Middle Eastern Asset pack for current/future Middle East maps

[Devil 505]

This has been a topic brought up in the past, but I am curious if there will ever be a Middle Eastern asset pack released to flesh out the current maps we have.  With Afghanistan close to release, Syria, Persian Gulf, Sinai, and Iraq coming, are there plans for ED to make an asset pack similar to the WW2? 

The current Red Infantry are not an authentic fit for any of these desert maps.  Before someone mentions it, yes Russia could fit a possible Afghan/Russian conflict, but overall, the current ground assets, specifically the lack of insurgents and middle eastern adversaries are nonexistent minus a few technical trucks.  Helo's are becoming a predominant focus in DCS and with close air support being a priority role, troop extractions/engagements, and supply operations to name a few, when can we expect to hear something about fleshing out further ground assets for these Middle Eastern conflicts? 

I know AI behavior and character movement is a current focus, but has there been any discussion on incorporating further technology to enhance the ground troop combat?  I would be stating the obvious Afghanistan and Iraq would be missing out terribly if we do not see some this incorporated.  Troops in contact scenarios would require identifying friend from foe, looking for insurgent positions in towns, villages, mountains ect....  I feel like without any discussion on incorporating these fundamental requirements for these maps, we are going to kill a certain level of immersion.  My buddies and I are doing a lot of helo flights with the Kiowa and OH-6 and it has taken some significant time looking for free mods and scripting missions to come close to some of these scenarios. 

I look forward to hearing what ED might have to say and the community.  I feel the Helo pilots, myself included, are missing an aspect of Digital Combat that is just as important as the aircraft.  Below are some photos/examples of insurgents and civilians I would like to see in a similar fashion incorporated in the sim for a more realistic feel.

The following are Al Qaeda, Isis, and Hezbollah 

  

 

 

[Tank50us]

We already have some insurgent units in the game. Technicals, Insurgent troops, and an entire 'faction' are already part of the base game. What I would like to see are an increase in the variety of Insurgent forces. Not faction specific mind you, IE, no ISIS, Al'Quieda, Hamas, etc. But with units with optional different 'liveries', and available kit.

For example, if you were doing an alternate 1985 scenario where the Soviets invaded Western Europe and pushed all the way past Paris, the 'Insurgent forces' there would be equipped with FALs (I know the French never adopted the FAL, the rifle they did adopt looks close to it) and M16s, as well as captured AK47/74. You would also see a larger number of more 'European style' trucks and cars being used as technicals.

Though rare, there are aircraft that can be used by insurgent forces. Normally if any aircraft are employed, it's a helicopter or a... erm... 'borrowed'... Cesna or something. Usually you see the latter being used by cartels to move 'product' from A to B, but some have cropped up in armed confrontations (with the results of what happens when one meets an F-16 being quite obvious)

Now... for missions. What kinds of missions and scenarios could these crop up in?

• Well, Alternate history is one, where insurgent forces are an issue for one side or another.
• In dedicated COIN missions, where players are either mercenaries that were called in, or part of a proper military going after insurgent forces
• Finally, Anti-drug operations where players are tasked with locating, and either diverting a plane loaded with 'product', or shooting it down.

Issues that we face:

1. A lack of 'coalitions'. As things stand, you either have Blue, Red, or Neutral. In the real world, you'd have multiple insurgent forces with their own goals being at odds with one another. We'd need more coalitions, and the ability to set the relationship between them to fix this.
2. Insurgent forces don't do well standing out in the open. They'd need ways to 'duck into' buildings and cover to avoid being seen, allowing them to better ambush players who aren't paying attention (this is possible with careful scripting, but sometimes scripts fall over).
3. The lack of a true 'ground game' in DCS. While most agree that DCS is mostly about Air combat, we can't ignore the conflict on the ground for much longer. Sometimes, being able to tell who an insurgent faction is can come down to what form of headgear they wear, and in the real world, this is usually done by people on the ground who can tell the difference and mark them as targets. Combined Arms would need a massive overhaul to make this work.

Hope this helps :3

[MAXsenna]

11 hours ago, Tank50us said:

Finally, Anti-drug operations where players are tasked with locating, and either diverting a plane loaded with 'product', or shooting it down.

The "War on drugs" was lost even before it started... You're better off fighting the pharmacy industry. Legalized cartels.

[Tank50us]

49 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

The "War on drugs" was lost even before it started... You're better off fighting the pharmacy industry. Legalized cartels.

The point isn't about that, it's just the military operations that try to deal with it. On top of that, insurgencies tend to use such shipments as a way to pay for their campaigns. You can't buy boom sticks with IOUs after all.

[Mistermann]

18 hours ago, Devil 505 said:

This has been a topic brought up in the past, but I am curious if there will ever be a Middle Eastern asset pack released to flesh out the current maps we have.  With Afghanistan close to release, Syria, Persian Gulf, Sinai, and Iraq coming, are there plans for ED to make an asset pack similar to the WW2? 

The current Red Infantry are not an authentic fit for any of these desert maps.  Before someone mentions it, yes Russia could fit a possible Afghan/Russian conflict, but overall, the current ground assets, specifically the lack of insurgents and middle eastern adversaries are nonexistent minus a few technical trucks.  Helo's are becoming a predominant focus in DCS and with close air support being a priority role, troop extractions/engagements, and supply operations to name a few, when can we expect to hear something about fleshing out further ground assets for these Middle Eastern conflicts? 

I know AI behavior and character movement is a current focus, but has there been any discussion on incorporating further technology to enhance the ground troop combat?  I would be stating the obvious Afghanistan and Iraq would be missing out terribly if we do not see some this incorporated.  Troops in contact scenarios would require identifying friend from foe, looking for insurgent positions in towns, villages, mountains ect....  I feel like without any discussion on incorporating these fundamental requirements for these maps, we are going to kill a certain level of immersion.  My buddies and I are doing a lot of helo flights with the Kiowa and OH-6 and it has taken some significant time looking for free mods and scripting missions to come close to some of these scenarios. 

I look forward to hearing what ED might have to say and the community.  I feel the Helo pilots, myself included, are missing an aspect of Digital Combat that is just as important as the aircraft.  Below are some photos/examples of insurgents and civilians I would like to see in a similar fashion incorporated in the sim for a more realistic feel.

Thanks for starting this @Devil 505.  Personally, I think the community has a much better chance to influence something like an asset pack vs. overarching changes that are likely difficult to incorporate into a brittle 20 year old codeset.  I was going to suggest starting with just a few new infantry models and go from there.  If not an asset pack, go ahead and roll into the base.  ED could do these changes over time (please let us know that's your plan, however).  I saw the trailer for Afghanistan and noticed the new insurgent model there, so maybe the strategy is to add to the core.  

I hope there are different skins we can select for this unit so we have some variety.  Sadly, this unit didn't come with today's patch, but whenever it does drop we'll double the number of insurgent infantry options in game.

Given the ambiguity of the modern battlefield, I really hope to see other human models that allow mission makers to model the tough decisions that are made - its that a combatant or not?

ED - can we have some commentary on your direction here?  Not asking for WHEN.  Is the above image the only combatant humanoid we're getting or are you rolling out more possible combatant models for us?  

 

[Gunfreak]

Should really get some basic cold war infantry.

For the middle east you just need some guys in beige uniforms some iron pot helmet. 1 with AK and 1 with a machine gun. And you have infantry that is "meh good enough " for much of the middle east from 60s to 90s.

[Mistermann]

17 hours ago, Gunfreak said:

Should really get some basic cold war infantry.

For the middle east you just need some guys in beige uniforms some iron pot helmet. 1 with AK and 1 with a machine gun. And you have infantry that is "meh good enough " for much of the middle east from 60s to 90s.

... and with the request from the OP we'd cover from today all the way back to the 60's.  I'd suggest this "isn't that difficult" to do in the grand scheme of things.  We're not talking about writing MT or Vulkan here.  Sometimes the small things go a LONG way.  

I remain hopeful that something like this is on ED's radar - clearly they are working on at least one new asset based on what we saw in the Afghanistan trailer.

@BIGNEWY - is this topic something you can comment on?  If the answer is something like "ED is not adding human assets beyond what was in the trailer", maybe the community can convince someone like Massun92 or 8Ball to whip something up if ED doesn't have interest in this initiative.

[Devil 505]

19 hours ago, Gunfreak said:

"meh good enough "

I get where you are coming from for sure, but to me, DCS is beyond "just good enough."  I do not think it is a stretch to go as far as Mistermann has suggested and drop a handful of different insurgent model types into the sim.

From the perspective of including what appear to be non-combatant's, I could not agree more.  Afghanistan was a Guerilla war fought not only against men, but women and children to.  I know because I had several friends killed over there in Afghanistan because of this exact reason.  It was not an isolated event to have children throwing grenades on roofs or provided by Al Qaeda or teenagers with AK's and bomb vests.  I feel like incorporating Men and Women would accurately depict the environments encountered over there, especially after flying the Afghan map last night.  Even though I would like to see the teenage terrorist in there, I am pretty sure bringing children targets into DCS might put them in a bad light.

Casmo has even mentioned in an older video it would be nice to see a scenario where you had to visually ID your targets like he did on deployment.  Picking people up on FLIR or during the day and identifying a specific threat would increase the authenticity and feel of the operation.  Making sure you were not about to fire on friendlies or civilians. 

Looking forward to seeing what is to come for these regions when it pertains to ground assets. 

[Gunfreak]

4 minutes ago, Devil 505 said:

I get where you are coming from for sure, but to me, DCS is beyond "just good enough."  I do not think it is a stretch to go as far as Mistermann has suggested and drop a handful of different insurgent model types into the sim.

From the perspective of including what appear to be non-combatant's, I could not agree more.  Afghanistan was a Guerilla war fought not only against men, but women and children to.  I know because I had several friends killed over there in Afghanistan because of this exact reason.  It was not an isolated event to have children throwing grenades on roofs or provided by Al Qaeda or teenagers with AK's and bomb vests.  I feel like incorporating Men and Women would accurately depict the environments encountered over there, especially after flying the Afghan map last night.  Even though I would like to see the teenage terrorist in there, I am pretty sure bringing children targets into DCS might put them in a bad light.

Casmo has even mentioned in an older video it would be nice to see a scenario where you had to visually ID your targets like he did on deployment.  Picking people up on FLIR or during the day and identifying a specific threat would increase the authenticity and feel of the operation.  Making sure you were not about to fire on friendlies or civilians. 

Looking forward to seeing what is to come for these regions when it pertains to ground assets. 

I'm not talking about Afghanistan. I'm talking about the middle east 1960-1990. When the basic uniform of the armies in that area was some beige/sand colors uniform, a metal pot helmet and an AK or others soviet based weapons. 

Yes some nations had western arms like G3, FN FAL or even M16. However I've found that asking for "too much" from ED never works. Asking ED to make 2 infantry models that look "meh good enough" but 100 times better than using green cammoed Russians with modern optical sights. to cover the armies on Syria map, Sinai map, and Persian Gulf is mabye something ED can do. Mabye even add green uniforms to the beige. To get some variations.

[Tank50us]

13 hours ago, Devil 505 said:

From the perspective of including what appear to be non-combatant's, I could not agree more.  Afghanistan was a Guerilla war fought not only against men, but women and children to.  I know because I had several friends killed over there in Afghanistan because of this exact reason.  It was not an isolated event to have children throwing grenades on roofs or provided by Al Qaeda or teenagers with AK's and bomb vests.  I feel like incorporating Men and Women would accurately depict the environments encountered over there, especially after flying the Afghan map last night.  Even though I would like to see the teenage terrorist in there, I am pretty sure bringing children targets into DCS might put them in a bad light.

ED Won't even add civil aircraft for this very purpose. They simply won't add civilians to that extent, as much as most of us want it, and how it would make for a good set of missions to ID and track a certain individual... they just won't do it. On top of that, there's the issue that you'd have to have hundreds, if not thousands of people in an area to make it close to realistic. Just ask any vet that's been over there. Markets (where these guys tend to get spotted) are just teeming with people. And DCS starts having dry heaves when you have a realistic WW2 Bomber formation just flying. Imagine what it's going to do with thousands of people in a crowded market. Peoples PCs would likely turn their rooms to ovens trying to render them all.

That all being said... I don't mind more civilian assets in DCS. I will however caution you that when it comes to certain sensitive issues.... ED isn't gonna touch them with a Hornet Launched SM3. For best results, if you want VBIEDs or IEVs in your mission, I suggest getting crafty with the scripting.

[Mistermann]

I definitely don't want to ask ED for thousands of assets in a market.  Not because I don't want it, but because ED cannot deliver that.  I believe history shows us it is simply an unrealistic ask in this day's DCS technology.  I believe a reasonable request is handful of combatant models for a post 2000 time period.  I'd like to see some of these combatant models offer skins that show the ambiguity of the conflict and allow mission makers to put choice and decisions into the DCS experience. 

Without that, we have what we have today which is, if it has two legs shoot it.

@Massun92 or @Eight Ball I am inviting you to the conversation to see what opinions you have on this topic.  Thanks.

Edited July 13, 2024 by Mistermann

[Devil 505]

16 hours ago, Tank50us said:

I don't mind more civilian assets in DCS. I will however caution you that when it comes to certain sensitive issues.... ED isn't gonna touch them with a Hornet Launched SM3.

LOL. I would tend ot agree.  And I being from this time period over there, I get we do not want 1000's of AI people on the ground, but as Mistermann stated above, and variation of combatant models........MAYBE some man dresses and goats.  Just a more authentic group of adversaries rather than one or two guys that look like a current Russian unit with a towel on his head.  I liked what we saw in the release trailer with the one insurgent.  I am hoping this is one of many variants.  

[Eight Ball]

[Devil 505]

7 hours ago, Eight Ball said:

You guys are the cats ass! Looking forward to this pack coming out!

[Mistermann]

On 7/14/2024 at 6:29 PM, Devil 505 said:

You guys are the cats ass! Looking forward to this pack coming out!

Oh man, @Eight Ball, that's great!  Appreciate the tease.  

[eUK Nibbler]

On 7/14/2024 at 4:48 PM, Schlingel mit Kringel said:

Some kind of "generic middle eastern" models armed and unarmed would be great. A great part of COIN is distinguishing between non-combatants and combatants and tracking them. Currently it boils down to "find the heat source and pull the tigger" With a mix of armed and unarmed moving people, you could generate a way different quality of missions in that regard. Also goats! Goats make great scattered heat sources to mask other entities moving along tree lines and ditches.

This is a very good point, there's no civilians to avoid. it's just hunt the heat source. Could do with better civilian traffic too, especially in Afghanistan cities. Trying to track enemy without civilian casualties would be fun. Could set triggers on civilians that end the mission as a failure if killed. Or hunting for a specific vehicle type/colour on open roads.

[Devil 505]

Amy update on the Hodge pack?