not a bug RWS (Appears to) Support AIM-120 Launch

[itsthatguy]

You can launch AIM-120's from RWS and get all of the proper symbology as if the aircraft was actually supporting the launch, even though (in theory) any launch straight from RWS should be an unsupported "maddog". I do not know if these missiles are actually being supported even though they shouldn't, or if the aircraft is providing bogus missile tracking, time to active, and TTI indications.

F18_RWS_Bug.trk RWS_BUG_120.log

[Tholozor]

The Hornet has Latent Track While Scan (LTWS) enabled by default when in RWS. AFAIK if L&S is designated it should support AMRAAM, although the trackfile update rate will be more dependent on the azimuth and bar scan settings.

Edited September 3, 2024 by Tholozor

[Muchocracker]

To add to the above. post launch uplinks are dependent on MSI trackfiles and the source used to create it. Independent of the radar mode. 

[itsthatguy]

9 hours ago, Muchocracker said:

To add to the above. post launch uplinks are dependent on MSI trackfiles and the source used to create it. Independent of the radar mode. 

Gotcha, I was just going off of this line on page 177 in the manual:

Also, at 6:39 of the relevant Wags video: 

I could not track down any changelog item that noted this change in behavior, so I thought it was a bug.

 

[Muchocracker]

32 minutes ago, itsthatguy said:

Gotcha, I was just going off of this line on page 177 in the manual:

Also, at 6:39 of the relevant Wags video: 

I could not track down any changelog item that noted this change in behavior, so I thought it was a bug.

 

Lot of this has changed over the years as MSI became a more understood system. You'd be surprised of what it's actually capable of how much we're missing from it. 

Edited September 3, 2024 by Muchocracker

[falcon_120]

42 minutes ago, Muchocracker said:

Lot of this has changed over the years as MSI became a more understood system. You'd be surprised of what it's actually capable of how much we're missing from it. 

 

I do hope ED will have a look again to the promised MSI missing features, specially being able to designate off board tracks in TWS so the AUTO option makes any sense in terms of flow... right now is a total mess, needing to map the AUTO/Manual PBI option which as far as i know is not normally changed IRL.

Edited September 3, 2024 by falcon_120

[Muchocracker]

1 minute ago, falcon_120 said:

I do hope ED will have a look again to the promised MSI missing features, specially being able to designate off board tracks in TWS so the AUTO option makes any sense in terms of flow... right now is a total mess, needing to map the AUTO/Manual PBI option which as far as i know if not normally changed IRL.

 

you and me both

[itsthatguy]

1 hour ago, Muchocracker said:

Lot of this has changed over the years as MSI became a more understood system. You'd be surprised of what it's actually capable of how much we're missing from it. 

 

So then what's the actual difference (in DCS) between RWS with LWTS and TWS, other than TWS having a scan volume limit and RWS with LTWS not having access to the EXPand function?

 

Also, I was under the impression that IRL, taking an AIM-120 shot would automatically switch the radar to TWS in AUTO mode, with the option to return to RWS.

[Muchocracker]

3 minutes ago, itsthatguy said:

So then what's the actual difference (in DCS) between RWS with LWTS and TWS, other than TWS having a scan volume limit and RWS with LTWS not having access to the EXPand function?

Also not having automatic scan centering but more or less. 

 

 

4 minutes ago, itsthatguy said:

Also, I was under the impression that IRL, taking an AIM-120 shot would automatically switch the radar to TWS in AUTO mode, with the option to return to RWS.

Correct. We just don't have it yet. 

[Xhonas]

9 hours ago, falcon_120 said:

I do hope ED will have a look again to the promised MSI missing features, specially being able to designate off board tracks in TWS so the AUTO option makes any sense in terms of flow... right now is a total mess, needing to map the AUTO/Manual PBI option which as far as i know is not normally changed IRL.

 

What does that mean? having to switch from manual to auto to keep the scan centered on the target is incorrect? 

[Muchocracker]

37 minutes ago, Xhonas said:

What does that mean? having to switch from manual to auto to keep the scan centered on the target is incorrect? 

No, it means in normal operation you shouldn't really have to touch the scan centering. Because if we had full MSI we can designate any ranked trackfile (from any source, including SURV tracks) as the L&S and then TWS Auto centers on whatever you selected. 

[falcon_120]

So right now the way it works in DCS is the following:
-You have track files coming from other sources (red and green simbols for illustration purposes). However, when you're in TWS you can only bug those tracks that are seen by your Radar, and thus your TWS AUTO scan will not center on a target until you can detect it and bug it.
Problem: If you are in TWS auto with one contact bugged; let's say at the left of your scope and going low, and a more relevant threat appears; lets say at a higer altitude or some 50/60 degrees to your the right of your scan area, you cannot do anything to select that contact if at that moment its outside your radar coverage, the current implementation is preventing you from this when you are in AUTO TWS. The way around this is clicking MANUAL, moving your radar cone to the more relevant threat, and once detected by your radar and designated it click AUTO again to manevour freely without having to adjust manually the scan height and azimuth.
 
CORRECT IMPLEMENTATION (based on MSI known information for which i don't have the sources but is described even in some of the available NATOPS manuals).
-Any MSI track is a track, meaning that your weapon system doesn't care if your radar is seeing it or not (track might be generated by RWR, LINK16, FLIR...), your radar is just a contributor to this track system, the most reliable contributor. This means you can designate tracks, whether your radar is in silence, or whether your radar is looking to a different target and have not yet picked that track contact. In this scenario when you go TWS AUTO you don't change that setting again (well in most scenarios with AWACS or other C2 assets giving you track information). Since you can select any track presented in your radar scope, and the radar automatically be centered around it, even before it picks it. This is why a lot of people talks how bad the F18 radar works and how difficult is to manage not beeing HOTAS and requiring a lot of MFD presses.
Now a different discussion is whether you actually need your radar on for the launch phase, and there is no public information on that so we should assume that you do need your radar on before launching a Amraam at a track. 5th gen fighter on the other hand can launch amraam that are supported by other assets so they can remain totally silent...

[MARLAN_]

9 hours ago, falcon_120 said:

So right now the way it works in DCS is the following:
-You have track files coming from other sources (red and green simbols for illustration purposes). However, when you're in TWS you can only bug those tracks that are seen by your Radar, and thus your TWS AUTO scan will not center on a target until you can detect it and bug it.
Problem: If you are in TWS auto with one contact bugged; let's say at the left of your scope and going low, and a more relevant threat appears; lets say at a higer altitude or some 50/60 degrees to your the right of your scan area, you cannot do anything to select that contact if at that moment its outside your radar coverage, the current implementation is preventing you from this when you are in AUTO TWS. The way around this is clicking MANUAL, moving your radar cone to the more relevant threat, and once detected by your radar and designated it click AUTO again to manevour freely without having to adjust manually the scan height and azimuth.
 
CORRECT IMPLEMENTATION (based on MSI known information for which i don't have the sources but is described even in some of the available NATOPS manuals).
-Any MSI track is a track, meaning that your weapon system doesn't care if your radar is seeing it or not (track might be generated by RWR, LINK16, FLIR...), your radar is just a contributor to this track system, the most reliable contributor. This means you can designate tracks, whether your radar is in silence, or whether your radar is looking to a different target and have not yet picked that track contact. In this scenario when you go TWS AUTO you don't change that setting again (well in most scenarios with AWACS or other C2 assets giving you track information). Since you can select any track presented in your radar scope, and the radar automatically be centered around it, even before it picks it. This is why a lot of people talks how bad the F18 radar works and how difficult is to manage not beeing HOTAS and requiring a lot of MFD presses.
Now a different discussion is whether you actually need your radar on for the launch phase, and there is no public information on that so we should assume that you do need your radar on before launching a Amraam at a track. 5th gen fighter on the other hand can launch amraam that are supported by other assets so they can remain totally silent...


 

You do not need your radar on to launch, you will just have very poor track quality. There is also special handling for firing with the radar set to silent (quick look mode).

[falcon_120]

You do not need your radar on to launch, you will just have very poor track quality. There is also special handling for firing with the radar set to silent (quick look mode).

Yeah, thats what i thought to be the case for later version like superhornet and F22/F35 just not sure if it was the case for our lot20, but it makes sense, in the end if you have a track you have a position to send to your missile, now depending on the track quality this position and speed will actually be very accurate or very low confidence. I suspect there is a minimum track quality that allows a amraam shot (eg. not just a rwr generated track).

Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk

[Hobel]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb falcon_120:

whether your radar is in silence

 

vor einer Stunde schrieb MARLAN_:

You do not need your radar on to launch, you will just have very poor track quality. There is also special handling for firing with the radar set to silent (quick look mode).

 

However, the Aim120c still needs MLINK updates from the host aircraft.

Is this a given when the radar is in silience?

[Harker]

3 hours ago, falcon_120 said:

... in the end if you have a track you have a position to send to your missile, now depending on the track quality this position and speed will actually be very accurate or very low confidence. I suspect there is a minimum track quality that allows a amraam shot (eg. not just a rwr generated track).

Indeed, but due to the trackfile quality from MIDS being generally low, the MC will notify you in a few ways. If the L&S does not have radar contribution, then you will get a " NO RDR" cue on the RDR ATTK page and below the TD box on the HUD.