annoying air fueling task as last mission

[wywsy22]

Hi, i playing the Operation Alliance_Mission 6: Operation Incirlik but i keep blow away by the tanker.

I have very interest play all thing in DCS but never for air refueling, i always skip and exclude any air fueling task after few months try in the beginning i play DCS, this is too ridiculous & impossible to do it. Air fueling is the most upset and annoying for me.

but i like this campaign and as the last mission i want try to complete it.  

i try turn off the wake turbulence, use simple game mode, off g effect etc, it still nothing change.

i try with update to latest version and now even the external light can not on.

did i miss or setting something wrong? can help  

 

 

[Phantom711]

vor 21 Minuten schrieb wywsy22:

i try with update to latest version and now even the external light can not on.

 

You mean the external lights on your Hornet? You probably forgot to turn on the „External lights master switch“. It is a pinky switch on the throttle. 
 

As for your Air Refueling: Sorry, that‘s a skill issue. I fly in a virtual squadron and we do this almost every mission…there is really not witchcraft involved…
But please, let‘s not start the umpteenth „How to AAR“ thread. Use the search function here in the forum.

[wywsy22]

Hi Phantom711,

ya stupid me , i miss the master switch L, the air fueling mission make me very nervous and tension to keep "sticking" the nose into the "net"

i know it sure was my skill issue, but every time i use alot of time to almost come close then suddenly a 'big force' push me aside, so "unfair"

every time i so nervous to recovery then more terrible i fly nowhere.  

[rob10]

Like Phantom711, I don't want to turn this into a how to AAR thread, but if you're getting pushed aside at the last minute you're probably getting above the wing level of tanker which can put you into significant turbulence off it.

[wywsy22]

Hi,

i have try untick the wake turbulence, why it no help? 

is it i miss setting any thing again?

Edited November 3, 2024 by wywsy22

[SabreDancer]

It can be forced enabled on the mission side.

[Black Viking]

Aerial Refueling is Tough, But Don't Despair!

It's been a year now that I’ve been playing DCS very regularly, and I’ve developed a real passion for it. Like many, I couldn’t manage to refuel in the air, which was a major source of frustration for me. After all, how can you talk about realistic simulation without aerial refueling?

But I finally succeeded by using a bit of strategy.

I started with some observations:

- Managing three axes simultaneously is hard (pitch, roll, speed).
- HOTAS controls aren’t that precise for throttle adjustments.
- I’m neither Pete Mitchell nor Tom Cruise.
- I’m old, with the finesse of a wild boar.

Some will rightly tell you that the key is practice and patience. Oh yes, thank you, guys!

For me, the key is to only manage two axes...

Here’s my method:

1 - Reaching Pre-contact Position

After locating the tanker on TACAN, lock the radar to track your closing speed. Contact the tanker to know its speed, but note that it's only an approximate speed. Move quickly to within 5 nautical miles, then start slowing down, as the F-18 brakes about as well as a billiard ball. You’ll enter the turbulence of the tanker’s wake: trim gently.

2 - At Pre-contact

In my view, this is where it all happens. Stabilize the F-18 in tight formation with the tanker. The HUD heading chevron should be vertically aligned under the pod that still holds the basket. Sync your speed with the tanker and make a note of it! Take your time to trim.

3 - Connection

Request refueling. The basket descends. Advance the throttle slightly. Speed increases. Once you gain 1 knot, press the T key (ATC: Auto Throttle Control). I highly recommend programming this on your HOTAS to avoid losing visual contact. Your speed is now locked, and your forward movement is very slow. You only have two axes to manage: pitch and roll!
Once you’ve activated ATC, pull the throttle back slightly without disengaging ATC.
All the usual advice applies here: stay calm, make tiny adjustments with your arm resting on the desk, breathe deeply, etc.
Keep an eye on the chevron to align under the pod and watch the basket only with peripheral vision. Don’t focus too much on the velocity vector or the horizon, as you may lose concentration. Remind that, at the moment of the connection, the basket is within 0 and 5 horizontal levels. The center is behind the right support of the HUD.

4 - Maintaining the Connection

Focus on the chevron only. Let the F-18 move forward; you have a +1 knot speed differential. When you feel the basket getting too close to its pod, disengage ATC. Since you reduced throttle slightly in the previous step, your speed decreases. Engage ATC again after losing 1 knot.

And there you have it; I’m certainly not an ace, but now I can do it!

[MAXsenna]

2 hours ago, Black Viking said:

Aerial Refueling is Tough, But Don't Despair!

It's been a year now that I’ve been playing DCS very regularly, and I’ve developed a real passion for it. Like many, I couldn’t manage to refuel in the air, which was a major source of frustration for me. After all, how can you talk about realistic simulation without aerial refueling?

But I finally succeeded by using a bit of strategy.

I started with some observations:

- Managing three axes simultaneously is hard (pitch, roll, speed).
- HOTAS controls aren’t that precise for throttle adjustments.
- I’m neither Pete Mitchell nor Tom Cruise.
- I’m old, with the finesse of a wild boar.

Some will rightly tell you that the key is practice and patience. Oh yes, thank you, guys!

For me, the key is to only manage two axes...

Here’s my method:

1 - Reaching Pre-contact Position

After locating the tanker on TACAN, lock the radar to track your closing speed. Contact the tanker to know its speed, but note that it's only an approximate speed. Move quickly to within 5 nautical miles, then start slowing down, as the F-18 brakes about as well as a billiard ball. You’ll enter the turbulence of the tanker’s wake: trim gently.

2 - At Pre-contact

In my view, this is where it all happens. Stabilize the F-18 in tight formation with the tanker. The HUD heading chevron should be vertically aligned under the pod that still holds the basket. Sync your speed with the tanker and make a note of it! Take your time to trim.

3 - Connection

Request refueling. The basket descends. Advance the throttle slightly. Speed increases. Once you gain 1 knot, press the T key (ATC: Auto Throttle Control). I highly recommend programming this on your HOTAS to avoid losing visual contact. Your speed is now locked, and your forward movement is very slow. You only have two axes to manage: pitch and roll!
Once you’ve activated ATC, pull the throttle back slightly without disengaging ATC.
All the usual advice applies here: stay calm, make tiny adjustments with your arm resting on the desk, breathe deeply, etc.
Keep an eye on the chevron to align under the pod and watch the basket only with peripheral vision. Don’t focus too much on the velocity vector or the horizon, as you may lose concentration. Remind that, at the moment of the connection, the basket is within 0 and 5 horizontal levels. The center is behind the right support of the HUD.

4 - Maintaining the Connection

Focus on the chevron only. Let the F-18 move forward; you have a +1 knot speed differential. When you feel the basket getting too close to its pod, disengage ATC. Since you reduced throttle slightly in the previous step, your speed decreases. Engage ATC again after losing 1 knot.

And there you have it; I’m certainly not an ace, but now I can do it!

We all do it differently I guess.  

1.

A. Why not just use one of the included refueling missions. You save time, are placed behind the tanker. No need to mess with TACAN and finding the tanker. 

B. Trim? Why? The F/A-18C is a fly by wire aircraft and will trim itself to 1.0G. So no need to mess with it while practicing. The included missions have a balanced plane. No need to start out harder when practising. 

2. Yes, practicing formation is the key to it all. Learn to use the throttles. It's not really that hard if one puts in the effort. Forget about the speed. If you practice formation you will know. Try to see both the pod, wings and the tanker in your sight picture. You will easily be able to judge if your gaining or lagging in the tanker. The sight picture will also be highly individual depending on the personal settings of the FOV. 

3. Request rejoin before you approach the tanker, then you don't have to mess with it while lining up. Even declare pre contact when you're close enough for the same reason.

Forget the HUD, focus on the tanker and formation flying. Yes, it's boring, but it is what gets you there faster. I agree, don't focus on the basket. It's harder in the Viking after the update with the shorter hose. 

4. Formation, forget about the basket. You're connected. Fly formation with the tanker. 

Whatever floats your boat. I've never tried the ATC. Might be a neat trick. Personally, I think it's better just to learn formation flying, as that will be the same for every module and every tanker. 

I use VoiceAttack with VAICOM, so I just speak the radio commands. Especially handy for the pre contact command. And saves me buttons and clicks on my HOTAS.

When practising. Turn off wake turbulence. Make sure you sit in a comfortable natural position. And try to not squeeze the throttle and grip too much. It will get you tired and frustrated. The throttle will not be in the same position ever. That's why formation flying is so important. And yes, boring. 

If one has the Super Carrier. Start with the Su-33. It's by far the easiest one to learn in. 

My 2 cents. Cheers and happy practice!  

 

 

[Foka]

Many don't know - there is a keybind for "Ready pre-contact" call. It's useful to bind it on HOTAS.

I highly recommend NOT using any ATC or autopilot during AAR or formation flying. Just fly enough hours to learn it.

[MAXsenna]

46 minutes ago, Foka said:

Many don't know - there is a keybind for "Ready pre-contact" call. It's useful to bind it on HOTAS.

That is true. But you'll loose a button. If you don't want to lose a button, map the radio PTTs to your HOTAS, then configure a hat, (any), to browse the menu. I never remember where it is. GUI layer? What's neat about that, is that you can for instance use your trim hat, and and it will switch to browsing mode when the radio menu is open, and revert to trimming when the radio menu is closed. Sort of LIKE how the GUI for George and Petrovich works.

49 minutes ago, Foka said:

I highly recommend NOT using any ATC or autopilot during AAR or formation flying. Just fly enough hours to learn it.

Agree. 

[Dragon1-1]

Also, I'm not sure which tanker this is, but try to learn on something that isn't the S-3. That one is the hardest tanker to take gas from, mostly because the envelope is tiny. Learn on a KC-130 or a -135MPRS, then progress to the S-3.

[MAXsenna]

Also, I'm not sure which tanker this is, but try to learn on something that isn't the S-3. That one is the hardest tanker to take gas from, mostly because the envelope is tiny. Learn on a KC-130 or a -135MPRS, then progress to the S-3.

True, and it's kinda funny ED only provides missions with the S-3 for the Hornet.

[Dragon1-1]

I wonder if it's because it was the first basket tanker on the US side. The model was recently updated, but the old one was much older than the other two. I'm not quite sure on the timeline, but Hornet missions are, for most part, quite old, as well. I wouldn't be surprised if it was simply all they had to use for it.

Edited November 16, 2024 by Dragon1-1

[Tenkom]

22 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

That is true. But you'll loose a button. If you don't want to lose a button, map the radio PTTs to your HOTAS, then configure a hat, (any), to browse the menu. I never remember where it is. GUI layer? What's neat about that, is that you can for instance use your trim hat, and and it will switch to browsing mode when the radio menu is open, and revert to trimming when the radio menu is closed. Sort of LIKE how the GUI for George and Petrovich works.

Agree. 

You just casually dropped the best tip I've seen for DCS in a long time! I didn't even know this was possible. I've been annoyed by the radio menu for years wondering why they don't do something like the radial menu in the tomcat. This isn't quite that good but it still makes this MUCH better. Thank you!

Is it possible to move the location of the radio menu too perhaps? 

[MAXsenna]

13 hours ago, Tenkom said:

You just casually dropped the best tip I've seen for DCS in a long time! I didn't even know this was possible.

Yeah, they "casually" dropped in the changelog a year ago or so. Just like you can have "off" positions for toggle switches. Seen that?  

13 hours ago, Tenkom said:

why they don't do something like the radial menu in the tomcat.

VAICOM supporte Jester in the Tomcat... 

13 hours ago, Tenkom said:

Is it possible to move the location of the radio menu too perhaps?

Yeees, but you'll have to mess with the core files, and it might break IC. I cannot fathom why these QoL settings are not placed in Saved Games and/or drag'n drop like IFLOLS.  

[Phantom711]

@MAXsenna

I agree with Tankom…this is a great tip! Thanks!

Edited November 17, 2024 by Phantom711

[J4ckson]

Am 15.11.2024 um 19:24 schrieb Black Viking:

Aerial Refueling is Tough, But Don't Despair!

It's been a year now that I’ve been playing DCS very regularly, and I’ve developed a real passion for it. Like many, I couldn’t manage to refuel in the air, which was a major source of frustration for me. After all, how can you talk about realistic simulation without aerial refueling?

But I finally succeeded by using a bit of strategy.

I started with some observations:

- Managing three axes simultaneously is hard (pitch, roll, speed).
- HOTAS controls aren’t that precise for throttle adjustments.
- I’m neither Pete Mitchell nor Tom Cruise.
- I’m old, with the finesse of a wild boar.

Some will rightly tell you that the key is practice and patience. Oh yes, thank you, guys!

For me, the key is to only manage two axes...

Here’s my method:

1 - Reaching Pre-contact Position

After locating the tanker on TACAN, lock the radar to track your closing speed. Contact the tanker to know its speed, but note that it's only an approximate speed. Move quickly to within 5 nautical miles, then start slowing down, as the F-18 brakes about as well as a billiard ball. You’ll enter the turbulence of the tanker’s wake: trim gently.

2 - At Pre-contact

In my view, this is where it all happens. Stabilize the F-18 in tight formation with the tanker. The HUD heading chevron should be vertically aligned under the pod that still holds the basket. Sync your speed with the tanker and make a note of it! Take your time to trim.

3 - Connection

Request refueling. The basket descends. Advance the throttle slightly. Speed increases. Once you gain 1 knot, press the T key (ATC: Auto Throttle Control). I highly recommend programming this on your HOTAS to avoid losing visual contact. Your speed is now locked, and your forward movement is very slow. You only have two axes to manage: pitch and roll!
Once you’ve activated ATC, pull the throttle back slightly without disengaging ATC.
All the usual advice applies here: stay calm, make tiny adjustments with your arm resting on the desk, breathe deeply, etc.
Keep an eye on the chevron to align under the pod and watch the basket only with peripheral vision. Don’t focus too much on the velocity vector or the horizon, as you may lose concentration. Remind that, at the moment of the connection, the basket is within 0 and 5 horizontal levels. The center is behind the right support of the HUD.

4 - Maintaining the Connection

Focus on the chevron only. Let the F-18 move forward; you have a +1 knot speed differential. When you feel the basket getting too close to its pod, disengage ATC. Since you reduced throttle slightly in the previous step, your speed decreases. Engage ATC again after losing 1 knot.

And there you have it; I’m certainly not an ace, but now I can do it!

I did it in a similar way. It helped a lot to not have to focus on all axises at once and i am now able to do it multiple times.
Off course there is still some practice to it, but it definetly helped my brain to focus only on one thing (speed, roll or pitch).
I have also un-checked the wake turbulences until i get better at it.

 

My way is something like this:

1) Contact tanker and approach it. Use Autopilot BALT and just get somewhere close and behind it in a smooth way. Use throttle, airbrake and roll.

2) Take your time to find the tankers speed and match it with -1 kts. Activate ATC. Until now you are fairly lined up behind the tanker and have the speed to stay behind it.

3) "ready pre contact". Wait for the drogue and extend your probe.

4) get into a better position - horizontal only. Use roll to get straight in line with the drogue and take your time to stabilize there.

5) once stable, release the BALT and adjust your position - vertical only. Activate BALT again, when i a good position.

6) deactivate ATC and add thrust to close up to the drogue. Close up slowly with just +1-2 kts.

 

This should help to get as close and stable as possible to the basket. Fine tune by releasing and activating ATC and Autopilot BALT. Just work on one axis.

 

[Blackhawk163]

On 11/15/2024 at 6:30 PM, MAXsenna said:

That is true. But you'll loose a button. If you don't want to lose a button, map the radio PTTs to your HOTAS, then configure a hat, (any), to browse the menu. I never remember where it is. GUI layer? What's neat about that, is that you can for instance use your trim hat, and and it will switch to browsing mode when the radio menu is open, and revert to trimming when the radio menu is closed. Sort of LIKE how the GUI for George and Petrovich works.

Agree. 

In control options (where you choose the aircraft) find the command menu. Bind "Command Menu Next Item", "Command Menu Previous Item" and "Command Menu Select Item".

[Blackhawk163]

On 11/2/2024 at 7:21 AM, wywsy22 said:

Hi, i playing the Operation Alliance_Mission 6: Operation Incirlik but i keep blow away by the tanker.

I have very interest play all thing in DCS but never for air refueling, i always skip and exclude any air fueling task after few months try in the beginning i play DCS, this is too ridiculous & impossible to do it. Air fueling is the most upset and annoying for me.

but i like this campaign and as the last mission i want try to complete it.  

i try turn off the wake turbulence, use simple game mode, off g effect etc, it still nothing change.

i try with update to latest version and now even the external light can not on.

did i miss or setting something wrong? can help  

 

 

OP I was just like you for a while. Being a real-life rotor head, I couldn't care less about refueling actions, I used to be able to do it in Fbird 4.0 when it first came out, but then took a hiatus shortly after release (I miss that manual  )and when I came to DCS in the middle of this year, I was like "I got this." except nope, I didn't. I tried and I tried, bouncing around like a pinball. Death grip on controls and holding my breath (making much worse) So like you, I would skip this in missions that allowed you to.

Then I played Baltic Dragon's A10 training campaign. I was getting really good at just everything and then came that dreaded mission where luckily you could skip the AAR and so I did. I completed the campaign but felt a bit hollow, I never completed the AAR portion but still got a pass. On to the basic qualifications campaign, first mission? Practice AAR in daylight. "Fudge" I thought, there's no skipping this. So, I tried, paused, adjusted controls, rinse repeat, learned my throttle response time. Split the throttle at the IAS point where you are at the same speed as the tanker, and then massaging the throttle, kept coming close, and then contact! for like a second  I just kept repeating it (in this mission you have a mandatory 10 second contact time) until I completed it. Every day on every session, I would repeat this mission, until I could connect consistently, some sessions I would complete with no problems, others, multiple attempts. But once you get it you more or less start to develop that muscle memory. One day I said the heck with it and retried the f16. "Contact, you're taking fuel," staying with it until complete. I literally yelled out in joy, pointed to the ceiling with a big grin, and crashed into the tanker right after   I reloaded, suspecting a fluke, but nope, although it required two tries at it. Didn't matter. Messed around a bit and then tried the f14, best I could do was stab at it. Then I tried the f15e and the F4, success! Went and tried the f18, and like the f14, I couldn't get it. Stupid baskets purposefully flying away from me! 

So, I stayed with the Airforce for a while constantly playing AAR at least 4 times a session, twice before playing anything else, and then at the end of it.

 

Two days ago, I retried the f18. Bruh, it went so smooth. I think at that point I was on auto pilot (figuratively of course!), I learned the "carat trick." Now, every day I successfully refuel with all my modules save for the f-14, I'm just not good with its laggy engine response, but every day I try. I AAR at least 4 times with all my jets.

TLDR:

Here's what I did:

First calibrate and fine tune your curves, make the controls yours. Learn all the quirks

Learn the throttle response times

declutter your hud when possible

Relax and breathe

Practice and get good. There's no way around this. Again, I was just like you and never thought I'd truly get the hang of it. 

 

Edit after I had written the above, as soon as I came back from work, I loaded the training mission for the f14 and while it took 15 stabs at it, I refueled to 19000 lbs. So, you can definitely do this OP!

Edited December 20, 2024 by Blackhawk163

[SharpeXB]

Although mapping radio commands is a great idea, if you find it difficult to click “Ready Pre-Contact” you aren’t actually ready

You should be stable enough behind the tanker at this point that you could let go of the stick and use your keyboard. 

[Blackhawk163]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Although mapping radio commands is a great idea, if you find it difficult to click “Ready Pre-Contact” you aren’t actually ready

You should be stable enough behind the tanker at this point that you could let go of the stick and use your keyboard. 

But why would you even need to? IRL you are PTT anyway, this is barely any different. This is also a godsend in VR, especially when the pass through is horrendous like the Pimax CL. 

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, Blackhawk163 said:

But why would you even need to? IRL you are PTT anyway, this is barely any different. This is also a godsend in VR, especially when the pass through is horrendous like the Pimax CL. 

Oh I get it. Just saying if you’re actually ready and stable behind the tanker using your keyboard or whatever isn’t difficult (on a monitor)
Agree having a button assigned is of course better. That’s a relatively recent improvement.