F-4E Phantom - Landing the RHINO

[Igor4U]

During Slightly-Fast Final Approaches (3+ Degree Glide-Slope, 1,000 fpm Descent Rate) - Using the Default Cockpit Sitting Height (Eye Position), I have trouble keeping the Approach End of the Runway Environment in Sight - I'm Unable to see over the Nose of the Aircraft.

Raising my Eye Position (Sitting Height) by what I estimate to be about 3-4 Inches allows me to keep the Runway in Sight until well into the Round-Out/Flare where you transition to Peripheral Vision to the Judge Height above Touchdown.

Maybe the Trick is to stay Steep & Fast (like Landing the MiG-21).

Wondering if this was the same in the Real Aircraft - Did Front Seaters have to raise their Ejection Seats Up to Land the F-4 ?

[Igor4U]

I shoulda read the below Post before my first Flight:

Mastering your First Phantom Flight
https://forum.dcs.world/topic/348817-mastering-your-first-phantom-flight/

"Seat full up for landing. It’s difficult to see over the nose, so you may need to use RCTL+RSHFT+8 to raise cockpit camera".

 

But still wondering if Pilots had to that in the Real Aircraft ?

[IronMike]

6 hours ago, Igor4U said:

I shoulda read the below Post before my first Flight:

Mastering your First Phantom Flight
https://forum.dcs.world/topic/348817-mastering-your-first-phantom-flight/

"Seat full up for landing. It’s difficult to see over the nose, so you may need to use RCTL+RSHFT+8 to raise cockpit camera".

 

But still wondering if Pilots had to that in the Real Aircraft ?

They did, and btw you dont need to raise your cockpit camera, just raise the seat. The controls for that are next to your right knee, and you can also bind them if you want.

[Igor4U]

Moron (Sorry - I mean More On) F-4 Landings:

We all know that F-4 Landings were considered a Thing of Beauty in the Eyes of the Aircrews who Wrestled the RHINO back to Terra Firma. 

So, I thought I'd Practice Up a Bit on my F-4 Landings to be One with the Rhino.    Spent a couple hours beating up the Overhead Pattern at Nellis AFB (Las Vegas - Baby!).

The Wise-Guy in the Back (a.k.a. 'Jester'), made innumerable snide, and snarky comments on any landing that didn't touchdown with less than 100 fpm sink rate.

The Aircraft was made to routinely Touchdown at 700 fpm descent rate for the Fellers out at Sea.    And most every Phantom Touchdown I've seen on Land looked somewhere between fairly Firm, and a Solid THUD; estimating they were landing with at least half the Navy's Sink Rate.

The Only Landings where I got a Compliment from Jester were the Ones I Touched down smoothly with (probably) less than 100 fpm Sink Rate.

But how does one land the Phantom Softly ?  

A Normal Onspeed F-4 Approach & Landing (19.2 Units AoA) provides very little excess energy (Pitch authority to Round-Out/Flare); and coupled with the Ground Effect's tendency to Pitch Down, the Stick Movement to counter that depletes a few last Knots resulting with more of a THUD, rather than Kissing the Runway.

There were two techniques I tried that did provide a Smooth Touchdown much closer to a Normal Aircraft's highly coveted perfect Landing.  Here's How:

1.  Fairly Simply - Carry 5-10 extra Knots above Onspeed KIAS.    That allows the extra energy needed to conventionally Round-out and Flare to a Smooth Touchdown.   Touchdown Speed remains the Same, but one might want to use a slightly shorter aimpoint to account for the extra distance that a Flare will add to touchdown spot.

2.  Fly Onspeed, and as you attempt to break the Descent rate (just before touchdown) with Back-Stick Pressure, Add some Power - Goose the Throttles - that will assist you in leveling Off (with a Touch of Float) prior to Touchdown - and result (many times) in a Smoother Landing. 

Like to have some other DCSW Rhino Drivers try these techniques out, and leave some Feedback - TANKS in Advance !

* Lastly - a Time-Tested ROT - 1,000 F-4 Landings from now - You'll (and me too will) be Better at Landing the Phantom.
===================================================================

Reference
Landing & Shutdown Tutorial for the F-4E Phantom by Heatblur in DCS World
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhIj_udzGUY

If you watch the VVI at Touchdown (and accounting for some VVI Lag), I'd estimate the Touchdown happens at about 400 fpm Descent Rate.
 

[BeforeBroadband]

Jester puts on his official Olympic Judge hat once you're on final approach. Anything but the most tender touchdown rustles his Jimmies. Worst part is sometimes he makes several criticisms in a row.

Edited May 31, 2024 by BeforeBroadband

[GaryIKILLYOU]

1 hour ago, BeforeBroadband said:

Jester puts on his official Olympic Judge hat once you're on final approach. Anything but the most tender touchdown rustles his Jimmies. Worst part is sometimes he makes several criticisms in a row.

 

The funniest thing to me is I've done landings that were anything but the book, and he loved them, as long as my sink rate was just under the needle on touchdown. 

[Longiron]

I fly the pattern just above the first aoa beeps, usually puts me in the 200kn +- 15kn for weight and bring backs.

Never have to adjust  the seat.

Last 1/2 mile I start aiming short of the numbers while tickling the throttles, then it's walking them back with a nice smooth flair, maybe a little bump if it settles to quick.

At touchdown the runway is at the bottom of the hud glass in the little gap between the glass and dash.

This puts my mains on the 1000ft to 1500ft marks at 160kn to 170kn and if I get it just right I can sometimes hold the nose off but usually don't, then it's chute out if it's short runway or just let it run out.

I've found the f4 super easy to land like this, even with 15kn crosswinds using wing low.

[WinOrLose]

Is there a reference point on the jet to put on the runway or is final just flown by gut/experince?

[1qsb28]

On 5/31/2024 at 9:25 AM, Igor4U said:

and coupled with the Ground Effect's tendency to Pitch Down, the Stick Movement to counter that depletes a few last Knots resulting with more of a THUD, rather than Kissing the Runway.

FWIW, in the real world with a swept wing jet the technique to arrest an on speed sink just prior to touchdown is to reduce AoA.  High AoA on a swept wing creates considerably more induced drag than lift, therefore increasing pitch will drastically increase drag while only moderately increasing lift and result in a THUD.  Conversely, dumping the nose a degree or two will lose a bit of lift but will dump a considerably higher amount of induced drag...combined with ground effect this slight pitch down in the flair results in a feather light touchdown ie "Rolling it on"

No Idea if DCS models the aerodynamics that closely, but give it a try.  PS. rolling it on like that is mostly a pilot ego thing...every IP/LCA Ive ever had wanted the jet planted firmly on the aiming point...

[Kalasnkova74]

On 5/31/2024 at 11:36 AM, GaryIKILLYOU said:

The funniest thing to me is I've done landings that were anything but the book, and he loved them, as long as my sink rate was just under the needle on touchdown. 

My findings were the same. 
I earned my first landing compliment from Jester yesterday. Basically, I followed the book (fly the tone etc) until just above the runway threshold. Then I pitched up slightly, and just before touchdown bumped the throttles a tad to cut the decent rate. Hello greased landing , instead of the Navy-style “plonk” that books a snarky comment from the back