overwhelming!

HansRoaming · May 10, 2009

Like people have said, do the videos, do the tutorials and first of all just get the hang of flying the helicopter.

One thing you can do is take control of the tutorials so for some this really helps. I learnt the startup sequence this way, basically take control at the start after watching a few times then after startup practising flying.

nomdeplume · May 11, 2009

You're joking right? The f16 is so easy to fly, it practically flies itself. The cockpit is straightforward and the avionics were designed to be easy on the pilot. Everything was designed so that the pilot can concentrate on one thing and one thing only - combat. Bombs even release themselves!

Well there's two parts - there's the mechanics of flying and fighting, and there's the tactics. They really go hand in hand. The Falcon is obviously much easier to fly, but I think there's more to learn. For one thing, the Black Shark is a purely IVR platform. That eliminates a whole set of equipment and tactical doctrine. It's like flying a World War 2 fighter, except it handles weird and you have advanced technology like laser ranging and computerised targeting to make your job as easy as pointing the cursor on the thing you want dead and squeezing the trigger. It doesn't get any easier than that.

While the F-16 does have visual combat modes for both air and ground targets, it also has BVR capability. To fight with it effectively you need to be proficient at both.

In addition, the F-16 is a multi-role fighter. The Ka-50 is an attack helicopter. While you can use it to some limited degree to engage other aircraft, it's not what it was designed for. It's A-A weapon systems are exactly the same as the A-G systems, only it's harder to hit flying things because of their speed. This leads to different tactics, but the process is the same. The F-16 has a different set of radar modes for engaging aerial targets, and different tactics depending on range, aspect and available weapons.

Compare that to the BS.... have you navigated your ABRIS and GPS systems? How about setting up waypoints? Have you memorised the EKRAN codes... or what the ARK-22 does?

The navigation system of the F-16 is just as complex. I know the games don't let you modify the flightplan en route, I'm not sure if you can in real life or not. Even assuming not, there are plenty of pages on the MFDs relating to test modes and system parameters that I've never even touched. And the problem reporting is as detailed as the EKRAN. (And why would you memorise the codes, anyway?)

Certainly I find the F-16 easier to fly, but it's a war machine and flying is only a small part of its purpose. Actually fighting with it I find to be far more complex. In addition, much of learning to fight with it is book learning and theory. The Ka-50 tactics you can learn a lot through trial and error. While that's not a viable strategy for real pilots, it does make it much easier to pick up and learn for simmers/gamers.

EtherealN · May 11, 2009

The Ka-50 tactics you can learn a lot through trial and error. While that's not a viable strategy for real pilots, it does make it much easier to pick up and learn for simmers/gamers.

That's true for the F-16 as well though, isn't it?

And one thing one does have to remember when comparing the two for difficulty is that the Ka-50, being a helicopter, is more difficult to fly than the F-16, wherefore the total "experience" can be more challenging than the F-16 even if the F-16 has more complex avionics. Flying may be only a part of the warfighting job, but the helicopter being what it is and flying as low as it does means it may well be a bigger job - after all, there is a reason why all but one attack helicopter splits the job on two crew whereas most multirole/swingrole fighters stick to just one. (Though I think I've seen a bit of a trend towards more two-seater versions being used as actual combat craft rather than the traditional two-seater "trainer".)

In the end though, I think it definitely suffers from a bit of apples and oranges. :P

WynnTTr · May 11, 2009

Well there's two parts - there's the mechanics of flying and fighting, and there's the tactics. They really go hand in hand. The Falcon is obviously much easier to fly, but I think there's more to learn. For one thing, the Black Shark is a purely IVR platform. ......

You've gone off on a tangent there. It's exactly like the EtherealN said - apples and oranges.

I was addressing the actual flight side of the F16 v BS in response to Theox saying that it was easier. He wasn't clear in his post in what he means.

You cannot compare the tactical deployment of an multi-role aircraft to that of an attack chopper. They're in different worlds.

One could argue that the BVR capabilities makes fighting in modern aircraft too easy. Where's the skill in getting AWACS updates then just letting loose? Dogfights? Do they happen often (apart from Top Gun?).

Whereas an attack chopper is close enough to be on the receiving end of every enemy with a RPG and small arms fire. Not to mention manpads, AAA etc..

They're 2 completely different combat worlds.

Are you saying you don't need any situational awareness or tactics when flying an attack chopper?

Regardless, I already stated the flight model of both and a chopper is much harder to fly. Avionics, only OF came to the level of complexity that BS has. There's no way AF achieved that.

Jack McCoy · May 11, 2009

Realistic mode controller requirements

Just starting on realistic and staying there?:pilotfly:

Yes, I fully agree. Forget about all easy modes related to flight model and avionics.

But before you do that, get some decent hardware. You absolutely need an analog collective input, not the keyboard. Rudders are a close second must-have. A twist-handle stick is acceptable - some like it, some don't.

Enjoy the sim. :book::joystick::book::joystick:

EtherealN · May 11, 2009

I would add a head-tracking device. It's effect on situational awareness (and skill at using the helmet-mounted sight) is massive, and it's just pure fun as well.

If one is on a budget but already has a webcam, there's low-cost alternatives like Cachya which some people on this forum have given rave reviews. Many rate it higher than pedals, even.

Jack McCoy · May 11, 2009

I love my TrackIR

I would add a head-tracking device. It's effect on situational awareness (and skill at using the helmet-mounted sight) is massive, and it's just pure fun as well.

If one is on a budget but already has a webcam, there's low-cost alternatives like Cachya which some people on this forum have given rave reviews. Many rate it higher than pedals, even.

ABSOLUTELY! Once you've gone TrackIR, you can't stand being 5 seconds in the sim without it. REALLY.

--

I had two of my friends buy Black Shark AND TrackIR5. I each had them on the phone when they first "toured" their cockpits. To my delight, I heard both let out this evil laugh... the initiated know what I'm talking about...:D Find out for yourself!

nomdeplume · May 11, 2009

You've gone off on a tangent there. It's exactly like the EtherealN said - apples and oranges.

I'll agree with that. I was more thinking about the learning curve associated with going from newbie to being reasonably proficient.

They're 2 completely different combat worlds.

This was my main point, except to say that the F-16 functions in both of them (albeit the focus is more on the BVR/instrument-based combat). In relation to the above, this means there's more things to learn before you can consider yourself reasonably proficient at all aspects of the aircraft.

Also regarding the "learn by doing" comment, I meant that, to me, a lot of the stuff in the F-16 seems to be better or only learned through "book learning" because the lack of visibility makes it harder to get a feel for what's happening just by playing through it. The Ka-50 operates in a smaller world so to speak - if you're being shot at by something you can't see, you're doing it wrong. For a fighter, that's entirely normal and expected.

Re-reading the original post I guess the combat stuff is a bit off track. Helicopters are definitely much harder to fly, and the navigation stuff is pretty similar between most platforms so far as I can see. So the learning curve for flight is definitely harder for the helos.

On the plus side it makes traveling between destinations more interesting than it usually is in fighters.

Topgun505 · May 11, 2009

I DID print the manual (I over-estimated how many pages I would get out of my ink cartridges so I figured I could crank it out without too much difficulty, and I didn't take in to account how many screenshots there are of the ABRIS in it, which takes it up a huge amount of ink). Needless to say ... my advice is DON'T try it or you will spend like $100 in ink to print it. If you want a hard copy I would suggest you wait for them to release a hard copy and buy it. Or, if you don't want a black and white copy, take it to Kinkos to be printed or to lulu.com

And I DID read the whole thing. IMHO you pretty much HAVE to if you intend to get the most out of it. Granted some parts you don't need to read in depth. For example if you have no intention of changing ABRIS routes mid-flight you can kinda glaze over it. For the most part, however, you will need to read through it eventually.

This is a MAXIMUM fidelity sim. It is going to require study and patience and lots of practice. You cannot simply expect to jump in this bird and get going with no effort.

If you are already used to other complex flight sims that have fairly realistic physics modeling then once you get past learning the on-board systems it shouldn't be too bad.

I read through the manual over a week or two, then developed my own startup checklist and only then did I try a few test hops getting a feel for the handling. Once I got the basics down I sat down and figured out the best control mapping for my stick and throttle, etc. After only about 5-10 hr of flight time fully set up I managed to land on the helipad of Oliver H Perry destroyer on my first attempt.

The bottom line is you will find it a LOT easier and less frustrating if you have some patience and take your time to learn the systems, then learn how to handle the chopper, and only then start tackling the higher functions.

As always ... post whatever questions you have on the forums as I'm sure everyone is more than willing to help.

As for the AP ... leave all 3 autopilots (heading, pitch, attitude) on for now. Later you may want to start trying turns with heading hold off but right now you just need to be concerned with the basics.

Frederf · May 12, 2009

I would suggest against printing out the manual. It may help your printer remember how to fly but it will do little good for you. Try writing/typing notes (in your own words) as detailed as you need to after reading a section from the manual and then try to use your own notes as reference.

Your first notes on how to start the aircraft might have the APU start complex and detailed in its instruction on where each switch is located and what to check. Later when you get a feel for it your rewritten start procedure will be simpler, perhaps "APU fuel valve, APU start" and then another level and rewrite later "APU."

Using this method of successive simplification you build the depth of your understanding gradually and increase your grasp of not only what actions to take but what these actions do in a larger picture. If at any time you don't understand your own notes, simply go back one "level" until you remember.

It's only by classifying actions into sensible groups that any pilot has a chance of memorizing the myriad of things he needs to do.

spyda · May 12, 2009

if there's one more thing for immersion and that's a touch screen.

I'm using a 25.5" HD touch screen and i tell u it doesn't get any better than that. no need for the mouse or short cut keys (i struggle to rememer most of them now lol ) but makes BS all that much better specialy on start ups

nemises · May 12, 2009

^^ yeah, i'd love to go the touch or touchoverlay route.....after seeing Urze's 4 monitor + 28" touch setup...sheesh...dream

Topgun505 · May 12, 2009

Ok spyda. 3 Questions:

1. Where did you get a touch screen panel from? I don't think I've ever seen one in any sort of retail store.

2. How much did it cost?

3. Are you running XP or Vista? And is it Vista certified?

I'd love to get such a touch setup but if it is gonna run me $1000 to set up I'll just get myself a TrackIR and just be happy with that. lol :)

WynnTTr · May 12, 2009

Ok spyda. 3 Questions:

1. Where did you get a touch screen panel from? I don't think I've ever seen one in any sort of retail store.

2. How much did it cost?

3. Are you running XP or Vista? And is it Vista certified?

I'd love to get such a touch setup but if it is gonna run me $1000 to set up I'll just get myself a TrackIR and just be happy with that. lol :)

Get TrackIR first - it will greatly increase your immersion factor, moreso than a touch panel imo.

Safari Ken · May 12, 2009

Get TrackIR first - it will greatly increase your immersion factor, moreso than a touch panel imo.

Agreed. TrackIR is way more immersive than a touch screen. On a side note, TrackIR also limits the awesomeness of multiple screens. I used to really want wrap-around viewscreens (I've wanted that ever since Chuck Yeager's Air Combat, which supported up to 8 monitors iirc), but TrackIR has made me revert to just wanting to play on one huge screen.

I actually don't like the touch screens. It's no more immersive to touch a flat piece of plastic than it is to click something with your mouse, in my opinion. What would be immersive would be a fully physical cockpit, a la what Oakes is building in that thread over in the Cockpit forum.

VMFA117_Poko · May 12, 2009

Agreed. TrackIR is way more immersive than a touch screen. On a side note, TrackIR also limits the awesomeness of multiple screens. I used to really want wrap-around viewscreens (I've wanted that ever since Chuck Yeager's Air Combat, which supported up to 8 monitors iirc), but TrackIR has made me revert to just wanting to play on one huge screen.

I actually don't like the touch screens. It's no more immersive to touch a flat piece of plastic than it is to click something with your mouse, in my opinion. What would be immersive would be a fully physical cockpit, a la what Oakes is building in that thread over in the Cockpit forum.

Full agreed! :thumbup:

bengo · May 12, 2009

TrackIr and pedals are a must, imho.

I do my flying on a 24-inch screen, and do all my weapons/navigating stuff (PVI, Abris, datalink, targetting computer...) through a 19" IIyama touchscreen (costed about 500Euro's http://www.iiyama.com/ms_GL/Product/category/5/product/5).

The rest of the switch throwing (I've only done one cold start-up until now:music_whistling:) is done by mouse on the 3D-pit on the 24-inch screen.

I find taking my hand of the stick to click some button with the mouse, very much unrealistic. The tinkering with the mouse in the 3D-pit while using weapons or just flying is a bit jittery and takes too much time. Not something you need while trying to fly and fight the Shark.

Using Vista32.

Edited May 13, 2009 by bengo

spyda · May 13, 2009

Ok spyda. 3 Questions:

1. Where did you get a touch screen panel from? I don't think I've ever seen one in any sort of retail store.

2. How much did it cost?

3. Are you running XP or Vista? And is it Vista certified?

I'd love to get such a touch setup but if it is gonna run me $1000 to set up I'll just get myself a TrackIR and just be happy with that. lol :)

1. I bought a HP touchsmart IQ816 it has a viewable HD touch screen of 25.5" from Harvey Norman in Sydney, Australia

2. it was $3,800AUD at the time

3. i have vista 64 that came with the PC. i did speak to HP and they said that the new windows will support the touch system a lot better as u really need the HP software with VISTA unless some one knows other drivers i can use

i find the HP touch screen was the best i could find at the time to look at + i needed a new PC to run BS :cry:. there also very accurate to use and your touching a glass screen not plastic.

all round its a great PC :thumbup:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=40131

Edited May 13, 2009 by spyda

Frederf · May 13, 2009

I've always wanted to go for TrackIR + Wearable LCD glasses so I could get even a 1:1 ratio of turn to control. Unfortunately the quality of even the best LCD glasses isn't super and those are pricey.

leroy1964 · May 13, 2009

Printed the manual

:lol: Ouch and Wow, 383 pages and the printer finally stops, all the paper was very warm to the touch and I think the printer had a small heart attack :lol:

Then there was the binding, I had to bind the entire manual into two halves as it was too big :lol: anyway I am glad I have completed that part of the setup and will now sit down to read it (don't know exactly how long that will take, however should be good reading):megalol:

On another note, I am still working through these 'long' tutorials (hope I spelt that right) and not so overwhelmed now but still very 'dead' at any attempt on any thing after mission one, LOL.

Cheers all

-fox- · May 13, 2009

Hello there! Does anybody know when and where the printed manual will be available? I am quite desperately waiting for it because I don't want to waste ink on the pdf-version and reading on the monitor is really tiresome. It's supposed to come out this month, right?

HitchHikingFlatlander · May 13, 2009

Yeah supposed to be out soon, things can change though.

bengo · May 13, 2009

http://www.simw.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=dsp_product_details&pid=2157

They'll ship to Germany too. Available from May 15th.

JimMack · May 14, 2009

http://www.simw.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=dsp_product_details&pid=2157

They'll ship to Germany too. Available from May 15th.

There may be a delay of 5 days due to time to ship to distributor.

Total · May 14, 2009

:lol: Ouch and Wow, 383 pages and the printer finally stops, all the paper was very warm to the touch and I think the printer had a small heart attack :lol:

Then there was the binding, I had to bind the entire manual into two halves as it was too big :lol: anyway I am glad I have completed that part of the setup and will now sit down to read it (don't know exactly how long that will take, however should be good reading):megalol:

On another note, I am still working through these 'long' tutorials (hope I spelt that right) and not so overwhelmed now but still very 'dead' at any attempt on any thing after mission one, LOL.

Cheers all

Most printers can manually collate (ie print one side, insert the stack in the correct orientation, print the other side). That's how I did mine although I did it by chapters and sections if the chapters were too long. Took me about an hour to print it all out.

I also went and got 3 hole paper. That way I didn't have to punch the holes myself.

This is all lessons learned after having printed out the Lomac manual the hard way lol!

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