Not so stable?

[shagrat]

Am 27.5.2024 um 10:30 schrieb YoYo:

When the missile is fired, it should also tremble and maybe even move back slightly due to the recoil

Why? There is no recoil. It is a missile, not a bullet. Similar to "recoiless rifle", RPG launchers or your average ATGM, the missile accelerates propelled by the rocket motor, not compression of gas against a breach... it simply slides of the rail.

That's not saying it looks a bit too stable, but that decision by the devs has already been explained, and I definitely favor their train of thoughts, as I find George way to complicated to operate from a CP/G position.

[zerO_crash]

6 hours ago, shagrat said:

Why? There is no recoil. It is a missile, not a bullet. Similar to "recoiless rifle", RPG launchers or your average ATGM, the missile accelerates propelled by the rocket motor, not compression of gas against a breach... it simply slides of the rail.

That's not saying it looks a bit too stable, but that decision by the devs has already been explained, and I definitely favor their train of thoughts, as I find George way to complicated to operate from a CP/G position.

There will always be a certain level of recoil, even on so-called recoilless rifles/launchers. While firing in low quantity, the recoil is very low, however, fire a volley of unguided rockets (Hydra/S-series), and you'll notice that the combined recoil is actually noticeable.

[Dangerzone]

20 hours ago, YoYo said:

Btw. If no autohover so please to think about adding some kind of human behavior before release

No - please don't.

In saying that, I'm not saying don't include this. I'm all for looking into this as an option, but not the "before release" part. I would hate to see a module that (from everything I'm seeing with the video's coming out) looks like it's 2 weeks announcement may indeed be a week or so away, held up for a month or more over something as minor as this. By all means, consider making this change in the future, but not at the expense of the release please. 

[YoYo]

14 hours ago, shagrat said:

Why? There is no recoil. It is a missile, not a bullet. Similar to "recoiless rifle", RPG launchers or your average ATGM, the missile accelerates propelled by the rocket motor, not compression of gas against a breach... it simply slides of the rail.

That's not saying it looks a bit too stable, but that decision by the devs has already been explained, and I definitely favor their train of thoughts, as I find George way to complicated to operate from a CP/G position.

Also, the weight of the missile has an impact, after launch, any such light aircraft should bend in the opposite direction where the weight is greater. this is a normal situation. In the case of AI control there is absolutely no movement. I think that in the Gazelle there is more vibration in the cockpit when the missile is launched however Id like to see myself how it looks in KW after the release, for now these are just impressions from the videos.

Edit: new video.

A slight shaking is visible (what is good), but the helicopter hangs like a tree trunk, as if on active pause in DCS, it looks bad.

Edited June 1, 2024 by YoYo

[YoYo]

2 hours ago, Dangerzone said:

No - please don't.

In saying that, I'm not saying don't include this. I'm all for looking into this as an option, but not the "before release" part. I would hate to see a module that (from everything I'm seeing with the video's coming out) looks like it's 2 weeks announcement may indeed be a week or so away, held up for a month or more over something as minor as this. By all means, consider making this change in the future, but not at the expense of the release please. 

No one is talking about postponing the release, they are doing what they think is right even after the release. There was information about 2 weeks (from 22.05), so it looks like the patch plus Kiowa should appear in the next week and let's stick to that, so very close! It's possible that they have free time now if the model is ready, if it doesn't affect the release at all, then why not?

Bigger problem is that they did very strange circle / rose manager for AI management, not like „WSAD” functions (so like for Apache, Mi-24 or kind of Jester) but …. you need differents buttons for … each option! This is crazy. Casmo mapped 11 buttons only for basic functions (up, down, hover on, off etc) - you can notice it on his video page before. You need the all HOTAS buttons only for steering of AI if you want to map all functions for AI (22 buttons). Very bad idea. The management wheel works very well in the way like George or Petro, so this idea doesn't make sense to me (buttons for each different functions, not WSAD for all or rose like for Jester). This is another thing to change (as priority too) if we are talking about AI managment and behavior.

Edited June 1, 2024 by YoYo

[shagrat]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb YoYo:

Also, the weight of the missile has an impact, after launch, any such light aircraft should bend in the opposite direction where the weight is greater. 

Not "also", but "only" because of the weight... there's no recoil from the missile.

[shagrat]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb YoYo:

No one is talking about postponing the release, they are doing what they think is right even after the release. There was information about 2 weeks (from 22.05), so it looks like the patch plus Kiowa should appear in the next week and let's stick to that, so very close! It's possible that they have free time now if the model is ready, if it doesn't affect the release at all, then why not?

Bigger problem is that they did very strange circle / rose manager for AI management, not like „WSAD” functions (so like for Apache, Mi-24 or kind of Jester) but …. you need differents buttons for … each option! This is crazy. Casmo mapped 11 buttons only for basic functions (up, down, hover on, off etc) - you can notice it on his video page before. You need the all HOTAS buttons only for steering of AI if you want to map all functions for AI (22 buttons). Very bad idea. The management wheel works very well in the way like George or Petro, so this idea doesn't make sense to me (buttons for each different functions, not WSAD for all or rose like for Jester). This is another thing to change (as priority too) if we are talking about AI managment and behavior.

 

I personally love the concept! The George AI modes are problematic in a stress situation, because you need to monitor which mode you are in and maybe switch the mode (from hover to combat) if you want to evade an ATGM.

For commanding the copilot I need accelerate/decelarate, turn left/right and the hover command on a 5-way hat switch. Add a modifier for up/down and drift left/right and that should be enough to have basic control in a combat situation. Anything else may go to keyboard or voice attack...

I would like the option to click the "HUD-Interface", though, as an additional option.

[YoYo]

38 minutes ago, shagrat said:

I personally love the concept! The George AI modes are problematic in a stress situation, because you need to monitor which mode you are in and maybe switch the mode (from hover to combat) if you want to evade an ATGM.

Personally, I have never had a problem using it (SP and MP) and I completely disagree with the accusation that the George or Petro AI options are worse than this idea, everything goes smoothly, without any hassle. This solution here could be a problem, it takes all the buttons on your joystick just to control only the basic A.I. functions. 11 buttons to map basic functions (22 in the total) instead of 4 plus on/off for all is the fundamental difference (generally you can have it under one HAT and you have everything). Of course, George and Petro need practice of user use, but everything is logically arranged, it has never been a problem for me in quick operation in online or in single player missions. However, if you are using it in an unexplored environment where you have doubts about the threat, you are using the wrong tactic. Then no AI is turned on, you have to be in the movement and ready to dodge all the time, but this is about tactics and mission planning in the threat area, so that's a different topic. I'm afraid that even if you press a separate button - to LEFT, it will still be too late to avoid being hit (I can bet even). Here you need to adopt a different tactic, without pilot AI Im affraid.

Edited June 1, 2024 by YoYo

[zerO_crash]

Russian military pilot on the recoil - as stated by me:

 

 

[Dangerzone]

6 hours ago, YoYo said:

No one is talking about postponing the release, they are doing what they think is right even after the release.

Sorry I misunderstood you when you said "If no autohover so please to think about adding some kind of human behavior before release"  (emphasis mine). Thanks for clarifying. 

[YoYo]

Yep, could be nice to have it before but it depends from the developer, we can have only own wishes :). The release cannot be delayed because the release date was already theoretically set for June 5 (but subject to change TM ;)).

46 minutes ago, Dangerzone said:

Sorry I misunderstood you when you said "If no autohover so please to think about adding some kind of human behavior before release"  (emphasis mine). Thanks for clarifying. 

 

[trev5150]

Keep in mind that Casmo may be using Active Pause for the purposes of content creation.

[Hiob]

8 minutes ago, trev5150 said:

Keep in mind that Casmo may be using Active Pause for the purposes of content creation.

That is true. However, Casmo, as well as Polychop, already acknowledged, that the AI-Pilot is basically „on rails“. It isn’t meant as a simulated pilot or immersion element, but as a „simple“ UI-element to enable single players to work the weapon systems from the copilots seat.

No judgement here. Just relaying. From the videos I will probably like how it is worked, but admittedly I probably would like a little bit more „lively“ movement of the chopper. (the stale air is one of the few pet peeves I have with DCS anyway)

[ThorBrasil]

I'm not confident about buying the Kiowa after watching the videos about the Kiowa. I'll wait for feedback from the community and then I'll consider buying it again. The Kiowa's external 3D model and textures seem below the standard of the latest releases. If you watch the videos and look at the external model, you'll see that there are many things that don't have the same level of detail as an Apache. Now, I don't know about the systems, because the manual hasn't been released yet so that we can actually know what the Kiowa offers. Even the Kiowa's .50 "ammunition belt" doesn't have animation for a full-price aircraft with no discount at launch. You can watch the CasmoTV video about the .50 and you'll see that there's no animation when firing the .50. The external damage model isn't modeled in the videos either, but they said it will be implemented at launch. I'll only believe it when I see it. Regarding the AI, I agree with YoYo.

Edited June 2, 2024 by ThorBrasil

[shagrat]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb ThorBrasil:

I'm not confident about buying the Kiowa after watching the videos about the Kiowa. I'll wait for feedback from the community and then I'll consider buying it again. The Kiowa's external 3D model and textures seem below the standard of the latest releases. If you watch the videos and look at the external model, you'll see that there are many things that don't have the same level of detail as an Apache. Now, I don't know about the systems, because the manual hasn't been released yet so that we can actually know what the Kiowa offers. Even the Kiowa's .50 "ammunition belt" doesn't have animation for a full-price aircraft with no discount at launch. You can watch the CasmoTV video about the .50 and you'll see that there's no animation when firing the .50. The external damage model isn't modeled in the videos either, but they said it will be implemented at launch. I'll only believe it when I see it. Regarding the AI, I agree with YoYo.

 

You are aware that is NOT a belt, but a flexible feeder system?! ...and actually the munition transport inside(!) the feeder is animated (at least it was in one of the recent videos).

But honestly that's the least of my personal priorities. Though I like the details, I am more interested in the Flight Model (that seems to be top notch according to Casmo, a real life KW pilot) and the cockpit I actually look at 99% of the time and then the avionics and internal systems.

If my focus would be on creating cinematic DCS video, my priorities may be different, but for simulating flying and fighting in the KW, I definitely prefer top notch FM and systems.

[Targanon]

Why should they induce a fack drift. its nmot meant to be an AI mdeling a Pilot.

its a perfect Pete a pilots best friend.. to take the controls while you do some CPG stuff.

it comes with it own Drawbacks thats the inability to dodge incoming thats up to you..
This module is AWesome and meant for 2 people and best and more fun with 2 people... even while learning my buds and I went out and had some fun with it.. no AI pilot there it was all hands on deck.
sory bust ya bubble leav eit along its fine.. great for a single player to have a go too

 

[YoYo]

49 minutes ago, Targanon said:

Why should they induce a fack drift. its nmot meant to be an AI mdeling a Pilot.

I'm sure you've never flown in a helicopter in your life if you think that is correct . You are most likely not looking for a challenge and realism, but simple to use and no complications. So, maybe the DCS is a wrong place? I dont know. 

The AI task in this case is to SIMULATE the other crew member, not to make an second "active pause" enabled by the user.  We have active pause alredy in the DCS settings, it looks exaclty the same.  There is nothing like fack drift in real life. KW is additionally controlled only by people, you don't have anything like an auto hover. You might as well say that why an enemy AI swerves and dodges bullets during combat, or why it shoots, is because it's an AI. No, AI is intended to simulate human behavior, not to be 100% perfect in the all cases. Moreover, even the autopilot is influenced by all external factors (wind, pressure, precipitation) and it is never super stable, never. Even the famous Ecureuil swings while hovering. This topic is about AI, not about multicrew which is governed by different laws.

Additionally, do you want to accuse that ED did a bad job on the Mi-24 and AH-64 (and perhaps CH-47), since there is drift and different effects when using AI? It's not super stable there, let me remind you.

Edited June 6, 2024 by YoYo

[LuseKofte]

I have not come so far in it. I just learn right seat first. Will not bother too much with the rest. If it is on rails due to single player I am not quite with them. I fly SP and want authentic behaviour. As far as it can be done 

To this day I never used auto hoover in Gazelle. And I had it from the start. I did expect this module to be stable. So I knew this also will be a number two chopper for me. But as Dutch I find it very well done so far

[YoYo]

Coming back to the information about recoil, please, see it:

It is clearly visible that the KW lost stability after firing the Hellfire. This is also not modeled.

Edited June 6, 2024 by YoYo

[BIGNEWY]

Folks please remember treat each other with respect when posting. 

 

[Hiob]

1 hour ago, YoYo said:

I'm sure you've never flown in a helicopter in your life if you think that is correct . You are most likely not looking for a challenge and realism, but simple to use and no complications. So, maybe the DCS is a wrong place? I dont know. 

The AI task in this case is to SIMULATE the other crew member, not to make an second "active pause" enabled by the user.  We have active pause alredy in the DCS settings, it looks exaclty the same.  There is nothing like fack drift in real life. KW is additionally controlled only by people, you don't have anything like an auto hover. You might as well say that why an enemy AI swerves and dodges bullets during combat, or why it shoots, is because it's an AI. No, AI is intended to simulate human behavior, not to be 100% perfect in the all cases. 

1 hour ago, YoYo said:

Coming back to the information about recoil, please, see it:

It is clearly visible that the KW lost stability after firing the Hellfire. This is also not modeled.

 

 

I‘m not seeing what you are suggesting. There are shots that shows the Chopper being completely unfazed by the launch and others that seem to introduce some instability. But you don’t know the weather/wind conditions in these shots or if the pilot is operating a switch with the other hand or whatever…..

I don’t think this clip proves anything tbh.

If the launch of rocket from a tube launcher would cause some notable recoil, soldiers operating MANPADS would topple over regularly.

Edited June 6, 2024 by Hiob

[YoYo]

25 minutes ago, Hiob said:

I don’t think this clip proves anything tbh.

Importantly, weather conditions allow for the hover, right? So it is not difficult to estimate, and you can see that the helicopter felt it quite well. You can clearly see how much the rear will move up and down. The weight of the missile may also have an impact on this.

25 minutes ago, Hiob said:

If the launch of rocket from a tube launcher would cause some notable recoil, soldiers operating MANPADS would topple over regularly.

You can't compare MANPAD to Hellfire, it has a different caliber, recoil and speed (almost twice as much). This is about the situation that it should simply shake more and that's it (someone simply wrote here that there is no any recoil), but the main problem is the "active pause effect" in the hover mode that does not take into account any factors, because unfortunately that is what it looks like. You can do short test if you can, set the crosswind to 30 kts, turn on AI hover and see what it looks like. 

We have T1000 on board .

Edited June 6, 2024 by YoYo

[LuseKofte]

2 minutes ago, YoYo said:

You can't compare MANPAD to Hellfire

You can, you can even compare the Hellfire with panzerfaust used in ww2. It’s backwards launch counter the ballistics. Because it is more powerful the heavier the rocket is. 
I seen Swedish system fire from a tripod built almost like a camera tripod. And they are bigger than manpads. 
I have no doubts this chopper and every other we got do not equate the real thing. Neither do the environment it flys in. I am sure this can be done better. But I struggle hard to see your point just 24 hours after it’s released. 

[zerO_crash]

Everything can be compared to everything. Manpads, however, have two stages, which negates some of the initial recoil (and thrust plume). There is a impulse motor meant to eject the missile from the tube, and at a safe distance/orientation from the operator, followed by launching of the actual sustainer motor. In comparison, Hellfire engages its main thrust immediately upon fire. There are more differences overall, which make the comparison off.

 

Well, the words of Nick Grey were such that DCS should represent the flying qualities of aircraft in a realistic manner. Each and every module is stated as the best available, and in the progress of becomming yet more realistic as a representation. While things are missing (i.e. being worked on), simulators have taken over for practical training and exercise in just about any domain where approach to realism is necessary. 
 

 

I definitely see the points that YoYo is making. This isn't a matter of time after release, but rather constructive criticism where it is due. I'll remind all that when SA-342 Gazelle released, there were already early indicators that something was off (FM). While OH-58D is a really solid product, there is definitely room for improvement and feedback.