Aircraft readiness for FFB

[Mr_sukebe]

Looks like we're about to see an influx of FFB joysticks in the near future.

I get the impression that some aircraft modules are in a good state and some could do with some TLC.

Anyone got a list of the readiness of FFB by aircraft, such that we can both manage pilot expectations and also see who we should ask for better prioritisation of FFB.

[propeler]

1 hour ago, Mr_sukebe said:

Anyone got a list of the readiness of FFB by aircraft, such that we can both manage pilot expectations and also see who we should ask for better prioritisation of FFB.

The list of module readines to FFB:

- none...

 

 There is no single module that is ready, realistic, or even close. There could be FFB for some extent in game. But it is mostly primitive and not takes into account device that will be reproducing effects. All "realism" is around effects generated from telemetry by FFB device developers software and matter of how close to reality someone can make a profile for it. In most cases it's just an reflection of thoughts how some airplane could feel.

 

 

Edited August 29 by propeler

[SharpeXB]

It does seem intriguing that FFB looks to be making a comeback. The trouble is it’s been absent so long I wonder how well supported it would be. If you try racing sims and feel the amazing sophistication of this there, the idea of having such quality in flight sims is appealing. But it would take a great deal of work on the devs part. Plus FFB is just essential for racing, but for flight? I imagine some FBW aircraft have little or no feedback. No idea really what it would mean for those aircraft. 

Edited August 29 by SharpeXB

[MAXsenna]

Looks like we're about to see an influx of FFB joysticks in the near future.
I get the impression that some aircraft modules are in a good state and some could do with some TLC.
Anyone got a list of the readiness of FFB by aircraft, such that we can both manage pilot expectations and also see who we should ask for better prioritisation of FFB.

Now I do in a way agree with propeler. BUT! The telemetry part does not really interest me. What was a game changer for me was magnetic brake in helicopters. The stick moving when you trim certain aircraft so you actually feel the trim position. Not all do this in real life. Stick shaker when you're about to stall. Loss of airflow due to speed in certain modules. And the resistance of the stick due to airflow in certain modules.
Top of my head, modules that support some of all of the above. All Helicopters except the Chinook. All Heatblur modules. The F-4 has the special effects for how it's implemented in the real thing. And have it explained if you look for it.
All Warbirds. The trainers C-101, MB-339 and the L-39. The FC2024 modules where appropriate. F-5, even has a special setting. Mig-15, NOT the Sabre as it didn't have it in the real thing. Don't remember the Harrier and MiG-19. Obviously not FBW modules. The F-15E. The Jeff, A-10s, F-1, MiG-21, Yak-52. Don't remember the CEII, while I assume it.
Did I miss any? I have'm all.
In short. ALL supports FFB in one way or another in a rudimentary way out of the box where applicable. If it's correct, real or whatever I can't answer. But without telemetry. For that you need special software.
Reading through posts, I look at it personally very different from others. I do not need to feel the guns or what not if it wasn't in the real thing. For that we have seats and bass shakers. Absolutely my personal opinion.
Cheers!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[Hiob]

Funny thing is, when you use TelemFFB with the Rhino, you don't even notice that the FFB implementation of the Chinook is missing or incomplete.

That is the beauty of it - all effects work perfectly uniformly throughout all modules.

Of course that doesn't benefit users of other devices or free ED from delivering a proper integration.

[Shrimp]

Even FBW aircraft benefit from proper FFB implementation.

For the stick travel limits (usually nose down travel is smaller than nose up travel) and different forces vs displacement from different FFB aircraft.

Examples: F-16 having a very small stick travel; Mirage 2000 having a very steep force increase from 80% to 100% nose up travel.

With Brunner CLS2SIM it is possible to do all this.

Brunner CLS2Sim DCS Profiles by Shrimp (2024-08-29).zip

Edited August 29 by Shrimp
Typo

[MAXsenna]

Even FFB aircraft benefit from proper FFB implementation.
For the stick travel limits (usually nose down travel is smaller than nose up travel) and different forces vs displacement from different FFB aircraft.
Examples: F-16 having a very small stick travel; Mirage 2000 having a very steep force increase from 80% to 100% nose up travel.
With Brunner CLS2SIM it is possible to do all this.
Brunner CLS2Sim DCS Profiles by Shrimp (2024-08-29).zip

Sure. You meant FBW. Btw. The F-5 already has this. And some of the FC modules IIRC.
The F-16 deserves a force sensing stick. If you limit the the travel of a normal stick. What you think happens to the overall fidelity of the stick?

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[Shrimp]

2 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Sure. You meant FBW. Btw. The F-5 already has this. And some of the FC modules IIRC.
The F-16 deserves a force sensing stick. If you limit the the travel of a normal stick. What you think happens to the overall fidelity of the stick?

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

Yes, FBW, thanks. Already edited.

 

I have the Brunner CLS-P and the F-16 profile is very realistic. There´s only one small issue that the (CLS-P and E) force near the center has a bit of slack (does not immediately bite) and the travel has to be just a bit bigger than the real F-16 so that it is not too sensitive, leading to overcontrol.

Overall the effect is very, very good and in the CLS-P, because the max torque is perfect (50 Nm), the virtual stop is as good as a mechanical stop because it is close to impossible to overcome the torque, even with two hands.

 

A dedicated F-16 base is good for nothing but the F-16.

For the sake of versatility, a high torque FFB is the the facto jack of all trades for virtual pilots wanting to fly everything.

 

As a side note I have handled the real F-16 side stick, the RealSimulator FSSB-R3 Lighting and the Brunner CLS-P with a proper F-16 profile (still tweaking it) and the CLS-P has only the above mentioned limitation. The R3 is too soft (low torque) even at max setting of 13 pounds.

[MAXsenna]

Yes, FBW, thanks. Already edited.
 
I have the Brunner CLS-P and the F-16 profile is very realistic. There´s only one small issue that the (CLS-P and E) force near the center has a bit of slack (does not immediately bite) and the travel has to be just a bit bigger than the real F-16 so that it is not too sensitive, leading to overcontrol.
Overall the effect is very, very good and in the CLS-P, because the max torque is perfect (50 Nm), the virtual stop is as good as a mechanical stop because it is close to impossible to overcome the torque, even with two hands.
 
A dedicated F-16 base is good for nothing but the F-16.
For the sake of versatility, a high torque FFB is the the facto jack of all trades for virtual pilots wanting to fly everything.
 
As a side note I have handled the real F-16 side stick, the RealSimulator FSSB-R3 Lighting and the Brunner CLS-P with a proper F-16 profile (still tweaking it) and the CLS-P has only the above mentioned limitation. The R3 is too soft (low torque) even at max setting of 13 pounds.

Thanks! Great info!
Not sure what you mean by low torque on the Realsim base. Does it move at all? Could you explain some more?
To be honest, I want a side stick for the Viper, and not for anything else.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[Shrimp]

The real F-16 stick has the following characteristics:
Fixed force
Trim does not move stick
Rotated slightly cw
1/4 inch (0.635 cm) both axis
Up   = 25 lb
Down = 16 lb
Roll = 17 lb

 

The RealSimulator FSSB-R3 Lighting:

Sensibility control for Pitch in 4 levels 4, 6, 9 and 13 pounds.

Sensibility control for Roll in 4 levels. 2.5, 4.5, 6.5 and 13 pounds.

Full scale control with 4 levels, 1:1, 3:4, 1:2 & 1:4.

 

Because virtual pilots are not fully physically engaged in flying the virtual aircraft as opposed to real pilots who must endure physical forces as g´s, vibration etc... and more easily apply extreme forces on the flight controls it is, in my view, a balanced compromise for immersion that the virtual flight controls are 2/3 of the total force of the real counterpart.

In this view the R3 is on the light side for my taste, needing to have a 17 lb rate on the Pitch axis.

It moves very similarly to the real F-16 stick.

 

Please understand that this is my concept on this subject.

The RealSimulator FSSB-R3 Lighting is a good device.

 

 

[MAXsenna]

The real F-16 stick has the following characteristics:
Fixed force
Trim does not move stick
Rotated slightly cw
1/4 inch (0.635 cm) both axis
Up   = 25 lb
Down = 16 lb
Roll = 17 lb
 
The RealSimulator FSSB-R3 Lighting:
Sensibility control for Pitch in 4 levels 4, 6, 9 and 13 pounds.
Sensibility control for Roll in 4 levels. 2.5, 4.5, 6.5 and 13 pounds.
Full scale control with 4 levels, 1:1, 3:4, 1:2 & 1:4.
 
Because virtual pilots are not fully physically engaged in flying the virtual aircraft as opposed to real pilots who must endure physical forces as g´s, vibration etc... and more easily apply extreme forces on the flight controls it is, in my view, a balanced compromise for immersion that the virtual flight controls are 2/3 of the total force of the real counterpart.
In this view the R3 is on the light side for my taste, needing to have a 17 lb rate on the Pitch axis.
It moves very similarly to the real F-16 stick.
 
Please understand that this is my concept on this subject.
The RealSimulator FSSB-R3 Lighting is a good device.
 
 

I see. Well, I'm waiting for rel4y's mod anyway, in which you can have the full realistic force if you so wish.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[erniedaoage]

I use a msffb2 and ffb works for me with every module i own, except the razbam ones. Even the a4 community mod works great out of the box. 

[MAXsenna]

I use a msffb2 and ffb works for me with every module i own, except the razbam ones. Even the a4 community mod works great out of the box. 

I haven't flown any Raz modules in a while except for the SE, where it works. What features are missing from the other modules?
Cheers!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[erniedaoage]

Sticktrim doesn't work and the last time i checked the mig19 and harrier both felt like its a spring loaded stick. Without any feedback at all.

[some1]

To answer OP, It all depends on what you consider realistic and what are your expectations.

There are two schools of making FFB. Either we only simulate the forces that are transmitted by the aircraft controls in real life, or we add more feedback "rumble" and other effects, that in reality the pilot feels through the airframe and seat, not the stick. Things like runway bumps, gun vibrations, buffeting etc. ED consistently follows the former school of thought, so FFB in their modules is rather "dry", even if technically correct. As for 3rd party DCS devs, it's sometimes the former, sometimes the latter (Heatblur, Deka, Aerges). If you're missing these extra effects, joystick telemetry software from the stick manufacturer is your only option.

In real life, most modern high performance aircraft and all helicopters have irreversible flight controls, so unless the real thing is equipped with artificial feel systems, nothing comes through the control stick except force trim. And the trim is also artificial and not related to the airflow. 

As for the current DCS lineup:

- M2000, F/A-18 and F-16 do not even have force trim IRL, so there's no FFB in those in DCS, they behave like a spring stick. CH-47 is also missing any FFB, but that's WIP. 

- Helicopters other than CH-47 all have force trim, which is a real game changer for them. While in the fixed wing aircraft force trim is nice to have, but one can live without it, in helicopters it transforms the way you fly. In the Huey and Kiowa you can also turn the centering force completely with a flick of a cockpit switch, which is how they were flown in real life most of the time.

- Razbam modules lacked any FFB for a long time. In one of the last patches before the conflict with ED, they added simple force trim to the Harrier and Eagle. But it's badly implemented and it's better to use joystick software for trim if possible. Mig-19 still lacks even that.

- WWII aircraft, jet trainers and MiG-15 have mechanically linked controls IRL, so in DCS you will feel the forces increase as you accelerate down the runway, buffeting, etc. There's room for improvements for sure, but the basics are there.

- Other jets have irreversible controls so there isn't much FFB apart from force trim, just as in real life. There are exceptions, like the F1 and MiG-21, which adjust stick forces in pitch depending on airspeed, or F-4 which has even more complex artificial pitch feel system, simulated by Heatblur (although that one could use some tweaking to work better on mainstream FFB devices). 

- Several DCS modules have the force trim incorrectly implemented. These are Razbam's Harrier and Eagle mentioned above, MB-339 and Heatblur's Viggen. Also the Community A-4, but I've no idea if the modders can do anything about that. It's not that the trim is unusable, it works, maybe even faster than usual, because the non-FFB trim in those aircraft still works on top of force trim and moves the stick in the cockpit by itself, so the two trims add up.

Edited September 6 by some1

[Greekbull]

On 8/29/2024 at 6:50 PM, MAXsenna said:

I see. Well, I'm waiting for rel4y's mod anyway, in which you can have the full realistic force if you so wish.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

What is this rel4y's mod?  Is there anywhere I can read up on it?  Will it work for the VPForce Rhino?  

Thanks

[MAXsenna]

What is this rel4y's mod?  Is there anywhere I can read up on it?  Will it work for the VPForce Rhino?  
Thanks

No. It's a Force Sensing Mod. It's got nothing to do with Force Feedback. It's similar to the RealSimulator bases and replaces the gimbals in the TM Cougar and Warthog bases. I want it for the Viper, an FFB base for the rest.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

Sticktrim doesn't work and the last time i checked the mig19 and harrier both felt like its a spring loaded stick. Without any feedback at all.

Thanks. I remember incorrectly then.
Cheers!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[Greekbull]

1 hour ago, MAXsenna said:

No. It's a Force Sensing Mod. It's got nothing to do with Force Feedback. It's similar to the RealSimulator bases and replaces the gimbals in the TM Cougar and Warthog bases. I want it for the Viper, an FFB base for the rest.
 

Ok thanks!

[Hiob]

On 9/6/2024 at 4:33 PM, some1 said:

To answer OP, It all depends on what you consider realistic and what are your expectations.

There are two schools of making FFB. Either we only simulate the forces that are transmitted by the aircraft controls in real life, or we add more feedback "rumble" and other effects, that in reality the pilot feels through the airframe and seat, not the stick. Things like runway bumps, gun vibrations, buffeting etc. ED consistently follows the former school of thought, so FFB in their modules is rather "dry", even if technically correct. As for 3rd party DCS devs, it's sometimes the former, sometimes the latter (Heatblur, Deka, Aerges). If you're missing these extra effects, joystick telemetry software from the stick manufacturer is your only option.

This is what makes the Rhino so great (with the TelemFFB software). You can have a complete set of effects in any aircraft including force trim on a hardware level if necessary. (I didn’t even notice the Chinook was lacking)

Granted, if the sim doesn‘t support proper ffb from the control surfaces on the stick, you are limited to secondary effects. But those very basics are present in most modules.

And the creator of Telem really did a phenomenal job in creating a plethora of useful and immersive effects, lots of them customisable in great depth. And he hasn‘t stopped developing new ones so far.

Edited September 8 by Hiob