of us are victorious.

Some lessons learned in DCS so far:

- With the Viggen, F-5E and MiG-21, the F-4E will generally beat them in a 2 circle - especially when clean, it's not even close. With missiles, it evens out more. 

- The Viggen, F-5E and MiG-21 have better 1 circle performance (especially the Viggen) but the F-4E is a little better in climbing turns since it can use that extra P_s and should strive to force the fight upwards.

- The F-5 and Mirage F1 are the weakest of this plane set in terms of T/W and struggle a lot when the fight goes up. But all planes other than the F-4 gain a lot when in diving turns since they can pull more AoA without worrying about losing speed. This is a dangerous thing for the F-4 to follow. Really, ANY kind of scissors is a bad day for the F-4 against these planes except maaaaybe the Mirage F1. I still have to face the Mirage more to conclude anything.

To summarize, it does seem that the jets are all close enough in performance that if neither pilot makes a mistake, they'll end up in a draw. At first this disappointed me but I'm feeling a bit better with this result because if you win - especially in BFM practice with another human - you were the better pilot in that engagement. If you're even then chances are someone will bingo first. Usually the F-4 but all the jets of the time have similar endurance.

 

My next steps during online practice will be the following with the goal of making the best move possible even if it may not result in a win, and then maybe moving onto more risky and aggressive tactics. I'd like to avoid giving them good rear-quarter missile shots since rear-aspect IR missiles were the weapon of the era (please provide feedback where possible):

1) Remember to come into the first merge at ~0.95 Mach or ~550 KIAS whichever is greater

a) Be aggressive whenever you have this excess energy

2) Focus on bringing the fight upwards in climbing turns and avoid the temptation to following these other mid-Cold War jets in diving turns or any scissors.

Note: I suppose diving turns look a lot like scissors... Any thoughts on this?

3) When beating the enemy in a 2 circle, they will often tighten the turn if you're about to get a shot and then reverse as you overshoot their flightpath

a) Try to prevent overshooting the flightpath by using a vector roll in the opposite direction to the turn, or a high yo-yo

b) If the bandit sees you doing either and takes the opportunity to reverse, go into an oblique loop to force the fight into basically an egg-like, somewhat vertical 2 circle since they will be at an energy disadvantage.

Edited June 7, 2024 by SgtPappy

[_BringTheReign_]

I am in love with the F-4E. Every day there is something new to learn, and improve upon from yesterday. I have recorded every multiplayer session I have participated in and learned so much in the process - the F-4E, (like we all anticipated based on the books and articles and manuals we read in advance of release) is very capable in the vertical fight. Even more so if the bandit also commits to the vertical with you. Making MiG 21's and Mirages run out of energy and fall out of the sky is a form of entertainment I never new existed when I was flying the F-5.

I compiled my first 5 engagements into a short discussion video. I hope to make many more of these! 

 

 

[Mr. Crow]

On 5/24/2024 at 9:39 PM, Tophatter14 said:

I bought Fighter Combat in Pensacola as a flight student and read it as a Tomcat RAG student.  I re-read it when I was squadron CO.  

Situations (energy, altitude, SA) will always dictate immediate post merge gameplan decisions, no question.  When you’ve bought the merge, you have the rest of your life to figure out how to win or survive.  
 

But there are simple hard and fast rules -that were learned the hard way -which should be followed when possible.  You fight your best fight, not your adversary’s.   It’s what I learned and what I taught over multiple tours as a flight instructor and Adversary Tactics instructor at NAWDC.   The F-4 has a well documented history of what did and didn’t work against 19’s and 21’s.  
 

So for the OP- keep practicing with egg energy management and always be fangs out.  You lead the dance and make your opponent react to your tactics at every instance.   Don’t ever get sucked into their playground.  Keep at it.  

And I’m not going to bother about the egos/imaginary skill levels of video game “fighter pilots” nor video game flight models.  

This hit me hard. Thanks, man. If not for you, I would have given up. There are very few posts in this forum thanking other people (IMO), so I take this opportunity to sincerely thank you.

Yes... The AI is buggy. Yes... It lacks real physics. Yes... It should have been fixed years ago. Yes... It's detrimental to DCS as a whole...

However, there are other ways to look at it: for instances, by 1972-1973, USAF and US Navy pilots would routinely encounter expert pilots, who were fighting the air war from its beginning. So yeah... There were some individuals on the other side who would be able to take the Mig-21 above and beyond it's limits. Not to the level the AI uses it... But yeah... It'd be hard to get a good shooting solution and/or a kill.

So I practiced, I got killed. I raved at the idiot who said he could easily take down a Mig-29 with an F-4 (don't get me started on this... you are not helping...). And then, I read through every post in this tread and every book I had regarding dogfights (I love Osprey Publishing!). And after hours and hours, I reached a level in which I could consistently kill the AI (up to veteran difficulty).

Here are my 10 principles (not rules) to win the fight against the AI (and to be a good F-4E front gunner):

1. As mentioned in the quoted post: be fangs out all the time! Not just when you are gunning the AI down... All the time! It does not matter if the UFO is glued to your six o'clock. The aim is to kill the enemy. There are no second bests in this game.

2. Manage you energy with extreme care, fight the egg maneuver and know when to spend you precious energy. Be very conscious of your AoA.

3. Try and make the fights as vertical as possible (between 30 and 55 degrees worked great, more than that if and when extremely necessary).

4. Get into the fight at around 450 to 500 kts, you are going to need every Newton of energy you can get.

5. Use God's G (i.e., the extra G you get when rolling inverted at or near the top of the egg) and reach you maximum turning radius. Cheat back at the Mig. If you ain't cheating, you ain't fighting good enough.

6. Regain you energy on the way down (unload the jet as much as you dare).

7. If you hear the AoA tone, you are loosing energy fast. Ideally, do not get past the first tone.

8. If a Mig is glued to you 6 o'clock, extend the speed breaks and try to get the AI on a rolling or flat scissors. As soon as it begins to "dance" (you will know when you see it...) and begin to gain on you, AB on, watch it go pass you, hear the fox 2 tone and take the kill.

9. You will only get one to two chances at best! Remember, you will be loosing a lot of energy. Keep doing it too long and you will die or reach a draw and run out of fuel. The AI will not loose energy on the long term. It is not programmed to do so.

10. Use other types of missiles and experiment. Aim-7E-2 and Aim-9J both work great for me. I tried the Aim-9 JULI as well. Works even better.

Bonus principle: If you loose track of the enemy, you are probably on your way to being shot down (i.e., loose sight, loose the fight). Try to extend and reengage.

Hope to have helped.

You can do it!

Here are some Tacview examples. One is a surprisingly easy fight I had. Just went vertical, the Mig tried to compensate and lost a whole lot of energy at the top. The other is a scissor defense. Enjoy.

Tacview-20240609-185205-DCS-My Gulf F-4E ACM.zip.acmi Tacview-20240609-122238-DCS-My Gulf F-4E ACM.zip.acmi

Edited June 10, 2024 by Mr. Crow

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

In echo to @SgtPappy above, here is a vid to aid the excellent discussions so far:

 

[Tophatter14]

On 6/9/2024 at 6:05 PM, Mr. Crow said:

This hit me hard. Thanks, man. If not for you, I would have given up. There are very few posts in this forum thanking other people (IMO), so I take this opportunity to sincerely thank you.

Yes... The AI is buggy. Yes... It lacks real physics. Yes... It should have been fixed years ago. Yes... It's detrimental to DCS as a whole...

However, there are other ways to look at it: for instances, by 1972-1973, USAF and US Navy pilots would routinely encounter expert pilots, who were fighting the air war from its beginning. So yeah... There were some individuals on the other side who would be able to take the Mig-21 above and beyond it's limits. Not to the level the AI uses it... But yeah... It'd be hard to get a good shooting solution and/or a kill.

So I practiced, I got killed. I raved at the idiot who said he could easily take down a Mig-29 with an F-4 (don't get me started on this... you are not helping...). And then, I read through every post in this tread and every book I had regarding dogfights (I love Osprey Publishing!). And after hours and hours, I reached a level in which I could consistently kill the AI (up to veteran difficulty).

Here are my 10 principles (not rules) to win the fight against the AI (and to be a good F-4E front gunner):

1. As mentioned in the quoted post: be fangs out all the time! Not just when you are gunning the AI down... All the time! It does not matter if the UFO is glued to your six o'clock. The aim is to kill the enemy. There are no second bests in this game.

2. Manage you energy with extreme care, fight the egg maneuver and know when to spend you precious energy. Be very conscious of your AoA.

3. Try and make the fights as vertical as possible (between 30 and 55 degrees worked great, more than that if and when extremely necessary).

4. Get into the fight at around 450 to 500 kts, you are going to need every Newton of energy you can get.

5. Use God's G (i.e., the extra G you get when rolling inverted at or near the top of the egg) and reach you maximum turning radius. Cheat back at the Mig. If you ain't cheating, you ain't fighting good enough.

6. Regain you energy on the way down (unload the jet as much as you dare).

7. If you hear the AoA tone, you are loosing energy fast. Ideally, do not get past the first tone.

8. If a Mig is glued to you 6 o'clock, extend the speed breaks and try to get the AI on a rolling or flat scissors. As soon as it begins to "dance" (you will know when you see it...) and begin to gain on you, AB on, watch it go pass you, hear the fox 2 tone and take the kill.

9. You will only get one to two chances at best! Remember, you will be loosing a lot of energy. Keep doing it too long and you will die or reach a draw and run out of fuel. The AI will not loose energy on the long term. It is not programmed to do so.

10. Use other types of missiles and experiment. Aim-7E-2 and Aim-9J both work great for me. I tried the Aim-9 JULI as well. Works even better.

Bonus principle: If you loose track of the enemy, you are probably on your way to being shot down (i.e., loose sight, loose the fight). Try to extend and reengage.

Hope to have helped.

You can do it!

Here are some Tacview examples. One is a surprisingly easy fight I had. Just went vertical, the Mig tried to compensate and lost a whole lot of energy at the top. The other is a scissor defense. Enjoy.

Tacview-20240609-185205-DCS-My Gulf F-4E ACM.zip.acmi 1.62 MB · 1 download Tacview-20240609-122238-DCS-My Gulf F-4E ACM.zip.acmi 502.22 kB · 1 download

 

Anytime!

 

 

[aztec01]

On 6/9/2024 at 6:05 PM, Mr. Crow said:

Here are some Tacview examples. One is a surprisingly easy fight I had. Just went vertical, the Mig tried to compensate and lost a whole lot of energy at the top. The other is a scissor defense. Enjoy.

Tacview-20240609-185205-DCS-My Gulf F-4E ACM.zip.acmi 1.62 MB · 2 downloads Tacview-20240609-122238-DCS-My Gulf F-4E ACM.zip.acmi 502.22 kB · 2 downloads

 

To be fair, in #205 you got outrageously lucky.  He kept energy up and was repeatedly screaming around the circle towards your J-79's, and how he didn't stick a missile in you is beyond me.  You looked to be nearly "falling out of the air slow".  Your two saving graces were 1.)you accelerate MUCH faster than I thought you'd be able to and 2.) He ditched out of the fight at the end and gave you his tail to shoot at.  I am surprised, that earlier, with as much overtake as he had on you why he didn't just go vertical (even obliquely) and just pounce again.  You didn't so much outfight him, but you ran out his programming and outlasted him.  Still, the kill in #238...M'mmmmMmmmm, chef's kiss!

[SgtPappy]

On 6/10/2024 at 4:33 AM, VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants said:

In echo to @SgtPappy above, here is a vid to aid the excellent discussions so far:

 

Really good video.

I think a lot of us are really just used to turn fighting but if you look at it, US planes generally excelled in speed ever since WW2 and the main strategy since then has been to drain your opponents of speed and drop on them like a sledgehammer.

Mustangs, Lightnings, Thunderbolts, Hellcats and Corsairs did this in the Pacific vs Zeros. Bf 109s and Fw 190s used these strategies vs Spitfires. Then Australian Spitfire pilots had to learn the hard way to do the same vs the Zero as well...

A lot of us are now in this stage with the F-4 since most of us are used to the extreme maneuverability and highly-rewarding 1 circle strategies learned in 4th gen jets where reliable HOBS and radar-homing missiles punish anyone trying to 2 circle or extend. Energy fighting is STILL dogfighting, but the idea that 1 circling IS dogfighting seems to be more persasive among jet pilots online.

I'm convinced that F-4 pilots need to go back to the WW2 mindset and use missiles and radar as bonuses, not the primary means of winning a fight.

[Mudhen SE]

On 6/2/2024 at 9:19 AM, nikoel said:

It's good to know that he struggles with Jester being mute in dogfights as well. I believe this is because his "dogfighting radius" is set too close, so he stops his bandit callouts when you need them the most 

Jester doesn't callout speed in dogfight, right?

Edited June 16, 2024 by Mudhen SE

[G.J.S]

2 hours ago, Mudhen SE said:

Jester doesn't callout speed in dogfight, right?

 

Not as yet, hopefully that will be implemented as well as altitude call-outs which WSO/Nav/RIO should perform when situation requires it. WVR fights being a prime example. Altitudes (own) would be most helpful below 15-20k.

Edited June 16, 2024 by G.J.S