Understanding CAGE-only with Sparrows

[wasserschorle]

I can't get my head around the whole CAGE-logic in connection with the AIM-7 at close range.

My previous knowledge tells me that the Sparrow needs a solid lock (STT-wise) to guide and intercept, but with the CAGE function in the F4 it seems this is wrong?

Manual "3.11.3. Boresight and Cage Condition" states that a Sparrow can be fired in CAGE-only (no CAA) when the piper is positioned at the target.
Done that and works nearly everytime in close range with limited G's.

Question is: how, why?

What exactly happens when the trigger is pulled?
From where does the Sparrow get its guidance, when (at least in my world) no solid guidance data is transmitted?
Since the guidance somehow works better as with CAA-lock (ground, air is locked and not the target itself) why is the CAA even necessary?

[Gunfreak]

36 minutes ago, wasserschorle said:

I can't get my head around the whole CAGE-logic in connection with the AIM-7 at close range.

My previous knowledge tells me that the Sparrow needs a solid lock (STT-wise) to guide and intercept, but with the CAGE function in the F4 it seems this is wrong?

Manual "3.11.3. Boresight and Cage Condition" states that a Sparrow can be fired in CAGE-only (no CAA) when the piper is positioned at the target.
Done that and works nearly everytime in close range with limited G's.

Question is: how, why?

What exactly happens when the trigger is pulled?
From where does the Sparrow get its guidance, when (at least in my world) no solid guidance data is transmitted?
Since the guidance somehow works better as with CAA-lock (ground, air is locked and not the target itself) why is the CAA even necessary?

So you can fire of a Sparrow in cage mode simply holding the pipper over  the enemy aircraft and fire with no lock at all? And the missile guides?

Edited May 29, 2024 by Gunfreak

[PhantomHans]

8 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

So you can fire of a Sparrow in cage mode simply holding the pipper over  the enemy aircraft and fire with no lock at all? And the missile guides?

 

Unless I'm mistaken this is basically the F-4's version of "Flood" mode.

Your radar points straight ahead broadcasting.  If you fire an AIM-7, itll home in on the biggest reflection it sees.  If the target maneuvers out of the illuminated area, the missile goes dumb.

 

Basically its a manual lock where you point the whole jet to steer the radar.

[wasserschorle]

27 minutes ago, PhantomHans said:

Unless I'm mistaken this is basically the F-4's version of "Flood" mode.

Your radar points straight ahead broadcasting.  If you fire an AIM-7, itll home in on the biggest reflection it sees.  If the target maneuvers out of the illuminated area, the missile goes dumb.

 

Basically its a manual lock where you point the whole jet to steer the radar.

Funny thing: I had occasions where the missile would still track even after the target broke hard to one side and was greatly out of the radar boundaries. May also be some kind of bug, but who knows.

[PhantomHans]

9 minutes ago, wasserschorle said:

Funny thing: I had occasions where the missile would still track even after the target broke hard to one side and was greatly out of the radar boundaries. May also be some kind of bug, but who knows.

Depending on the target its possible the missile went into HOJ mode, Home On Jam, and followed a jammer signal to the target...Or maybe your side lobes did you a favor and kept him illuminated but I don't think that should work.

 

MAAAYYYBE one of your wingman if present had it locked and it was able to follow that signal but I don't think that should work either. 

[GrmlZ]

This should help:

 

Edited May 29, 2024 by GrmlZ

[DrGarantia]

For a normal lock in cage mode do a short press of the Jester context button with the enemy on your nose, unlike a long press in normal scan, for a lock. Jester still need to lock the target for you in this mode, unless you press the NWS button, then it will try to lock automatically, I found out that asking for jester is much more reliable and locks further away than waiting for vertical scan to pick something.

Jester will lock on the target on your boresight, even if they are more than 5nm from you at the time, as long as you shoot inside the 5nm range limit in cage mode the sparrow will guide normally.

 

Edit, the boresight mode in the video above can only be entered from the backseat, Jester don't support this mode right now, cage works mostly the same, but there is the 5nm limit for a firing solution.

Edited May 29, 2024 by DrGarantia

[wasserschorle]

43 minutes ago, DrGarantia said:

For a normal lock in cage mode do a short press of the Jester context button with the enemy on your nose, unlike a long press in normal scan, for a lock. Jester still need to lock the target for you in this mode, unless you press the NWS button, then it will try to lock automatically, I found out that asking for jester is much more reliable and locks further away than waiting for vertical scan to pick something.

Jester will lock on the target on your boresight, even if they are more than 5nm from you at the time, as long as you shoot inside the 5nm range limit in cage mode the sparrow will guide normally.

 

Edit, the boresight mode in the video above can only be entered from the backseat, Jester don't support this mode right now, cage works mostly the same, but there is the 5nm limit for a firing solution.

 

I know, but the CAGE-only method does not require any further input from Pilot or WSO/Jester. The question is still standing.

[PhantomHans]

1 hour ago, wasserschorle said:

I know, but the CAGE-only method does not require any further input from Pilot or WSO/Jester. The question is still standing.

Okay think of it like this...

 

The radar is a flashlight that lights up the target so the missile can see it.

If you "lock" the target, the computer keeps your light on the target for you so the missile can see it.

If you go to CAGE and keep the pipper on or near the target, the radar just shines its flashlight ahead of you like the headlights on a car.  As long as you turn to keep the target in the light, the missile can still see it, even without locking on. 

[mytai01]

It works like FLOOD mode in the F-15, I guess. That just hoses radiation at the target and it guides to the nearest target.

[Smyth]

The RIM-7 Sea Sparrow was originally deployed with no tracking radar at all. CW illumination was provided by a manually aimed turret.

Consider boresight AIM-7 launches without lock as an air-launched Sea Sparrow. The F4 is your manually aimed turret.

[Gunfreak]

How do you even fire a Sparrow without a proper lock?

[Cab]

5 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

How do you even fire a Sparrow without a proper lock?

Interlock switch to OUT

[Gunfreak]

6 minutes ago, Cab said:

Interlock switch to OUT

Tired that. Missiles never even try and hit the enemy

[PhantomHans]

9 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

Tired that. Missiles never even try and hit the enemy

Are you in CAGE mode with the CW illumination switch on, and if so, are you keeping your targets in the gunsight?

[Gunfreak]

12 minutes ago, PhantomHans said:

Are you in CAGE mode with the CW illumination switch on, and if so, are you keeping your targets in the gunsight?

Yes, as much as possible against the AI on a dogfight. Sparrow jus go ballistic off the rail

[PhantomHans]

That should be how to employ a Sparrow in Cage or "Flood" mode but there's no guarantee of a hit.  I'm pretty sure I have scored hits using it like that but I prefer to have Jester lock the target before launch.

[MBot]

Perhaps Aspect Switch in the WSO pit not set accordingly? For shots without lock, the Sparrow needs to be told a range of closure rates to look for.

Edited May 30, 2024 by MBot

[Dragon1-1]

1 hour ago, Gunfreak said:

Yes, as much as possible against the AI on a dogfight. Sparrow jus go ballistic off the rail

You're not going to hit much in a dogfight when using a Sparrow like that. Even with a lock, it's not particularly suited to tight turning engagements. It was a common complaint in Vietnam, too, even the "Dogfight Sparrow" was dubious in WVR. They preferred Sidewinders for a reason. Try using the flood mode against bombers flying straight and level, you may score a hit.

[lennycutler]

I have tested the Sparrow with the following and get consistent Sparrow hits, with a Orbiting large Aircraft.

 

1.  Heater Selected

2. Cage Pressed

3. Radar Scan shows a Vertical Bar

4. Select Sparrow

5. Keep the target in the Hud Pipper

6. Fire Sparrow.

I do not use the CAA button, and my hits are on the target at 8 miles from my aircraft.

 

I assume this is a correct method of using Flodd mode - and seems better than attempting to use the CAA button method.

 

Not sure if this is the intended behavior by Heatblur.

[Migparts]

Yes - this actually works, but the target must be quite stately like a big cargo plane. If it is a small agile manoeuvring fighter the sparrow will miss. 

Edited May 30, 2024 by Migparts

[lennycutler]

Just tried the same mission several times using a Mig=19P - As long as I counted out 4-5 Seconds before I launch the Sparrow, I hit the Mig-19 consistantly - at about 9 miles from the point I pressed the trigger.

 

Seems like a winning technique to me even if a regular lock on the target is more ideal.

[r4y30n]

3 hours ago, Migparts said:

Yes - this actually works, but the target must be quite stately like a big cargo plane. If it is a small agile manoeuvring fighter the sparrow will miss. 

 

I imagine that's why later aircraft like the F-14 have a separate flood antenna with a pattern closer to the vertical scan/CAA.