F-14 Carrier Ops Campaign on Frozen Fjords in Kola

[Horns]

Just wondering if anyone has heard of anything suggesting any of our third party campaign creators plan to make a Tomcat campaign on the Frozen Fjords of the Kola map? I don't know anything at all of the geography but having read a (very) little about training being done for those kinds of ops during the cold war, it seems like the premier carrier-borne cold-war fighter is a perfect fit.

[JupiterJoe]

I'm for any new F-14 Campaign.  

[Gibo]

me too

[MAXsenna]

19 hours ago, Horns said:

on the Frozen Fjords of the Kola map?

Well, the fjords are probably too narrow for any carrier to want to enter them. Just ask the Tirpiz.

Carriers in the Oslo Fjord are just for show.  

I'm sure there will be Tomcat campaigns coming for Kola.

Whether the fjords are frozen or not depends on the salt level and temperature. And one is In, not ON one.  

Edited November 21, 2024 by MAXsenna

[Horns]

1 hour ago, MAXsenna said:

Well, the fjords are probably too narrow for any carrier to want to enter them. Just ask the Tirpiz.

Carriers in the Oslo Fjord are just for show.  

I'm sure there will be Tomcat campaigns coming for Kola.

Whether the fjords are frozen or not depends on the salt level and temperature. And one is In, not ON one.  

I’d thought the same thing about the fjords being awfully small for a carrier, but apparently it was something they trained - I’ll try to find the article I read to quote the source, and if I find I misunderstood in the course of that I’ll post that too. Thanks for the correction of ‘in’ rather than ’on’ - I was thinking of fjords as closer to rivers than seas Where I live we talk about being ‘on’ the major river, but then there is zero chance of any body of water freezing naturally here so this really is an exercise in imagination for me 

[Horns]

2 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Well, the fjords are probably too narrow for any carrier to want to enter them. Just ask the Tirpiz.

Carriers in the Oslo Fjord are just for show.  

I'm sure there will be Tomcat campaigns coming for Kola.

Whether the fjords are frozen or not depends on the salt level and temperature. And one is In, not ON one.  

Ok, so the article I read is here (key.aero subscription required I’m afraid): https://www.key.aero/article/was-us-navys-latest-aircraft-carrier-trying-out-cold-war-tactics

The reference to this being trained on (j/k) in the Cold War was taken from a book called “Oceans Ventured - Winning the Cold War at Sea” by John Lehman.

Quoted from the article: “he details how in Exercise Ocean Safari ’85 a new tactic for carrier operations was tried out. This major training event involved the USS Nassau with US Marine Corps AV-8A Harriers, HMS Illustrious and three US Navy carriers in the form of the USS Dwight D Eisenhower (CVN 69), USS Saratoga (CV 60) and USS America (CV 66). The focus of the exercise was the defence of Norway, which included testing the new tactic of an aircraft carrier using the country’s fjords as a protected environment from which to operate its air wing. The ingenious tactic involved using the topography of Vestfjord to hide the carrier from radar. Lehman explains: “The fjord was 70 miles long, very deep, with vertical mountains up to 3,000ft along both shores. The operational concept involved dashing from the North Atlantic at flank speed using full cover and deception until well into the fjord after an attack sub had fully cleared it of any Soviet subs. Captor mines would then seal off the fjord and the carrier would begin strike operations shielded from detection or attack by staying in the radar shadow of the high mountains“

[MAXsenna]

Ok, so the article I read is here (key.aero subscription required I’m afraid): https://www.key.aero/article/was-us-navys-latest-aircraft-carrier-trying-out-cold-war-tactics
The reference to this being trained on (j/k) in the Cold War was taken from a book called “Oceans Ventured - Winning the Cold War at Sea” by John Lehman.
Quoted from the article: “he details how in Exercise Ocean Safari ’85 a new tactic for carrier operations was tried out. This major training event involved the USS Nassau with US Marine Corps AV-8A Harriers, HMS Illustrious and three US Navy carriers in the form of the USS Dwight D Eisenhower (CVN 69), USS Saratoga (CV 60) and USS America (CV 66). The focus of the exercise was the defence of Norway, which included testing the new tactic of an aircraft carrier using the country’s fjords as a protected environment from which to operate its air wing. The ingenious tactic involved using the topography of Vestfjord to hide the carrier from radar. Lehman explains: “The fjord was 70 miles long, very deep, with vertical mountains up to 3,000ft along both shores. The operational concept involved dashing from the North Atlantic at flank speed using full cover and deception until well into the fjord after an attack sub had fully cleared it of any Soviet subs. Captor mines would then seal off the fjord and the carrier would begin strike operations shielded from detection or attack by staying in the radar shadow of the high mountains“

Interesting. Wouldn't have considered that.
Cheers!

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[Nealius]

I had heard similar from discussions on other forums. Carrier operating in the Vestfjord for geographic protection from seaborne threats and the RNoAF BARCAP'ing the east.

Edited November 22, 2024 by Nealius

[LanceCriminal86]

Teamwork and WEST WIND '88 was exactly this, Forrestal and Roosevelt operating with NATO in the Fjords. It's the cruise I did my Tomcat skins for the Forrestal release, and a set of '88 VF-41/84 should go perfectly as we have both carriers and now Kola. It would be a logical exercise to model, if not as a basis to make a "hot" scenario.

 

[Nealius]

The Vestfjord is big enough for one carrier to move fairly well, but would get very crowded both on the water and in the air with two. I wonder how they juggled them...alternating cycles maybe?

[RustBelt]

You guys know most carriers are a couple hundred miles of shore for combat ops right?
 

Cat, tank, work, tank, trap. 

[Nealius]

It depends. As clearly evidenced by known documentation about doctrine regarding the Kola region. Being hundreds of miles off shore instead of within the natural protections of the Vestfjord would leave them more vulnerable to a Soviet threat.

Edited November 27, 2024 by Nealius

[RustBelt]

Except it also leaves them trapped. I can’t imagine any captan or admiral willingly putting their carrier both in a one way in or out fjord, Or as evidenced in those pictures. Within visual line of sight of ground attack. 
 

I suspect this doctrine was for cool propaganda pictures. Not good carrier protection. 

[draconus]

11 hours ago, RustBelt said:

You guys know most carriers are a couple hundred miles of shore for combat ops right?

Not a given if it's a friendly country with another couple hundred miles of land apart from the nearest enemy. Since they did such exercises it means they at least considered it, obviously willingly. The main downside I see is the easier possibility of revealing location and follow on long range missile/drone attack. If the escort would do the same it'd be a serious downgrade of defense detection range and reaction times.

[RustBelt]

It really seems more like a “Lets see if we can” not “This is our legit A plan”

[Rhrich]

There’s some confusion here that needs to be cleared up:

»Fjord» in English is a clearly defined geological feature, looking like Sognefjorden. Its different in the Scandinavian languages where fjord can mean any sort of inlet, bay or fjord, or even a defined sea. 
 

The latter is the case of Vestfjorden. It’s not a fjord in the English sense at all, but a part of the Norwegian Sea. 
It is almost 120nm long and 40 nm wide. 
But, it is true that any fleet there would have been somewhat hidden by “Lofotveggen” (google it, it’s beautiful). You would also have several Norwegian AF bases in the vicinity. 
 

Attached is a picture looking across Vestfjorden:

https://no.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lofotveggen#/media/Fil%3ALofotveggen.jpg