Navigating waypoints in F4E

[Hammer1-1]

I am currently beating my head against something hard trying to figure out how to navigate waypoints using anything and Ive been digging through the manual trying to pick up the tidbits but all Im finding is just how the system works. I also kinda figured that the training mission would assist in this regard as well but by the time I get to altitude Im told Im outside of the flight boundaries. Where can I find the best information on how to do this? I am VAGUELY familiar with the TACAN navigation, I get the VOR, NDB stuff...but navigating to waypoints is a bit beyond my senility stretched pea brain....

[Zabuzard]

First you need to understand how the Nav panel works:

Especially the Mode Knob (1), whose positions are named very confusingly. TGT 1, TGT 2 and RESET sound as if you could store two waypoints and perhaps reset that, but that is not the case. So let me provide perhaps better names:

* TGT 1: "Current panel coordinates" - this will navigate towards whatever coordinates are currently visible/entered on the panel (10). Thats it, no memory whatsoever, just plain navigation towards the coordinates currently on the panel

* TGT 2: "Memorized coordinates" - this navigates towards coordinates that you have memorized in the computer. This is done by first putting the coordinates on the panel (10) and then moving the mode knob (1) to the springloaded RESET position. RESET essentially means "load these coordinates into the memory".

So, now you can either select TGT 1 for the current coordinates or TGT 2 for memorized coordinates and the pilots HSI will provide the heading and distance to it, thats all

For the HSI to actually steer towards the waypoint, the pilot has to select NAV+COMP on the HSI source right next to it:

For the WSO, its the BDHI that shows the data, while he has to select the mode also right next to it:

If you are using Jester, you can simply setup a flightplan with multiple waypoints through the Jester UI. Jester will then automatically work his panel to navigate you through the flightplan point by point (this is called leapfrogging).

Edited July 30, 2024 by Zabuzard

[Gadreel]

For navigating waypoints you have to use the Jester menu. Via Jester you edit flightplans and select where you want to go. Usually Jester is naviating to the first waypoint in the primary flightplan and after that to the second waypoint and so forth. 

To find out where you have to go you have to use the Navigation Function Selector Panel next to the HSI which consists of two knobs. BRG/DIST on the left and MODE on the right. 

For waypoint navigation you have to select NAV/COMP on both knobs. (Navigation Computer)

The HSI now shows direction and distance to the next waypoint. If you turn on the flightdirector with the right knob the ADI displays steering information on the ADI as well. 

I hope that helps. 

[Hammer1-1]

seems navigation is only doable with a flight plan, does the navigation computer only hold 2 coordinates? Thanks for the quick reply, theres quite a bit to piece together.

Edited July 30, 2024 by Hammer1-1

[Zabuzard]

The computer can only hold a single coordinate, as explained above.

What Jester does is writting down your flightplan coordinates and then working his panel whenever you approach the next point by putting the coordinates and loading it into TGT 2 (i.e. the memory). This is called leapfrogging.

You do not need a flightplan if you want to do a quick "lets go to this point" navigation. Thats what TGT 1 is used for. You can then just select "Deviate" in the Jester Wheel to deviate from the flightplan.

Edited July 30, 2024 by Zabuzard

[Hammer1-1]

4 minutes ago, Zabuzard said:

The computer can only hold a single coordinate, as explained above.

What Jester does is writting down your flightplan coordinates and then working his panel whenever you approach the next point by putting the coordinates and loading it into TGT 2 (i.e. the memory). This is called leapfrogging.

You do not need a flightplan if you want to do a quick "lets go to this point" navigation. Thats what TGT 1 is used for. You can then just select "Deviate" in the Jester Wheel to deviate from the flightplan.

 

Im mostly interested in doing things the hard way, never know when Jesters going to say adios. Nice to know that its a hands on affair the whole way...guess I have a lot of reading to do. Thanks for the assist!

[Zabuzard]

You are welcome The key to doing it yourself is really to understand how this panel works. Especially what TGT 1 and TGT 2 mean (see the above explanation), and that it is not able to store two waypoints (despite the naming suggesting that).

In practice, what Jester does, and what real Phantom WSOs did was to use TGT 1 (i.e. whats currently on the panel) for any quick deviation from the flightplan, or for a reference point like Bullseye. While TGT 2 was used to memorize the "next waypoint" in the flightplan. Meaning, when you arrive there, you gotta enter and "load" (RESET position) the next waypoint coordinates into TGT 2. Which they refered to as "leapfrogging".

It is just that Jester will abstract from the technical quirks of his panel and provide you with a more modern and understandable UI, where you can simple tell him your flightplan and command him to quickly navigate elsewhere, while he will take care of working his panel to serve your request.

Edited July 30, 2024 by Zabuzard

[granola1861]

I've taken to learning the WSO job seriously and have found that if I have ME created way points I will write WP's 3 and up on the canopy. WP 1 and 2 can get set while the pilot gets me to the runway. As I work through the points I'll erase them. It's really easy to do once you get a system. Having the BE set to Target 1 is a great idea, just flick the dial for a BULLs reference then back on track!  I like it!

-Climber

Edited July 30, 2024 by granola1861

[Hammer1-1]

I just have another quick question in how to navigate from the front seat. During the training mission, Im asking Jester to plug in any waypoint, Im not seeing any needles swinging on the HSI. What should I be looking for? This would be just after takeoff, but I asked for other waypoints too without much luck. Jester doesnt say much in what to do next aftertakeoff.

Edited September 13, 2024 by Hammer1-1

[Biggus]

6 hours ago, Hammer1-1 said:

I just have another quick question in how to navigate from the front seat. During the training mission, Im asking Jester to plug in any waypoint, Im not seeing any needles swinging on the HSI. What should I be looking for? This would be just after takeoff, but I asked for other waypoints too without much luck. Jester doesnt say much in what to do next aftertakeoff.

 

The navigation training mission has a bit of a trap in it if you haven't done your homework.  The HSI knobs are in a different position to how one would normally spawn in a fresh jet.  Jester also seems to be suppressed a bit so he doesn't talk over the instructor.

The mission doesn't really teach you how to use the INS.  It's all VOR and TACAN.  There are INS waypoints and you can ask Jester to steer you to them, but you'll need to set the HSI appropriately in order to get steering information to them.  It is worth spending a little bit of time reading the manual's description of the HSI to learn how it functions.

[Hammer1-1]

17 minutes ago, Biggus said:

The navigation training mission has a bit of a trap in it if you haven't done your homework.  The HSI knobs are in a different position to how one would normally spawn in a fresh jet.  Jester also seems to be suppressed a bit so he doesn't talk over the instructor.

The mission doesn't really teach you how to use the INS.  It's all VOR and TACAN.  There are INS waypoints and you can ask Jester to steer you to them, but you'll need to set the HSI appropriately in order to get steering information to them.  It is worth spending a little bit of time reading the manual's description of the HSI to learn how it functions.

I was under the impression that the mission was to navigate to waypoints via INS, not VOR or TACAN. Im familiar with instrument navigation, but damn if INS doesnt kick my ass in any aircraft with it. Navigating via INS is tricky for people that never done it before, not really sure where to start with it. Im under the impression that the gyro would point to the waypoint when entered properly, but Im fairly certain thats not how it works...

[Biggus]

2 hours ago, Hammer1-1 said:

I was under the impression that the mission was to navigate to waypoints via INS, not VOR or TACAN. Im familiar with instrument navigation, but damn if INS doesnt kick my ass in any aircraft with it. Navigating via INS is tricky for people that never done it before, not really sure where to start with it. Im under the impression that the gyro would point to the waypoint when entered properly, but Im fairly certain thats not how it works...

Again, I'd encourage you to read the section on the HSI in the manual.

If you haven't set the HSI control knobs to nav comp, the HSI isn't using the INS as the active input.  For reference, when you spawn in the tutorial, your navigation selection panel is set up like this:

I'm sure Jester has actually set the INS to your desired waypoint, but you have not set the HSI up to provide you with steering information for the INS.

[Hammer1-1]

Ive read that part of the manual and it doesnt mention anything I didnt already know about it. My problem is I dont know where its pulling the information from and where to find the correct course I would need to plant on the HSI. I know how the HSI works, its essentially the same in all the aircraft but far less accurate due to drift. So if I put it to navcomp, the HSI should swing to the INS coordinates, right? Im sorry but this is where it gets confusing for me. Where do I get the course and heading set other than a map? In the kneeboards there are no course callouts or a flight plan that I can follow. There are no VORTAC freqs written down, which ADF radios do I need to listen to...I dunno, to me theres not enough information to process, so this is where I get stuck at. The manual seems to be more of a "what it does" manual rather than a "how to use it" manual if that makes sense.

 

Edit: now I do see it is via TACAN. That makes it a tad easier...

Edited September 14, 2024 by Hammer1-1

[Zabuzard]

If set to NAV COMP, the HSI will display steering information to the point currently selected by the WSO on his Nav Panel (right console, aft).

The WSO can select either TGT 1 (use coordinates currently entered on the panel) or TGT 2 (use memorized coordinates). The aircraft is only able to memorize one waypoint.

A WSO, and in particular Jester, will use this to steer you through an entire flightplan by memorizing the current waypoint into TGT 2, updating that whenever you passed it.
TGT 1 is then used for momentary deviations or quick references like Bullseye.
Jester makes this stuff available to you through the Jester Wheel (explanation in the manual section Jester > Navigation), where you can set up a flightplan and tell him to set it as active and/or select individual points, as well as quick deviations.

After Jester selected your desired point, all you have to do is to set both Nav knobs next to your HSI to NAV COMP, then your HSI will show the steering info.

Note that the INS shouldn't be relied on, prefer TACAN/VOR and visual references when you can and always plan in NAV FIX points on your route (Jester will support this with the upcoming update).

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

2 hours ago, Zabuzard said:

always plan in NAV FIX points on your route (Jester will support this with the upcoming update).

That’s brilliant, cheers!

[carbolicus]

On 9/14/2024 at 6:52 AM, Hammer1-1 said:

Ive read that part of the manual and it doesnt mention anything I didnt already know about it. My problem is I dont know where its pulling the information from and where to find the correct course I would need to plant on the HSI. I know how the HSI works, its essentially the same in all the aircraft but far less accurate due to drift. So if I put it to navcomp, the HSI should swing to the INS coordinates, right? Im sorry but this is where it gets confusing for me. Where do I get the course and heading set other than a map? In the kneeboards there are no course callouts or a flight plan that I can follow. There are no VORTAC freqs written down, which ADF radios do I need to listen to...I dunno, to me theres not enough information to process, so this is where I get stuck at. The manual seems to be more of a "what it does" manual rather than a "how to use it" manual if that makes sense.

 

Edit: now I do see it is via TACAN. That makes it a tad easier...

 

Just not sure about you saying that the HSI is ‘…far less accurate due to drift’?  I’m not an expert on the Phantom nor any fast jet, but surely by the time the Phantom came along, HSIs in sophisticated aircraft such as fast jets did not drift and were driven by Radio Magnetic Indicators or something similarly advanced?

It’s just that gyro drift is a phenomenon you find in relatively simple gyro-driven instruments such as Direction Indicators - any private pilot knows that every 15 minutes or so you need to hold the Cessna or whatever steady and re-set the DI by the magnetic compass.  With the Phantom I’ve flown for over an hour using TACANS and when intercepting the final approach course for an ILS approach the TACAN is always aligned with the ILS localiser.

[Hammer1-1]

3 hours ago, carbolicus said:

Just not sure about you saying that the HSI is ‘…far less accurate due to drift’?  I’m not an expert on the Phantom nor any fast jet, but surely by the time the Phantom came along, HSIs in sophisticated aircraft such as fast jets did not drift and were driven by Radio Magnetic Indicators or something similarly advanced?

 

Yes, HSI in modern aircraft with glass cockpits do drift but have a lot more behind the wheel to keep it accurate. Matter of fact, I think only the backup HSI is mechanical as everything else is GPS updated, the Garmin 1000 system is a great example. I mean I could be wrong on that, Im not an avionics tech, but what little I do know is that its mostly computer driven nowadays.

 

Im going to work on my navigation skills in the F4E as this reflects heavily in other aircraft...even the TACAN is strange to me when it shouldnt be. Matter of fact, I cant remember the last time I simuflown an aircraft with a VOR/DME navigation equipment must have been right when FSX was just coming out. Shiny new airplanes spoil people today.

Edited September 15, 2024 by Hammer1-1

[=475FG= Dawger]

The major issue in this thread is a lack of understanding of some very basic mechanical and navigation knowledge. 
 

The INS is just a mechanical version of dead reckoning navigation. That is ALL it does. 

The HSI is actually many components  

You can’t just say “the HSI doesn’t do X” and expect an intelligent response  

Which component isn’t doing what you expect? Only then can someone tell you why  

For Example: Bearing pointer not pointing at INS fix? Bearing Distance Selector knob not rotated to Nav Comp. 

Aircraft manuals are not written in order to teach navigation. It is assumed you possess the knowledge already.

Explain in detail what you are expecting to happen and I am sure someone can tell you why it isn’t. Of course, be prepared for answers like “ that isn’t how it works “

 

 

[Hammer1-1]

2 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

The major issue in this thread is a lack of understanding of some very basic mechanical and navigation knowledge. 
 

The INS is just a mechanical version of dead reckoning navigation. That is ALL it does. 

The HSI is actually many components  

You can’t just say “the HSI doesn’t do X” and expect an intelligent response  

Which component isn’t doing what you expect? Only then can someone tell you why  

For Example: Bearing pointer not pointing at INS fix? Bearing Distance Selector knob not rotated to Nav Comp. 

Aircraft manuals are not written in order to teach navigation. It is assumed you possess the knowledge already.

Explain in detail what you are expecting to happen and I am sure someone can tell you why it isn’t. Of course, be prepared for answers like “ that isn’t how it works “

 

 

Im not looking for the answer of "how it works" or "why it works", Im looking for the answer of "how do I get it to do what I want it to do". This is what impression I get when I do tutorials; you are taught how to work said system, not already being expected to know it already. Isnt that what a tutorial is? Tutorial literally translates to being a tutor to teach a point of instruction and to help you out with the problem until you can come up with the solution on your own.

noun

1. Something that provides special, often individual instruction, especially.
2. A book or class that provides instruction in a particular area.
3. A program that provides instruction for the use of a system or of software.

I do know the HSI has multiple points of input like radio direction finding, measuring equipment, precision instruments...Inertial guidance, wind drift and dead reckoning is the only thing Ive never really studied. And yes, I understand the best method of instruction is to join a squadron and learn from people who know.

 

Heres another question, where can I find the F-4E_pilot_and_takeoff_navigation.miz at? I dont see it in the missions/training folder in the mods/F-4E folder or in the saved games directory, nor is it listed on the lessons.lua file.

Edited September 15, 2024 by Hammer1-1

[=475FG= Dawger]

19 hours ago, Hammer1-1 said:

Im not looking for the answer of "how it works" or "why it works", Im looking for the answer of "how do I get it to do what I want it to do". This is what impression I get when I do tutorials; you are taught how to work said system, not already being expected to know it already. Isnt that what a tutorial is? Tutorial literally translates to being a tutor to teach a point of instruction and to help you out with the problem until you can come up with the solution on your own.

noun

1. Something that provides special, often individual instruction, especially.
2. A book or class that provides instruction in a particular area.
3. A program that provides instruction for the use of a system or of software.

I do know the HSI has multiple points of input like radio direction finding, measuring equipment, precision instruments...Inertial guidance, wind drift and dead reckoning is the only thing Ive never really studied. And yes, I understand the best method of instruction is to join a squadron and learn from people who know.

 

Heres another question, where can I find the F-4E_pilot_and_takeoff_navigation.miz at? I dont see it in the missions/training folder in the mods/F-4E folder or in the saved games directory, nor is it listed on the lessons.lua file.

 

You still haven’t told us what you want it to do. There is no way to help you if you are not more specific. 
 

The horizontal situation indicator (HSI) is not a blended navigation system as you seem to imply. 
 

It is a vertical card compass with a bearing pointer and a course needle built on top. It sure beats having the compass separate from the needles but it isn’t driven by an FMC. 
 

The bearing pointer and course needle can be driven by various inputs and each input requires that you understand its function and limitations or you will be frustrated. 

Edited September 16, 2024 by =475FG= Dawger

[Hammer1-1]

3 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

You still haven’t told us what you want it to do. There is no way to help you if you are not more specific.

I dont know what I am looking for, quite honestly. A little more clarification in the tutorial would help, quite frankly. What is the back seater using to navigate to the next waypoint if its not TACAN? Im asking for what to do to get to wp2 or 3. TACAN? Outer or inner beacon? The flight plan has coordinates for the waypoints, not any radio stations. I spent a few minutes looking for the actual training mission to cross reference in the F10 map and possibly find the kneeboards and charts so I can review them outside of the simulator. Any idea where they would be at? I am definitely missing something, and Im trying to find out what. The navigation tutorial is not located in the missions/training folder. Specifically looking for the kneeboards, but the mission as well.

and to add on, the only thing Im not familiar with even remotely would the the INS. Even in the F18, Ive no idea how to use it. If the GPS goes out, Im skrood.

Edited September 16, 2024 by Hammer1-1

[SabreDancer]

2 hours ago, Hammer1-1 said:

I dont know what I am looking for, quite honestly. A little more clarification in the tutorial would help, quite frankly. What is the back seater using to navigate to the next waypoint if its not TACAN? Im asking for what to do to get to wp2 or 3. TACAN? Outer or inner beacon? The flight plan has coordinates for the waypoints, not any radio stations. I spent a few minutes looking for the actual training mission to cross reference in the F10 map and possibly find the kneeboards and charts so I can review them outside of the simulator. Any idea where they would be at? I am definitely missing something, and Im trying to find out what. The navigation tutorial is not located in the missions/training folder. Specifically looking for the kneeboards, but the mission as well.

and to add on, the only thing Im not familiar with even remotely would the the INS. Even in the F18, Ive no idea how to use it. If the GPS goes out, Im skrood.

 

So there are a few separate things to discuss here, the mission specifically; how the INS works in the Phantom; and how INSs work in general.

In the F-4 Navigation training mission, the bearings are given in the briefing and kneeboard (under Task 4 and Task 5): for WP1, fly outbound on TACAN 67X on the 065 radial until a distance of 5.5 nautical miles, and climb to 2500 feet or higher, for example. I can see where the confusion comes from as it isn't stated in the dialogue in the mission itself. So to answer:

Quote

"What is the back seater using to navigate to the next waypoint if its not TACAN? Im asking for what to do to get to wp2 or 3. TACAN?"

 

In this mission, it's TACAN, and in this instance it's the pilot doing the setup and waypoint monitoring rather than WSO. If there were a human WSO, they could manually switch the INS waypoints, and you could use them to navigate that as well, hence the coordinates in the kneeboard. For the intended mission, though, the briefing gives radials to input on the HSI as well as expected distances to or from the beacons.

With regard to "even in the F18, Ive no idea how to use it. If the GPS goes out, I'm skrood", it's important to note that even with GPS enabled, it's still primarily using INS, just GPS-aided. So you're already familiar with how the INS works in the Hornet on a basic level, as that's what you'd have been using. If the GPS went out, it would still look and act the same, just less accurate over time.

Would you be unfamiliar with INSs in general, or just how the one in the Phantom works from a crew perspective? And similarly, would you be unfamiliar with HSIs in general, or just how the one in the Phantom works? Let me know if there's anything to clarify, happy to help answer it.

[Hammer1-1]

From my understanding, a radial is the TACAN station. Radial 185, 15 miles would be bearing 185, 15 miles from aforementioned TACAN station, correct? Am I accurate with what I think of the radials? Same thing with the VOR? How would I go about seeing that on the HSI? I guess that would be the question of the day. How would I get that radial dialed in on the HSI with the TACAN station tuned in?

I cant really visualize something like this on a map, Id have to physically have the map in hand to see which direction I would need to turn in order to keep an accurate plotted course. That alone sounds like a handful of work to do.  The way I have my sim set up makes it hard to read the kneeboards on the fly since my monitor is like 5 feet away from me.  I just got done doing the F-14 navigation tutorial and for some reason it wasnt all this difficult...so why does it seem so hard to do in the F4?? See, in the F14 the HSI moves directly to wp3 when I ask Jester to do so. Pressing the TACAN button swings the HSI towards the transmitter. The HSI doesnt do that in the F4 when I ask Jester to select any waypoint....unless I am missing something. Ill do the training mission again and triple check my settings.

Edited September 16, 2024 by Hammer1-1

[TOViper]

59 minutes ago, Hammer1-1 said:

From my understanding, a radial is the TACAN station.
Comment: No, its a direction (mostly having "magnetic" as reference, not "true") TO or FROM a station.

Radial 185, 15 miles would be bearing 185, 15 miles from aforementioned TACAN station, correct?
Comment: Yes. With having both the radial and the distance you literally have a point on the map, consider this.

Am I accurate with what I think of the radials? Same thing with the VOR?
Comment: Yes, basically same thing.

How would I go about seeing that on the HSI? I guess that would be the question of the day.
Comment:
Set https://f4.manuals.heatblur.se/cockpit/pilot/flight_director_group.html#bearingdistance-knob to TAC.
Set https://f4.manuals.heatblur.se/cockpit/pilot/flight_director_group.html#mode-selector-knob-display-functions to TAC.

How would I get that radial dialed in on the HSI with the TACAN station tuned in?
Comment: Turn the "Course Set knob" so as to show to 185° in the indication window (labelled COURSE) just left of the knob.

I cant really visualize something like this on a map, Id have to physically have the map in hand to see which direction I would need to turn in order to keep an accurate plotted course.
Comment: You may use F-10 map and the ruler / distance function.

That alone sounds like a handful of work to do. 
Comment: There are bigger challenges waiting out there ... trust me; this task in fact is just dialing 3 knobs: 2 knobs to TAC, one knob to 185 and then fly.
Comment: You know that you are on radial 185 when the deviation indicator is centered in the instrument. This has NOTHING to do with where your nose is pointing to.
Comment: You know that you are 15 miles away from the station when the distance indicator shows 0000 miles.

Hello Hammer 1-1, I hHope you find your way through the jungle. In any way, read through this, which may help:

https://f4.manuals.heatblur.se/dcs/training_missions.html#lesson-04---tips--tricks

Edited September 16, 2024 by TOViper

[Hammer1-1]

39 minutes ago, TOViper said:

Hello Hammer 1-1, I hHope you find your way through the jungle. In any way, read through this, which may help:

https://f4.manuals.heatblur.se/dcs/training_missions.html#lesson-04---tips--tricks

 

Didnt know the F4 had an autopilot though, thats new to me...

Edited September 16, 2024 by Hammer1-1