Thoughts on the campaign

[happyhappy]

There is a lot of communication and it feels immersive.

But the mission itself was monotonous.

Enter coordinates, bomb, rotate, rotate, rotate... repeat... it just spins.

Was it a tutorial campaign?

 

Sorry, it was boring.

 

 

 

[dimanizer]

5 hours ago, happyhappy said:

...
Enter coordinates, bomb, rotate, rotate, rotate... repeat... it just spins.

...

Isn't that what CAS/Strike missions are?

I'm not quite done yet, but I thought that the mission variety was pretty neat with twists and turns along the way. Got to use different weapons in different scenarios. Liked the voice acting, for the most part, and found the writing in the briefings very good and quite funny at times (and the script in one of the missions too!).

The main criticism from me is with regard to missions where you're not playing as the flight lead. The flying to/from the mission area in formation was not my favorite part, because beyond a bit of banter nothing happens. I like to time-accelerate through those sections, but having to fly in formation with the lead makes that challenging. I realize that these transitions are part of what pilots do, it's there for immersion and adds to the variety, so this is just my personal preference. Being the lead would have allowed to get through this faster. For example, the hog escort mission (the one with the really funny bit) - I think that it basically has no replay value since there's very little action. That said, this mission really adds to the variety and that's awesome. I just think it could benefit from being much shorter.  I also realize that we probably don't have to fly the formation and could just go to the next steerpoint and wait for the lead to join and mission to continue.

The other area where I think this campaign falls short is in lack of actual threats. I think there's only one mission where there's a chance of getting hit and needing to fight vs just attacking, and even that is short lived (the popup manpad in the other mission with hogs). This takes away from replay value and I think that the Weasels Over Syria campaign does this much better. 

Overall I'd give it a 4/5.

[baltic_dragon]

Thanks guys for your feedback.

@happyhappy - this campaign is based on real life scenarions, and we only chose the most interesting ones, if we wanted to make it even more realistic, it would really be boring. IRL ops re based on "hurry up and wait" motto and most of the time it is just breaking holes in the clouds. 

@dimanizer I get your point about transit times etc, but I'm focusing on making things authentic and flying in formation and transit times are just part of the deal. Fortunately there are quite a few good 3rd party campaign devs with different styles so everyone will find what they like most. And 4/5 is actually a very good result, so thanks for that!

[happyhappy]

3 hours ago, dimanizer said:

それがCAS/Strikeミッションではないでしょうか？

まだ完全には終わっていませんが、ミッションの多様性は途中の紆余曲折があってなかなか良いと思いました。さまざまなシナリオでさまざまな武器を使用できました。大部分で声優の演技が気に入りましたし、ブリーフィングの文章も非常に良く、時々かなり面白いと思いました（ミッションの1つのスクリプトも！）。

私からの主な批判は、あなたが飛行隊長としてプレイしていないミッションに関するものです。編隊を組んでミッションエリアに出入りする飛行は、ちょっとした冗談を言う以外は何も起こらないので、あまり好きな部分ではありませんでした。私はそれらのセクションで時間加速をするのが好きですが、隊長と編隊を組んで飛行しなければならないのはそれを難しくします。これらの移行はパイロットの仕事の一部であり、没入感を高め、多様性を加えるためのものであることは理解していますので、これは私の個人的な好みです。隊長であれば、これをより早く終わらせることができたでしょう。たとえば、豚の護衛ミッション（本当に面白い部分があるミッション）は、アクションがほとんどないので、基本的にリプレイの価値はないと思います。そうは言っても、このミッションはバラエティに富んでいて素晴らしいです。ただ、もっと短くしたほうがいいと思います。また、編隊飛行する必要はなく、次のステアポイントに行って先頭が合流するのを待ってミッションを続行することもできると思います。

このキャンペーンが不十分だと思うもう 1 つの領域は、実際の脅威が不足していることです。攻撃を受ける可能性があり、攻撃するのではなく戦う必要があるミッションは 1 つだけだと思いますが、それも長続きしません (豚がいる別のミッションでポップアップするマンパッド)。これによりリプレイの価値が損なわれ、Weasels Over Syria キャンペーンの方がこの点ははるかに優れていると思います。 

全体的に 4/5 の評価です。

Various weapons...

This is a spoiler.

Even if you put a gun　I only use five types, Most missions are AGM65 and GBU12 only

All threats are basically motionless.

Basically all the threats are not working, I was not hit even once.

The weather was good and I never flew below 17,000 ft, and I never even used chaff.

In Mission 13, I personally laughed at the last target in the campaign.

 

The missions are all the same after the middle part of the game, so there isn't much variety overall.

The trigger would not occur if the weapon was destroyed with a weapon other than the specified weapon, and there were a lot of bugs.

Users aren't there to test play.

 

I like the Baltic Dragon campaign, so I was looking forward to it.

 

 

 

[baltic_dragon]

Well, this is how many of the sorties of OIR looked - there was no real threat, as ISIS didn't have any significant ground to air weapons. The campaign was working 100% before the release, but the patch that released it introduced bugs to at least half of the missions which I already fixed, but that is completely out of my hands.  I am aware that you cannot please everyone, though! 

[drspankle]

I'm up to mission 4 and it's very slow and frustrating so far.  A case in point would be M4 where, after my wingman detects a convoy and we engage as directed, nothing at all happens.  There are tons of tgts on the deck but no option to report them.  That's not SCAR.  You need to be able to report them and request instructions.  Instead we returned to the IP, flew in circles till bingo, and then RTB'd only to not pass the mission.

Realism is one thing, but this needs more 'game'.

[Gribbstar]

On 8/16/2024 at 8:00 PM, drspankle said:

I'm up to mission 4 and it's very slow and frustrating so far.  A case in point would be M4 where, after my wingman detects a convoy and we engage as directed, nothing at all happens.

You mean the convoy containing the bus with the flag on? We are never instructed or authorised to attack that.

Here is roughly how mission 4 should go: 

Edit: PS. Love the campaign. I'm here for realistic immersion and this delivers.

Edited August 18, 2024 by Gribbstar

[Gunnar81]

Hi BD, I am only half way through but this campaign has the same great qualities of your past work (TEW, Iron Flag and Ottoman Courier) but also has some snappy new features. This one is really helping me come to grips with the F-16 and I am finding I love the little bird more than I thought. Shhh don't tell the Harrier or Hog I said that.

 

Great work again.

[drspankle]

22 hours ago, Gribbstar said:

You mean the convoy containing the bus with the flag on? We are never instructed or authorised to attack that.

Sorry I meant M3, but I have the same issue with M4.  I get to where my wingman calls contact on the trucks and mortars, we call it up the chain, get permission to strike, hit them, and then nothing happens.  There are countless targets out there that for real you'd be calling in and requesting clearance to strike but there's no option to do this.

 

 

[Jayhawk1971]

Of note: M4 worked flawlessly for me yesterday, so apparently my CBU killed the whole mortar position immediately.

[Ostach]

Hi, I've completed up to mission 8. 

 

What I like:

- Comms - I feel like there's so much more going on in the airspace.

- realistic 9-line procedure with jtac

- a lot is going on on the ground sometimes

- fencing in/out

- all those random events

 

What I don't like:

- some segments are boring. A lot of flying in cirles or without clearance to engage

- some counter intuitive approaches - nothing going on for a long time if I'm a wingman and reached H4 first

- in missions I played I didn't feel threatened (I know, I know - realistic air superiority and limited syrian SAM capabilities)

 

Overall its nice experience but issues with missions not proceeding or crashing pulls me out of immersion.

[Viking 1-1]

Hmm.

Seems a lot of people complaining about not enough "bang bang" in this campaign.

I'm half way through and I have to say that I'm very impressed. I have a lot of fun BECAUSE it is realistic and therefore sometimes a bit slow paced.

I was shaking my head when we went out for a briefed strike on briefed target BUT STILL had to call wizard and asked for a go.

I thought that kind of bureaucracy only takes part where I'm from...

I think it is really great, since this is what happens there in real life, and therefore I really appreciate that this is not "pumped up to Hollywood levels" but is as it is.

Thanks for that! At the end I want to play a immersive and most of all a realistic campaign. And this is what we get here.

One of the coolest flights I ever did in MP was a CAP sortie along the Iranian border in a tomcat. My wingman and me spent there like little over two hours and nothing happened. Still was a great flight at the end.

[baltic_dragon]

Thanks guys for your feedback. We wanted to make a realistic campaign and looking at all your comments - I think we managed to nail it  if you talk to fighter pilots (and we did discuss it with Rain and Casmo in the ACS podcast about the Gamblers), in most instances combat is MUCH slower than what the movies will show you (of course with exceptions). Talking back and forth, planning, checking targets, re-checking them is part of real life procedures and this campaign is all about it. If you are looking for a bang-bang style quick action - you will be disappointed & I won't hold it against you, but that will just prove my point. However, if you stick to it, you will find missions where things are happening really fast (like: M10 for instance and battle for Raqqua). 

Another thing which is realistic are threats. In IOR there weren't too many unless you flew too low. And then in one mission where you do show of force and where you have a MANPAD, there are a lot of complaints that it is too deadly... can't please everyone I guess! 

[Shack]

I'm having a great time with this Campaign. Love it. 

I especially love the attention to detail with the Briefings and Briefing cards. 

Good voiceovers, and role play.  I've actually improved my skills using the TPOD! 

Possible suggestions for future Campaigns:

1. Integrating options to have RW emergencies  Abnormals requiring to use the Emergency Checklist and based on how that issue is dealt with - influencing the rest of the mission.

2. Can the missions be wrapped up into a Dynamic Campaign engine ? Where player progress influences the war map ( ala BMS style ) ? 

3. Leaving the MGRS coordinates and 9 Line info text visible until the player confirms ? 

4. Dynamic Weather requiring instrument approaches ( since DCS doesn't have a viable ATC System) giving players the option of flying RW instrument approaches via IAF segments to a landing ? 

5. F-16 player as FAC - controlling the BAI / CAS coordination

6. Adding Offensive Counter Air - vs Syrian / Russian MiGs / Airfields

Great job - Looking forward to more for the Viper ! 

[baltic_dragon]

@Shack thanks for these! Quick answers:

Ad 1: can do, like for M01

Ad 2: no idea, but for the moment the answer is no, and most likely will remain as such even when DC is out...

Ad 3: I can't, as currently the squelch sound is linked to the time of the subtitle on the screen... so it really sounds weird. But that is why you have option to ask for the stuff to be repeated as many times as you want

Ad 4: Dynamic weather does not use new cloud system and is extremely difficult to master, so it is out of question I think.

Ad 5: sure, oable

Ad 6: not really realistic in this setting, we were recreating real life events - and there was only one strike against Syrian airfield, which is already in the campaign.

Cheers! BD

[Ostach]

Ad 3 - In the Weasels over Syria campaign coordinates stay in the top right corner of the screen with an option to dismiss them even though those are Lat/Long and can be put in real time into the SPT or MARK page.

[baltic_dragon]

Yup, but it's a matter of preference. I think it is more realistic (and cooler) to be able to ask for the coordinates to be repeated so you can note them down. And Weasels over Syria is a great campaign!

[Jayhawk1971]

Suggestion for mission 13:

Could you give us more time to set up the jet properly when starting behind the tanker? Both Reflected and Ground Pounder have the player start in some form of active pause, and only after pressing a key (space, IIRC) does the mission start (and the assets then spawn in).

Having first to trim, then to set up all my preference, at night - while trying to fly formation - threw me off, and I felt I was "behind the jet" during the mission (= couldn't get my head in the game as I felt I had to play catch-up).

Other than that: What a great campaign! Incredibly immersive, and I did learn a lot about the Viper, even though I'm not at all new to that jet (had my first "run in" with the Viper with Falcon during my Amiga days). I can't believe I'm already at the final mission! 

Edited September 10, 2024 by Jayhawk1971
added stuff, fixed typo

[baltic_dragon]

Glad you like it! Not sure if at this point late spawning the flight lead wouldn't cause problems later on (you have to be very careful with DCS and AI), but I could make the FL follow tanker longer until you are ready to move on.. would that work?

[Jayhawk1971]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb baltic_dragon:

Glad you like it! Not sure if at this point late spawning the flight lead wouldn't cause problems later on (you have to be very careful with DCS and AI), but I could make the FL follow tanker longer until you are ready to move on.. would that work?

Yep, that solution should work too. As  longs as it's not too much of a hassle to implement. 

Since Autopilot doesn't work very well with my Force Feedback stick, I always have to have half an eye on the HUD to check attitude while being heads down in the cockpit, and with VR there isn't much peripheral vision. So a little bit more time to set things up (especially the kneeboards, ECM, MFD contrast) would be nice. 

[Shack]

This is more of a DCS World suggestion, but it would be great to see different color buildings / styles than the same repeating geometric shapes while examining a target area through the TPOD. I wonder if DCS has any plans for making the topography more real world with different styles / colors of the city buildings ?  It would also be easier in identifying targets.  I like the idea of the Solar Panels on top of the building that was being targeted in one of the missions.

Edited September 14, 2024 by Shack

[Oilman100]

I really wanted to enjoy this campaign as the F-16 deserves it but after 3 missions I'm somewhat disappointed, there are allot of good elements, the radio setup and general feel of the missions are great and fills you full of anticipation. I found the radio transmissions for the most part had too much static and I had to read the text as the voices were lost in the background noise, however the voice overs were at the right frequency and kept you involved but you do need to listen very carefully. The missions themselves are somewhat boring, be prepared to formation fly for hundreds of miles with pretty much nothing happening, I've read in earlier posts to use acc time and I understand this. I just didn't get mission 2, fly formation in complete darkness for 90 mins to watch some bombs fall (albeit not mine) and then fly the whole way back and then get asked to got to the tanker even thought I had over 7000lbs left, no sense in this. In mission 3  at least I was the lead, again very long transit but then some action, which was short but enjoyable, went back to holding area and reported in and got confirmation and told to hold for further instruction which never came. After 20 mins of waiting I was running low on fuel so decided to go to the Tanker, unfortunately it was further away than home base, managed to land with 150lbs of fuel, can't say the  same for my wingman who fell out of the sky at the IP. I know from the briefing that I should have been called in by JTAC but that never happened. Pretty much 4 hrs into this campaign and becoming very disinterested, I can handle the long transit times but then as the campaign is so prescriptive and a bug stops a trigger, you pretty much have to start again.

[baltic_dragon]

@Oilman100 it seems to me you must have missed some triggers, nowhere in the campaign you have to wait for 20 minutes for something to happen. Now there can be many reasons: do you have any unofficial mods installed? Of course I know you cannot please everyone and combat in the aircraft is a rather slow business with a lot back and forth before any action happens (though there are exceptions like M11 and 13 for instance). In any case we decided with Rain to go for as much realism as possible, though it also looks like in M3 you must have run into a bug.. hm - did you engage the convoy yourself using the GBUs?

[Oilman100]

In missions 3 I believe there was a known bug and it was corrected in the last update, haven’t tried it yet but will this week. Appreciate the reply, there is always a balance with realism and enjoyment v endurement. I remember your original A-10C campaign, "Enemy Within" I think, it was a real classic and replayable, I don’t want to detract from your work as it is top notch and painstakingly done to create a real experience. Looking forward to your Artic Thunder campaign and comparing it the Reflected Simulations one. 

[Gilligan]

Wrapped this campaign up a couple of weeks ago, and took some time to digest my experience and think about it, and while I wanted to love the campaign, as I am a big fan of Rain and his podcast, and with the knowledge that BD is a respected developer with a proven track record, I didn't enjoy it as much as I had hoped. There were definitely some high points that I did enjoy, and there were plenty of positives, but it was not without its, what were in my opinion, drawbacks either.

 

I absolutely understand and respect the dedication to realism with regard to this campaign, so I will not say that the campaign was boring as a negative, I will say however, that it did feel very "on rails." I did not feel that I had much freedom, if any at all, to accomplish missions with any degree of autonomy. The bindable "1 or 2" binary input system, while streamlined and easy to use while in flight, I don't think offers as much leeway as more options in the F10 menu may have. My answers to questions were pretty limited to basic "yes, no" as to if I had weapons to accomplish a task, or enough fuel to RTB, or if myself or my wingman was going to attack a target first - In comparison to to other campaigns where you can chose which target you feel is the most important to attack, as well as the option to order your wingman to engage a variety of targets to assist you. On the other hand, I somewhat understand why this was the case due to (what in the end was a really cool and immersive aspect of the campaign) the specific, and detailed 9-line information from JTACS, or the "Shooter, Cover" instructions from flight leads having to be pre-recorded and not leaving much room for dynamic decision making. On that topic, I really enjoyed both of those aspects, the realistic 9-Lines and having to input coordinates in MRGS format forced me to learn and expand my own skillset as a "DCS pilot," and the "Shooter, Cover" instructions were just cool and fun to have included. Being "heavily scripted," imo, was both a blessing and a curse for this campaign.

Some specific highlights that I think really showed the potential of the campaign in my opinion were:

Mission 1, after the landing gear failed to drop - this was actually really engaging and having to work through the checklist and get the gear to drop by other means was a very immersive experience and I felt really accomplished for knowing where the required items were in the cockpit and pulling the landing off.

mission 3, where we had to engage and eventually strafe the convoy outside of As Sukhnah.

mission 5, escorting rattlesnake was fun and a cool experience.

Missions 7 and 8 were both pretty straight forward and fun to fly. While 8 felt a little bit on rails after the initial JDAM drop, the firework show was cool to watch.

Mission 9 felt like the only actual "wild weasel" mission in what was otherwise a CAS heavy campaign. I enjoyed it for that reason primarily, and despite a bug where one of the SA6 batteries failed to activate, still found it a fun and engaging mission. Watching the cruise missiles hit the airfield was pretty neat too. 

Mission 11 - I enjoyed the pace of action and the chaotic feel of the fight. 

Some specific Issues that I encountered and felt were particularly frustrating or because they were completely mission breaking:

Mission 4 where the wingman would bug out and the mission would not progress after the CBU drop on the mortar site.

Mission 6 after the Jordanian pilot from Tiger flight goes down, I tracked his chute with my tpod and wasted a lot of time looking in the area he actually landed for the technical I was supposed to engage, found one and killed it, but it turned out to be the wrong one. All the while I was supposed to have been looking several miles away from where his shoot landed at the fishing depot after he was magically teleported to somewhere near there. This was very immersion breaking and I felt like I was punished for actually tracking his chute and looking where that landed vs gaming it.

Mission 12 - I encountered a mission breaking bug with Tally where she would not engage her technical unless I waited and let her shoot first before I shot at mine. It's really frustrating to execute everything correctly and still have to play a mission multiple times due to a bug like this. 

 

There was a lot of potential here for a great campaign. Unfortunately the mission breaking bugs and feeling like the missions were on rails really kept it from being what I felt it could have been in the end.