Andersen 06 ILS confusion

[DmitriKozlowsky]

So this is the issue I am experience with Mirage when recovering iin Guam at Anderson AFB. Poor weather , low viz, and rain. Visizibility is less 3km.

OK 

There are two 06 runways at Andersen. 06L and 06R.  06L ILS is 109.30. 06R ILS is 110.10.

Active runway is defined as runway that ATC directs you to T/O from at start of mission. Presumption is that T/O runway is same as recovery runway. So if ATC directs you to T/O from 06L, the recovery runway is 06L for the mission.

So on landing ATC directs you to runway 06. They do not tell you which one. So we are left with presumption that we land on same runway that we took off from.

However in DCS, Andersen 06 runway only 06R ILS works. 06L ILS does not. So in APP mode with ILS set to 06L 109.30, there is no ILS path and synthetic runway. You have to recover on 06R. 

P.S. Do not rely on flashing approach lights to determine which is the landing runway. Its not always the case. Sort of random.

All these problems add up when there is low viz with rain at night, with ILS set and ON, TACAN set to 54X and ON. ADI set to TAC. Mode is APP. At low altutude with high terrain of Guam. Gear down, speed is 180knots. But there is no ILS capture. So you have to go around, and start throwing knobs .

THis is case when ATC and ILS do not gove pilot correct information. Or information is incomplete.

ATC has to direct clearly which runway to land on. At minimum.

[razo+r]

I tried it with the F-16 and both ILS for 06L and 06R were working just fine. Did you have any wind settings in your mission?

 

[DmitriKozlowsky]

10 minutes ago, razo+r said:

I tried it with the F-16 and both ILS for 06L and 06R were working just fine. Did you have any wind settings in your mission?

 

There is high turbulence and crosswind (10 knots) with rain. But that is immaterial to my post. Tangential at best. I dont have Viper mod. I may trial it to see if 06L and 06RL ILS beams works. In Mirage2KC, I can only capture 06R at ILS 110.10.  06L with 109.30 is not captured my Mirage.

[razo+r]

25 minutes ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

There is high turbulence and crosswind (10 knots) with rain. But that is immaterial to my post. Tangential at best. I dont have Viper mod. I may trial it to see if 06L and 06RL ILS beams works. In Mirage2KC, I can only capture 06R at ILS 110.10.  06L with 109.30 is not captured my Mirage.

Okay, so here is the problem. It does not matter in which module you are. If the ILS is working, you'll receive signal in any module. And just for the sake of this discussion, I also tested the Mirage 2000 and both ILS worked fine.

I also tried to replicate your wind settings, 10kts blowing to 156, so direct crosswind and both ILS still worked.

So in this case can you supply a track or the mission itself?

 

[DmitriKozlowsky]

What I am asking for is clarity from ATC. When there are multiple runways with same azimuth number, ATC needs to tell me LEFT or RIGHT. The audio ATC part of 'taxi to runway' also has no L or R. It has to be read from screen message. But no such L or R is included with neither audio or message on landing runway.

In same way, ATC needs to hand off to field tower and tower directs to specific parking spot. "TAXI TO PARKING" is just not enough. I used to beleive that parking on return is same as parking on start. But that is not the case. Then I looked at wingmen parking and followed them. There is no predictable patern I saw. AI taxies to somespot on field that was not used at mission start.

[razo+r]

Aha, that is your issue... Then just wait for ED to improve the ATC System... 

[drPhibes]

On 6/23/2024 at 10:05 PM, DmitriKozlowsky said:

So on landing ATC directs you to runway 06. They do not tell you which one. So we are left with presumption that we land on same runway that we took off from.

Your presumption is wrong. When you have two parallel runways (of an equivalent length and standard), it is quite common to use different runways for takeoff and landing. 

[DmitriKozlowsky]

Thats the issue. Which one? WHen ATC tells you to land runway 06 and there are 06L and 06R, you cannot get clarity from DCS ATC, as from real ATC. So I land on the one that has flashing approach lights. Seems right. But even thats not always correct. I am looking for clarity, I get little to none.

[DmitriKozlowsky]

Yet another issue is just lack of readily findable information on ILS chanells for Hornet and Harrier. Both use ILS channels instead of frequences. In Supercarrier mod, carrier's ILS chanell is 11. But where is the list for fields? Open the Mission Editor, click on Andersen AFB, and it shows ILS frequencies in the approach arc. But no chanell # for Hornet and Harrier. I read that land based ILS is not same as Navy's CarrierILS. If so, then how Navy jets land in Cat II and CatIII ILS conditions on shore fields?

So for example.

Landing a Hornet on 06R at night in CATIII conditions. What ILS chanell should be set? Where is a handy list of ILS chanells for all fields?

[drPhibes]

Use of precision landing aids at regular airports was apparently not a priority when the US Navy ordered the F/A-18. ICLS and ILS are completely incompatible, so there's no way for "our" Hornet to use the ILS at Anderson. The best you can get is using a mod with ground based ICLS beacons. 

[draconus]

On 7/2/2024 at 9:34 AM, DmitriKozlowsky said:

how Navy jets land in Cat II and CatIII ILS conditions on shore fields?

They either don't (they divert) or use PAR - not available in DCS.

[DmitriKozlowsky]

On 7/2/2024 at 3:14 AM, drPhibes said:

Use of precision landing aids at regular airports was apparently not a priority when the US Navy ordered the F/A-18. ICLS and ILS are completely incompatible, so there's no way for "our" Hornet to use the ILS at Anderson. The best you can get is using a mod with ground based ICLS beacons. 

I wonder if Navy aircraft have to land in Guam inn CatII and CatIII conditions, there is a Navy compatible system at Andersen. Which is not modeled in DCS. They may use modified CaseIII approaches.

[Nealius]

Published SOP for Andersen IFR when carrying external ordnance (most of us probably do in DCS) is depart 06R/L arrive 24R/L regardless of wind. Fortunately 24R/L ILS always works.

I can't find this restriction for VFR, but I follow it anyway to avoid the massive FPS issues on the 06R/L approach.

 

 

Edited July 21, 2024 by Nealius