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Loosing controls if engines are down

GKOver

By GKOver
in DCS: AH-64D

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Go to solution Solved by bradmick,

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GKOver

GKOver

Posted
Posted

I can‘t believe that it is realistic, that you loose any control of the apache if the engines are being shutdown or destroyed.

 

With the Huey it is also completely different.

Antix70

Antix70

Posted
Posted

Isn't there an emergency hydraulics button just above the Power Control Levers?

I don't think the cyclic and collective are directly connected to flight control surfaces like they are in the huey.

  • Like 1
LorenLuke

LorenLuke

Posted
Posted
17 hours ago, Antix70 said:

I don't think the cyclic and collective are directly connected to flight control surfaces like they are in the huey.

If they were, I don't think the SCAS and FMC systes  would work the way they do. 

  • Like 2
Antix70

Antix70

Posted
Posted

From Bradmick...
"The push pull tubes connect to arms on the servos and the servos are connected to the non rotating swash plate. There is zero direct connection to the swash plate from any of the flight controls. It’s why a loss of hydraulics results in a complete loss of control"

And...

"Yes, [Emergency Hydraulics] provides 30-41 seconds provided you move the flight controls at a 1hz rate, i.e. one full deflection per second. Now, since 100% of the SCAS is gone, you’ll be moving the flight controls pretty violently"

  • Like 1
admiki

admiki

Posted
Posted
20 hours ago, GKOver said:

I can‘t believe that it is realistic, that you loose any control of the apache if the engines are being shutdown or destroyed.

 

With the Huey it is also completely different.

I am guessing you are not entering auto rotation fast enough.

Apache has a quite low inertia rotor, while Huey has high inertia rotor system, giving you more time.

19 minutes ago, Antix70 said:

From Bradmick...
"The push pull tubes connect to arms on the servos and the servos are connected to the non rotating swash plate. There is zero direct connection to the swash plate from any of the flight controls. It’s why a loss of hydraulics results in a complete loss of control"

And...

"Yes, [Emergency Hydraulics] provides 30-41 seconds provided you move the flight controls at a 1hz rate, i.e. one full deflection per second. Now, since 100% of the SCAS is gone, you’ll be moving the flight controls pretty violently"

This does not make sense, hydraulic pumps are run by transmission not engines. OP says engines out, not hydraulics out.

For test, I killed engines at 15k feet and autorotated all the way to the ground. It took me 4 minutes, during which I was messing around with controls. No problems.

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krazyj

krazyj

Posted
Posted
52 minutes ago, admiki said:

I am guessing you are not entering auto rotation fast enough.

Apache has a quite low inertia rotor, while Huey has high inertia rotor system, giving you more time.

This does not make sense, hydraulic pumps are run by transmission not engines. OP says engines out, not hydraulics out.

For test, I killed engines at 15k feet and autorotated all the way to the ground. It took me 4 minutes, during which I was messing around with controls. No problems.

not always the case but cant say for the Apache. 

bradmick

bradmick

Posted
Posted

I don’t know of any, because if the engines quit, there’s no power to the hydraulic pumps. Attaching them to the transmission means that during an auto the pumps have power. The rotor back drives the transmission. This is also the case for the generators, which are also attached to the transmission.

  • Like 1
JetCat

JetCat

Posted
Posted

The Apache has an emergency hydraulics button? Awesome I love that dedication to realism! Is this button functional in the sim?

Hobel

Hobel

Posted
Posted
vor 8 Minuten schrieb JetCat:

The Apache has an emergency hydraulics button? Awesome I love that dedication to realism! Is this button functional in the sim?

yes

JetCat

JetCat

Posted
Posted

What happens if I cannot land in under 30 seconds? No more hydraulics? Is death eh I mean giving up one of my nine lives unavoidable?

  • ED Team
Raptor9

Raptor9

Posted
  • ED Team
Posted
1 hour ago, JetCat said:

What happens if I cannot land in under 30 seconds? No more hydraulics?

You and your fellow crewmember become passengers. The only flight control left will be using manual stabilator control, since it is slewed using electrical servos, not hydraulics; assuming you still have electrical power of course.

Afterburners are for wussies...hang around the battlefield and dodge tracers like a man.
DCS Rotor-Head

GKOver

GKOver

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Sorry, but this behaviour looks for me unrealistic. 

If the engines are not working anymore, there should be some energy in the batteries being left.

 

Very strange: if the engines are off and the Apache goes down, several dozens of messages „armed“ appear….

admiki

admiki

Posted
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, JetCat said:

What happens if I cannot land in under 30 seconds? No more hydraulics? Is death eh I mean giving up one of my nine lives unavoidable?

Are we still talking about engines out or hydraulics out?

This thread is about engines out.

Edited by admiki
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admiki

admiki

Posted
Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, JetCat said:

This thread is about losing control because the hydraulics go out when the engines flame out.

That's the problem, they don't.

Not in real life and not in DCS.

OP did not state how control is lost and it was Antix that deflected it to hydraulics. Engine out does not mean you are losing hydraulics.

Edited by admiki
  • Like 3
GKOver

GKOver

Posted
  • Author
Posted (edited)

I have never faced a loss of the engines in the Apache with this Armed messages while electronics or hydraulics are still usable (for some). 

 

If the engines are not running anymore, EVERYTHING is out of order on my PC in the Apache. And I can‘t believe such a behaviour in the real thing.

And ‚Armed‘ is being displayed on the screen.

Edited by GKOver
admiki

admiki

Posted
Posted
40 minutes ago, GKOver said:

I have never faced a loss of the engines in the Apache while electronics or hydraulics are still usable (for some). 

 

If the engines are not running anymore, EVERYTHING is out of order on my PC in the Apache. And I can‘t believe such a behaviour in the real thing.

And ‚Armed‘ is being displayed on the screen.

 

that means you are not entering autorotation. It's not a bug, it's user error.

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GKOver

GKOver

Posted
  • Author
Posted (edited)

How can I use autorotation if I cannot control the cyclic anymore……….

Edited by GKOver
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bradmick

bradmick

Posted
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Posted

I just did a series of power off autos, and other than the rotor not recovering to 101% (known issue with the fm that's been there since the begining), and the aircraft dropping airspeed because of the loss of Nr, she'll sit with the rotor at 93% or so and around 60 to 70 knots, the generators and hydraulics don't kick offline. Without seeing what you're doing, i'm inclined to lean towards user error. If you're going to insist on doing things like this, then step 1 is lower the collective, step 2 is bring the power levers to idle then off after getting stabilized in the auto. The rotor in the real helicopter will bleed rapidly if you keep the collective in while bringing the power levers back. This is the way helicopters work.

  • Like 1
admiki

admiki

Posted
Posted
16 hours ago, bradmick said:

I just did a series of power off autos, and other than the rotor not recovering to 101% (known issue with the fm that's been there since the begining), and the aircraft dropping airspeed because of the loss of Nr, she'll sit with the rotor at 93% or so and around 60 to 70 knots, the generators and hydraulics don't kick offline. Without seeing what you're doing, i'm inclined to lean towards user error. If you're going to insist on doing things like this, then step 1 is lower the collective, step 2 is bring the power levers to idle then off after getting stabilized in the auto. The rotor in the real helicopter will bleed rapidly if you keep the collective in while bringing the power levers back. This is the way helicopters work.

To make it "more realistic" (aka surprise engines malfuntion) since this is a sim anyway so I can always have another go, I will first go to engines idle, recover and shutting engines off while recovering. Actually, at 10k feet I do get rotor overspeed (with full load). Never am I losing generators or hydraulics, until final pull to cushion the landing. 

GKOver

GKOver

Posted
  • Author
Posted (edited)

I have attached a track in which I have provoked a crash of both engines: I just have made the engines crash by  running them with too high RPM. The same like if the engine would be destroyed by a FLAK/AAA.

Result: the Apache is absolutely not usable anymore. Autorotation is just a dream which won't come true .........

(Besides: I also press the botton for the Emergency Hydr. but it also didn't change anything. The lamp on the button is on, but the steering is not possible anymore.)

No Autorotation possible after engines crashed.trk

Edited by GKOver
GKOver

GKOver

Posted
  • Author
Posted (edited)

@Ruiner: You don't know me but you are telling me that I am too stupid for Autorotation....?
You don't know what I have studied and where I have worked. But that doesn't matter because it seems that you know everything better about me than I do.

For the others: how can I start an Autorotation if all axis controls are not working anymore? ......

Edited by GKOver
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