fixed Huge SP performance degradation with 2.9.7.58923 and 2.9.6.58056 compared to DCS 2.9.5.55918

[SharpeXB]

6 minutes ago, av8orDave said:

But the point is… it is no longer an “open beta” branch. The game ran fine enough til the last update, and then bang, were trying to troubleshoot so that paid campaigns are playable. Ugh.

I get the frustration but you definitely need to give them specs, settings a track or log in order for them to evaluate things. 

Edited August 30, 2024 by SharpeXB

[Dustbag1969]

I have been having massive performance loss since the last 2 updates and was ready to give up on DCS for a few weeks and see if it improved.
I decided to give it one last go tonight and on a F4 mission that I was getting 20fps last night I am now getting a steady 60fps.

The only change I made was to disable HAGS in my display settings and this seemed to make a massive difference. Tomorrow I will try switching it back on and see if my fps plummets again but for tonight I am just happy to be able to fly again.

7800X3D
B650 Gaming X AX
RTX 4080
2Tb M2 drive
HP Reverb G2

[A Hamburgler]

2 hours ago, Dustbag1969 said:

I have been having massive performance loss since the last 2 updates and was ready to give up on DCS for a few weeks and see if it improved.
I decided to give it one last go tonight and on a F4 mission that I was getting 20fps last night I am now getting a steady 60fps.

The only change I made was to disable HAGS in my display settings and this seemed to make a massive difference. Tomorrow I will try switching it back on and see if my fps plummets again but for tonight I am just happy to be able to fly again.

7800X3D
B650 Gaming X AX
RTX 4080
2Tb M2 drive
HP Reverb G2

Was this just a general FPS decrease across the board or was this a FPS decrease in large complex missions only?

[diego999]

On 8/29/2024 at 5:06 PM, Moezilla said:

Using @tmz's miz from the first post I ran back-to-back tests in 2.9.5 and 2.9.7 with the same options.lua. The results were as described before with the 2.9.5 running as expected and spending plenty of time at the set fps cap of 95. The 2.9.7 run struggled to get out of single-digit fps. I then ran the test again with RTSS overlay running in order to use presentmon to gather frame metric data. I think the CPUBusy metric points to what many have already suggested, which is that whatever new "logic" was added in 2.9.6/2.9.7 has resulted in missions that were playable becoming completely CPU-bottlenecked and unplayable.

2.9.5

2.9.7

 

Wow. This is pathetic on ED's end.

We reported this after the first unified version. And it seems it got worse. Way worse.

I've parked DCS for the time being as I can't even run my own missions, which is absurd. The very same missions I could run no problem in the last open beta. Playing a Retribution or Liberation campaign is a distant dream by now.

It's really sad because buried under all these bugs there is an amazing game trying to shine.

Edited August 31, 2024 by diego999

[RedeyeStorm]

10 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

The machine I ran DCS on 10 years ago would not run it well today. Players want the game to do more and more with every improvement but that carries a cost. 

That does happen but in this case the reports (including my own experience) all indicate that without any hardware or setting changes the fps dropped after the update(s). In my case from 45 fps in flight to 10 fps in flight. That is not outdated hardware that is a software problem. Hardware would only become outdated after a major feature update. This is not the case with the recent updates.

[SilentGreen]

Following the thread for a while now and i think we have to differentiate between two kinds of performance bugs here. On one side we have users with degrading fps since the last few updates, and on the other hand we have users with degrading performance caused by high cpu-load. Reducing graphic-settings may help if you count yourself to the first category, but not if you belong to the second one. Furthermore, if your cpu is saturated (main-thread / render-thread) you may lose fps as well, simply because the cpu cannot shovel the data fast enough to your graphicscard.

In my personal case i can say, that fiddling around with graphics settings wouldn't change anything. Simply because my 6900XT is idling around and the frametimes are skyhigh because the cpu-load on one core is maxed out (using MT by the way, but one core is ALWAYS saturated after some time into the mission in SP, depends on the number of active units), whatever DCS is doing on this one.

Additional it's not only the game itself, that kind of performance problem also happens on the dedicated server, which doesn't have any rendering to do at all.
And... im pretty sure to say, it has something to do with groundunits in particular. I have a mission i was playing with some friends that worked for months without problems, and that was fine with 2.9.5. Now at 2.9.7 even the dedicated server starts crashing ~1h into the mission because the cpu-load on one core is so high, that the server is completely unresponsive. In the past the mission could handle ~900 groundunits without problems, now it struggles with something like ~300. And yes i know, the dedicated server is ST, but that single thread is not supposed to set it's corresponding cpu core permanent to 100% - at least, it was not in the past.

Edited August 31, 2024 by SilentGreen

[pixie]

I am not sure "optimizations and improvments" are the words we were expecting at this point.
In my world, you cannot optimize or improve something that is utterly broken.
Whether something can be fixed or not. 

Maybe it's time to have an honest talk and think about a proper roll back procedure.
That's not ideal, but the MP community might consider rolling back to 2.9.5 and stay there as long as needed.

If ED cannot fix its own sim, because it's a mess built upon layers of old code. So be it. 
2.9.5 might be the end of the road... 

I'm not venting, I'm simply trying to assess my options to keep on flying with my squadron mates.


 

 

Edited September 3, 2024 by pixie

[FPS_Sage]

Jumping in to say I have also been experiencing major performance issues lately.  i5-9600k, 2080 8GB, 16GB RAM, Win10.  So I admit it's no longer the most powerful computer out there, but it used to be able to run the game very well before the latest patches.  Now, even at the main menu, I see the mouse cursor stuttering every 5 seconds seconds or so.  In fact, looking at task manager, one core is completely pegged out at 100%, and another core has very high utilization as well.  This is just sitting at the main menu. 

When flying, I'm getting a lot of stutters as well, even on very simple missions (for example, the built-in mission for the F18 that has you dogfighting a single Mig-21 on the Nevada map - not huge AI unit count there).

Looking forward to a solution for this.

[Scotch75]

Jumping in to say I have also been experiencing major performance issues lately.  i5-9600k, 2080 8GB, 16GB RAM, Win10.  So I admit it's no longer the most powerful computer out there, but it used to be able to run the game very well before the latest patches.  Now, even at the main menu, I see the mouse cursor stuttering every 5 seconds seconds or so.  In fact, looking at task manager, one core is completely pegged out at 100%, and another core has very high utilization as well.  This is just sitting at the main menu. 
When flying, I'm getting a lot of stutters as well, even on very simple missions (for example, the built-in mission for the F18 that has you dogfighting a single Mig-21 on the Nevada map - not huge AI unit count there).
Looking forward to a solution for this.

Hey Sage, I have an older CPU (i5-6600K) and get the same thing. I can play online servers generally ok, or SP missions with very little units when I do the following work-around. When you load into DCS, start task manager, choose details tab, right click DCS.exe, choose Affinity, un-tick CPU 0, hit ok. Then chose Affinity again, tick CPU 0, hit ok, ALT-TAB back into DCS.
Cheers!


Sent from my SM-G998B using Tapatalk

[Robi Hobby]

What I don't understand is: I start DCS World MT in VR (Quest 3) and I'm only in the Main Menu. And my RTX 3090 goes up to 86°C and the Fans are running at full Speed?

Why? I'm not flying a Module, I'm just in the Main Menu. Very dubious.

Edited September 1, 2024 by Robi Hobby

[FPS_Sage]

16 hours ago, Scotch75 said:

Hey Sage, I have an older CPU (i5-6600K) and get the same thing. I can play online servers generally ok, or SP missions with very little units when I do the following work-around. When you load into DCS, start task manager, choose details tab, right click DCS.exe, choose Affinity, un-tick CPU 0, hit ok. Then chose Affinity again, tick CPU 0, hit ok, ALT-TAB back into DCS.
Cheers!


Sent from my SM-G998B using Tapatalk
 

Thank you, Scotch - toggling the affinity seemed to help the performance at the main menu.  Still getting lots of stuttering when actually flying, but at least the main menu is smoother now!

[Archangel44]

I hope ED gets this sorted out soon, finds the issue, fixes it and keeps it from happening again.

With my rig, playing in MT or standard with just me doing a fly over in any map, I still get the stutters and 1/4 second freezes. Not always but it happens enough to be annoying.

Again, wasn’t like this before.

I appreciate the new maps, updates to graphics and new planes/choppers.

[Scotch75]

Thank you, Scotch - toggling the affinity seemed to help the performance at the main menu.  Still getting lots of stuttering when actually flying, but at least the main menu is smoother now!

You'll have to do the same process whenever you load into the cockpit. I even do it when re-slotting, PITA.

Cheers!


Sent from my SM-G998B using Tapatalk

[Rene Coulon]

On 8/31/2024 at 11:59 PM, pixie said:

I am not sure "optimizations an improvments" are the words we were expecting at this point.
In my world, you cannot optimize or improve something that is utterly broken.
Whether something can be fixed or not. 

Maybe it's time to have an honest talk and think about a proper roll back procedure.
That's not ideal, but the MP community might consider rolling back to 2.9.5 and stay there as long as needed.

If ED cannot fix its own sim, because it's a mess built upon layers of old code. So be it. 
2.9.5 might be the end of the road... 

I'm not venting, I'm simply trying to assess my options to keep on flying with my squadron mates.


 

 

 

ED MUST enable a roll back function on the LOAD page. It should not be up to us to have to puzzle for days to try and recover a broken Sim. Or the other option is to bring back OPEN BETA and STABLE. what ever they do, this mess needs fixing, for me DCS is in the Bin until it becomes playable again.

[tmz]

4 hours ago, Rene Coulon said:

ED MUST enable a roll back function on the LOAD page. It should not be up to us to have to puzzle for days to try and recover a broken Sim. Or the other option is to bring back OPEN BETA and STABLE. what ever they do, this mess needs fixing, for me DCS is in the Bin until it becomes playable again.

Same here. As it stands, paid campaigns or dynamic campaigns like Retribution are out of the question at the moment, which are my primary interest in DCS. It's been what, four updates since the regression?

[pixie]

ED has failed to deliver a dynamic campaign through the last 10 yrs or so. There are reasons for this, good and bad.
Retribution is the best thing that happened to DCS and actually the closest thing we had to a proper DC.
I'm gutted it's no longer working. 
Looking at a screenshot contest waiting for "optimization" is a bitter consolation. DCS has never felt so beautiful and... empty.

All my squadron is considering rolling back to 2.9.5,  alpha testing is definitely not our thing. I believe there is a command line for the updater.exe, but I'm not sure if Steam allows it.

Who has some experience rolling back steam clients and dedicated servers ?

 

Edited September 3, 2024 by pixie
typo

[Rene Coulon]

18 hours ago, pixie said:

ED has failed to deliver a dynamic campaign through the last 10 yrs or so. There are reasons for this, good and bad.
Retribution is the best thing that happened to DCS and actually the closest thing we had to a proper DC.
I'm gutted it's no longer working. 
Looking at a screenshot contest waiting for "optimization" is a bitter consolation. DCS has never felt so beautiful and... empty.

All my squadron is considering rolling back to 2.9.5,  alpha testing is definitely not our thing. I believe there is a command line for the updater.exe, but I'm not sure if Steam allows it.

Who has some experience rolling back steam clients and dedicated servers ?

 

 

This is what ED need to give us...a Safe and tested...Step by Step procedure to roll back to 2.9.5, or Do it for all of us the next time they touch anything. Then BETA test the hell out of the latest patches ,figure out what the heck went wrong...fix it, then we can move forward.

I dont care about pretty pictures....Because for me the Sim is BUSTED 

[SharpeXB]

3 hours ago, Rene Coulon said:

This is what ED need to give us...a Safe and tested...Step by Step procedure to roll back to 2.9.5

Rolling back would be crazy because so many new modules or new features of modules wouldn’t work. It’s like asking them to support multiple game versions. Not a good option. 

21 hours ago, pixie said:

Retribution is the best thing that happened to DCS and actually the closest thing we had to a proper DC.

I’m sure it’s a great add-on but it’s not official content. Perhaps it’s up to the creator to adapt this to the demands of the current game. DLC creators should have unit density options as well, I know some do. 

[tmz]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Rolling back would be crazy because so many new modules or new features of modules wouldn’t work. It’s like asking them to support multiple game versions. Not a good option.

It's the one I've been using since 2.9.6 came out, after completely reimaging my machine fixed nothing.

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

I’m sure it’s a great add-on but it’s not official content. Perhaps it’s up to the creator to adapt this to the demands of the current game. DLC creators should have unit density options as well, I know some do. 

We do have density options in Retribution, and culling... but it's not just Retribution that is impacted, is it? It's a lot of paid campaigns as well. FIWOS for instance. Haven't tried Reflected's campaigns but heard some were impacted as well.

Currently it's 50 up to 100 flying units and 10 ground units per frontline that are recommended on the Retribution Discord. A war with 50 flying units up and 20 ground units fighting each other? Come on.

The whole point of this thread is that in 2.9.5 it worked (and still works) appropriately, in 2.9.6 and 2.9.7 we had enhancements that were so drastic that even a 4090 and a last-gen x3d processor cannot run missions that used to work anymore.

So while only "Stable" (sic) remains, a little bit more testing on the dev side and a little less testing on the end-user side would be appreciated, on the "Stable" (sic) branch and longer dev cycle that we were sold as a way to get a more "Stable" (sic) product.

[SharpeXB]

14 minutes ago, tmz said:

A war with 50 flying units up and 20 ground units fighting each other? Come on.

No game is going to have realistic numbers so you might as well not worry about it. 

14 minutes ago, tmz said:

The whole point of this thread is that in 2.9.5 it worked (and still works) appropriately, in 2.9.6 and 2.9.7 we had enhancements that were so drastic that even a 4090 and a last-gen x3d processor cannot run missions that used to work anymore.

A 4090 will run the game in max settings in 4K at 90-120FPS. Even on heavy missions. You may have some hardware issues. Whenever I’ve had problems in games, it’s not the game. Something on my end was broken. 

Edited September 3, 2024 by SharpeXB

[SharpeXB]

On 8/9/2024 at 4:10 PM, tmz said:

A mission (attached) that is playing perfectly on 2.9.5 shows a huge CPU usage with 2.9.7. As an example, I get 20-30 FPS in VR, 20-50 FPS in pancake with 2.9.7 compared to 72 FPS (max rate set on the headset) in VR or 75 (max FPS set in DCS) pancake with 2.9.5.

I get between 106 and 117 (my screen max) on the benchmark mission with the system below and these settings. The Nvidia settings are all the defaults except for the Max Frame Rate. DCS is all max in 4K

Edited September 3, 2024 by SharpeXB

[A Hamburgler]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

No game is going to have realistic numbers so you might as well not worry about it. 

A 4090 will run the game in max settings in 4K at 90-120FPS. Even on heavy missions. You may have some hardware issues. Whenever I’ve had problems in games, it’s not the game. Something on my end was broken. 

 

You’re missing the point. 2.9.5 could easily run a mission with over 900 units. This creates an environment with multiple threats and complex packages. Now missions can only handle 100 or less units. This creates an empty environment with nothing going on. Again this is not a hardware or user problem. Missing the point again the missions still run fine with 900 plus units on 2.9.5. 

Edited September 3, 2024 by A Hamburgler

[SharpeXB]

9 minutes ago, A Hamburgler said:

You’re missing the point. 2.9.5 could easily run a mission with over 900 units. This creates an environment with multiple threats and complex packages. Now missions can only handle 100 or less units. This creates an empty environment with nothing going on. Again this is not a hardware or user problem. Missing the point again the missions still run fine with 900 plus units on 2.9.5. 

Obviously the game has to balance its ability to run many units with all the other features players want. You can’t have everything. I’m sure the game could have 10,000 units in it if it looked like something from 2004 but that’s not what most people want. In the end it is a hardware limitation that you’re up against.

Judging by the results in my previous post I think there are some hardware/ system problems involved here too. 

Edited September 3, 2024 by SharpeXB

[A Hamburgler]

3 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Obviously the game has to balance its ability to run many units with all the other features players want. You can’t have everything. I’m sure the game could have 10,000 units in it if it looked like something from 2004 but that’s not what most people want. In the end it is a hardware limitation that you’re up against.

Judging by the results in my previous post I think there are some hardware/ system problems involved here too. 

 

So with that aspect they might as well cancel the dynamic campaign. Two four ship flights and 10 ground units for a thrilling environment. 

[tmz]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

No game is going to have realistic numbers so you might as well not worry about it. 

A 4090 will run the game in max settings in 4K at 90-120FPS. Even on heavy missions. You may have some hardware issues. Whenever I’ve had problems in games, it’s not the game. Something on my end was broken. 

 

See that’s what I’m having trouble with… with 2.9.5 all is fine, with 2.9.6/2.9.7 everything turns to crap. Hence this thread. If something is broken on my end, fine, and I’m happy to send ED any track log or spend time to debug this.

But something is broken on a lot of users systems. And this is definitely systematic for us Retribution users.

What’s your config for my information?