F4U Torque Roll Video (FATAL)

[=475FG= Dawger]

2 hours ago, Krupi said:

The main issue isn’t the torque it isn’t the rudder or even the ailerons. The incident all stems from the elevator, as soon as the nose pulls up he was pretty much doomed. 

After the pitch up the pilot has no control, the only one that has any effect is when the elevator is pushed forward but by then it is too late. Watch the last video, slowed down it is pretty clear.

Torque related accidents occur when the throttle is opened at low speed and it is the sudden increase coupled with the lack of authority from control surfaces which lead to an accident. That is not the case here.

 

It is as if you are desperately wishing the existence of torque away despite plain evidence. 
 

Don’t worry. The Corsair will not be modeled with real world levels of torque. They know their audience and its expectations. 

[Yo-Yo]

10 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

The pilot mistake is not enough right rudder to counteract the torque of the engine, resulting in a strong left yaw as soon as he was off the deck and things go downhill from there. 
 

If there was no engine torque, he doesn’t die. 
 

 

You’re mixing up torque with P-factor and downwash effects. Torque is a rotational moment generated as a reaction to the propeller’s swirling air mass (according to the conservation of angular momentum), which creates a leftward rolling moment on the aircraft. Right rudder is primarily applied to counteract yaw caused by P-factor and downwash effects, not torque itself. At positive angles of attack (AoA), the P-factor creates a leftward yaw and positive pitch moment by increasing AoA on the descending blade, becoming more pronounced with increased speed due to differential airflow over the propeller blades.

Downwash is more influential at low speeds , decreasing as speed increases. Meanwhile, P-factor takes effect once there is sufficient speed and high AoA to cause noticeable local AoA changes on the propeller blades. Overall, the interaction of these forces and their impact on rudder trim requirements are clearly visible in trim diagrams.

Torque itself requires very slight ailerons input.

[=475FG= Dawger]

8 hours ago, Yo-Yo said:

You’re mixing up torque with P-factor and downwash effects. Torque is a rotational moment generated as a reaction to the propeller’s swirling air mass (according to the conservation of angular momentum), which creates a leftward rolling moment on the aircraft. Right rudder is primarily applied to counteract yaw caused by P-factor and downwash effects, not torque itself. At positive angles of attack (AoA), the P-factor creates a leftward yaw and positive pitch moment by increasing AoA on the descending blade, becoming more pronounced with increased speed due to differential airflow over the propeller blades.

Downwash is more influential at low speeds , decreasing as speed increases. Meanwhile, P-factor takes effect once there is sufficient speed and high AoA to cause noticeable local AoA changes on the propeller blades. Overall, the interaction of these forces and their impact on rudder trim requirements are clearly visible in trim diagrams.

Torque itself requires very slight ailerons input.

Naw, when I say torque I very obviously mean the entire menu of effects from an engine swinging a prop.

 

P-factor, precession, rotating airflow, asymmetric downwash and the voodoo that you do. 
 

Even in the weakest motor airplane, torque ( and all of the other effects previously mentioned or not) is a constant presence that must be accounted for all the time. 
 

Anyone who has actually flown a high powered prop aircraft knows DCS is largely wrong in this because you don’t need to trim very much at all in DCS props (admittedly to varying degrees across modules)

Anyway, this conversation is tiresome and pointless, as no one here is interested in how it should be. 
 

I’m a dot. AMF. 
 

 

 

[Yo-Yo]

Negative sir, YOU HAVE to trim it at every power change. And, finally, you have to prove that DCS P-51 or any other prop plane have very different trim curves from the curves that were recorded for the real plane.
And only these graphs give adequate information, how it should be.  
 

[Convoy]

It's not torque roll. From what I see the plane yaws left heavily, stalling the left wing because the giant engine is blocking airflow over it. The right wing has full lift, and causes the plane to roll over. Since the left wing is stalled, a comparatively small aileron on the right wing isn't going to counteract that, thus making it unrecoverable. 

Which is exactly what happens in DCS if you don't counteract with rudder on takeoff. You yaw to the left, left wing stalls, and drinks will be raised in the O-club to your demise. 

[grafspee]

On 12/30/2024 at 6:31 PM, Convoy said:

It's not torque roll. From what I see the plane yaws left heavily, stalling the left wing because the giant engine is blocking airflow over it. The right wing has full lift, and causes the plane to roll over. Since the left wing is stalled, a comparatively small aileron on the right wing isn't going to counteract that, thus making it unrecoverable. 

Which is exactly what happens in DCS if you don't counteract with rudder on takeoff. You yaw to the left, left wing stalls, and drinks will be raised in the O-club to your demise. 

Agree, if any significant torque counter reaction was present, that plane would start to roll immediately after leaving the deck of the aircraft carrier.

[lee1hy]

anyone reproduce the DCS torque crash like in the video with FM now?

[plott1964]

Feature	F-4U Corsair	P-47 Thunderbolt
Role	Carrier-based fighter	Fighter and fighter-bomber
Wingspan	40 ft 0 in (12.19 m)	40 ft 0 in (12.19 m)
Length	33 ft 4 in (10.16 m)	36 ft 1 in (10.99 m)
Top Speed	Approximately 446 mph (718 km/h)	Approximately 433 mph (697 km/h)
Service Ceiling	About 40,000 ft (12,192 m)	About 40,000 ft (12,192 m)
Armament	6 x .50 caliber M2 Browning MGs, bombs, and rockets	8 x .50 caliber M2 Browning MGs, bombs, and rockets
Flight Characteristics	Excellent speed and maneuverability, especially at low altitudes	Ruggedness and ability to absorb damage, effective at high altitudes

My thoughts:
ED should communicate to Magnitude 3 that the P-47 seems to work just fine and share some code for Pete's sake.

[Gunfreak]

5 hours ago, lee1hy said:

anyone reproduce the DCS torque crash like in the video with FM now?

Doesn't seem possible. Honestly both the Spitfire and P51 are far harder to control. I've slammed the throttle forwards and back. And only slight rudder is needed to keep it under control.

[Bremspropeller]

The crash wasn't attributed to torque roll at all. The video Krupi posted is pointing out the real issue:

Pilot probably panicked and applied LEFT rudder when leaving the bow, mixed with signifigant up elevator. The airplane stalled and went for a rudder-induced low speed snap-roll.

The video sequence is taken from a longer video, showing Carquals. The other pilots are doing just fine, taking off, landing and waving off in close, using proper control technique:

Mishap is about 5:15 into the video.

When flown correctly, there should be no torque-rolling about.

Edited June 21 by Bremspropeller

[grim_reaper68]

Interesting video, I was surprised to see the trim and flaps setting in the video. They don't match with the DCS flight manual, where there is 1° nose up trim and 30°flaps for carrier takeoff. But I can suppose that it has to do with the fact that they are using the catapult in the video. 

[=475FG= Dawger]

On 6/20/2025 at 1:19 PM, Gunfreak said:

Doesn't seem possible. Honestly both the Spitfire and P51 are far harder to control. I've slammed the throttle forwards and back. And only slight rudder is needed to keep it under control.

That's quite silly but totally expected. And torque (and its associated effects) is well understood so its absence has to be intentional. To be fair, its not modelled properly in any DCS Warbirds so expecting it in the Corsair is sorta hopeless.

It would be nice if all of them would get real world levels modelled. Its what makes them interesting and challenging to fly and fight but somewhere the decision was made that the DCS customer wouldn't be able or willing to deal with it. (And I believe that completely based upon the constant insistence that one should be able to slam the throttle stop to stop at any speed while basically ignoring the flight controls)

A disservice to the customer, some great aircraft and the men that flew them. 

[grafspee]

On 6/21/2025 at 11:37 AM, Bremspropeller said:

The crash wasn't attributed to torque roll at all. The video Krupi posted is pointing out the real issue:

Pilot probably panicked and applied LEFT rudder when leaving the bow, mixed with signifigant up elevator. The airplane stalled and went for a rudder-induced low speed snap-roll.

The video sequence is taken from a longer video, showing Carquals. The other pilots are doing just fine, taking off, landing and waving off in close, using proper control technique:

Mishap is about 5:15 into the video.

When flown correctly, there should be no torque-rolling about.

Totally agree, if done properly take off is manageable, there is one take off which plane didn't even twitch a bit while leaving deck.

I remember @Yo-Yo was explaining that step by step and what went wrong and what actually made that snap roll.

[grim_reaper68]

I tested the takeoff setup from the video without catapult of course. While push the throttle slowly it's easy to take off from the carrier and needs only little correction on the rudder to keep the Corsair in a straight line. After leaving the carier, the corsair goes up by itself without any input. Bringing the flaps up is a little bit tricky as the Corsair goes up violently at each step.

For the crash on the video, when I see how the elevator is set, it seems the pilot pulled it. I don't know if I can compare IRL and DCS Corsair, but in DCS only the trim tab moves, and not the elevator. In comparison to the other who take off, the elevator is very high.