About the wing snap issue, also new (to me) Flight Manual

[VZ_342]

This F-5E/F-4F flight manual is dated 1 Aug 1978, so it should be ok to link.

 

 

 

Under "Prohibited Maneuvers" it says "Entering full deflection (to spring stop)...abrupt aileron rolls at...greater than 5.0 g without pylon stores or 1.0 g with pylon stores."

Spring stop, iirc, is not the floor of the cockpit, it is when the stick is pushed to either side and the spring stop makes the pilot encounter more needed force to roll even faster. Most sim sticks don't replicate this, so it is very easy to exceed the "spring stop" deflection.

"Abrupt" doesn't mean instantaneous, it means sudden or more quickly than normal. How much is that? I don't know, but it sounds like "slow and smooth" in roll maneuvers is the way.

5.0 g is an important limit without stores. 1.0 g (one point zero) is even more important because it is with stores. I can confirm that with heavy stores the wings come off almost spontaneously with any roll/pitch combination.

 

 

Edited December 1, 2024 by VZ_342
pruf reed

[Bucic]

Quote

Most sim sticks don't replicate this, so it is very easy to exceed the "spring stop" deflection.

In DCS output is limited to spring stop. Passing the spring stop requires holding the [L] key. You can read more about it in my simpit thread. You can also find physical data on controls movement there (attached spreadsheet).

Thanks for bringing more attention to the subject.

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/318106-f-5e-simpit-cockpit-dimensions-and-flight-controls/

 

[VZ_342]

Cool, thank you! Still, "spring stop" (before one "goes beyond" via the L key) is the limit given at the end of the "abrupt deflection", which is a prohibited maneuver. 

 

Edited December 1, 2024 by VZ_342

[=475FG= Dawger]

I stopped flying the F-5 because this issue has not been acknowledged. 
 

Even if one accepted the wings snapping off before any other component of the aircraft at the first instance of exceedance as realistic, there is still the ability to generate 13g almost instantly.

This points to complete lack of modeling of the artificial feel system in the flight controls. 
 

To demonstrate just compare the F1 to the F-5 

Identical structural limits

Go fast, 550-600 knots. 
 

Rip the stick back. 
 

F1 will go through 60-80 degrees of pitch before the wings let loose

The F-5 wings will be gone with almost no pitch deflection.

Think about what that means. 
 

Couple that with misapplied roll limits

”Entering 360 degree full deflection abrupt aileron rolls” 
 

versus moving the stick slightly and losing your wings

When this feature was first introduced, I had to add deadband in roll because even a straight pull was inducing enough roll to crack the wings off. 
 

When I stopped flying it, the wings would most commonly come off when coming off a high speed guns pass because I roll about 5 degrees as I come off to avoid the vertical stab on the bandit. 
 

The other situation was fighting a Mig-29. They have the thrust to maintain a pretty high G turn and any roll whatsoever in the F-5 cracks the wings off. 
 

I will note that it really only is a problem when fighting actual human players. Against AI, the fight is so tame and predictable, it really isn’t an issue. 

[SparrowLT]

I was doing yesterday flights in the 4YA acrobatics server with the F-5.. had smoke gens in the tips... pass over airfield, smoke and and begin at arround 450-500K a spiral barell roll at barelly 3Gs.. wings snaped.

 

Respawn .. do same.. no snap..

 

do a climb at 500K and 4Gs.. wings snap ..

 

 

ITs completelly broken and its a shame they ask money for this...

Edited December 4, 2024 by SparrowLT

[Bucic]

9 minutes ago, SparrowLT said:

I was doing yesterday flights in the 4YA acrobatics server with the F-5.. had smoke gens in the tips... pass over airfield, smoke and and begin at arround 450-500K a spiral barell roll at barelly 3Gs.. wings snaped.

 

Respawn .. do same.. no snap..

 

do a climb at 500K and 4Gs.. wings snap ..

 

 

ITs completelly broken and its a shame they ask money for this...

Let's get to it then

 

Quote

Fixed. Wingtip launcher rails are fragile when exposed to rapid G-onset.
Fixed. F-5E Air-to-Air Missile Employment in MSL mode training mission.
Fixed. Rapid aft control input caution

Quote

 

 

[MAXsenna]

Flew around today, rolled here and there not thinking about it. No snapping. I do use an old MS FFB2 stick with a short extension. I have selected the FFB option in the Special Settings for the F-5E. Those of you that experience the wing snap. Are you also using FFB? I wonder if there's a major difference if you do?  

Just now, MAXsenna said:

Flew around today, rolled here and there not thinking about it. No snapping. I do use an old MS FFB2 stick with a short extension. I have selected the FFB option in the Special Settings for the F-5E. Those of you that experience the wing snap. Are you also using FFB? I wonder if there's a major difference if you don't?  

 

[VZ_342]

Don't have an FFB, it seems like most snaps happen with relatively heavy loads.

2x AIM-9's + 2x Mk82 usually don't snap unless I do some really crazy maneuvers. Loaded with 2x Mk83s and a Mk84 on centerline and I'm flying on eggshells...

[Hobel]

vor 17 Stunden schrieb Bucic:

Fixed. Rapid aft control input caution

is this activated? i only hear a sound after the wingrip

[=475FG= Dawger]

1 hour ago, Hobel said:

is this activated? i only hear a sound after the wingrip

I think the wings coming off is the caution. 

[Bucic]

2 hours ago, Hobel said:

is this activated? i only hear a sound after the wingrip

Same here - i can hear nothing well in advance enough to save me from catastrophic damage. That said I haven't lost my wings even once while flying using an xbox game controller.

[Bucic]

Guys, could you check with "Hear like in helmet" OFF?

This guy flies with the option OFF. I always have it ON. Now, I've never heard roll effect to produce such a distinct audio but I don't know whether it's because I'm using Hear like in helmet or is it a new effect, related to the supposed hard pitch command.

https://youtu.be/ZD57BGIuOUM?t=106

EDIT:

Never mind. He's using a sound mod.

Edited December 5, 2024 by Bucic

[Kirk66]

This is all so sad because of the fundamental misunderstanding of what an over-G will do to an airplane, and what the flight manual limits mean. Jets rarely break apart catastrophically due to a pilot induced over-G. Ultimate G-limits are a lot higher than normal limits. But you can often "bend" a jet by repeated over-Gs - especially assymetrical (rolling) Gs. And once the jet has been over-G'd, it is grounded until fully inspected, and repaired if necessary. So from an operational aspect, over-Gs are bad for keeping your fleet flying.

But if jets just broke apart everytime Lt Mongo honks on the stick, you would run out of jets (and Lts) pretty quickly!

This, and the ridiculous recip engine time bombs (and paper ailerons on the P-51) are my biggest complaint about DCS as a sim. 

But, still better than anything else out there right now.

Vulture

[_JMax]

So the conclusion on the wings coming off in the F5 update?? Not as quick to come off as before??

[=475FG= Dawger]

2 hours ago, _JMax said:

So the conclusion on the wings coming off in the F5 update?? Not as quick to come off as before??

My 32 seconds of testing indicate a straight pull takes a bit of effort to snap the wings off but the wings will depart with far less than spring stop roll input. 
 

Better but still stupid.

Less stupid. 
 

Maybe in three more years ED will announce another remaster and charge $15 for liveries and properly implemented roll limits. 

[MAXsenna]

So the conclusion on the wings coming off in the F5 update?? Not as quick to come off as before??

They come off alright. Even with FFB not passed the spring stops.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[_JMax]

I am dissapointed.I thought that the fidelity quality was not bad,even though we all would like it improved. But having the quick to depart wings dampened down more than I am hearing, would have been welcomed.And I also think F5 fans like myself would instantly buy the remaster if it also had the extra two missile capability. I was hoping that the $10. charge would be for more comprehensive improvements,and that its success would inspire other modules to be reworked,even by 3rd party developers. MiG 21 would be an obvious one.

[SparrowLT]

Just had the wings snap in the FC F-5E in a mild less than 4G turn.. the only thing out of ordinary was than i had 1 sidewinder fired before (so only 1 AIM9P) and 1 7rocket launcher in each wing.. nothing else..

 

encountered a MIG-21 in multiplayer.. merged and began to turn not particulary hard as the other guy didnt seem to spot me (he continued straight out of AB) and as soon as i began to turn one of the wings just snapped.

 

so there has not been any fix at all aparently.

[Cab]

1 hour ago, SparrowLT said:

...so there has not been any fix at all aparently.

Well, it is better than it was but still needs more work. The good news is ED has acknowledged that.

[Bucic]

7 hours ago, SparrowLT said:

Just had the wings snap in the FC F-5E in a mild less than 4G turn.. the only thing out of ordinary was than i had 1 sidewinder fired before (so only 1 AIM9P) and 1 7rocket launcher in each wing.. nothing else..

 

encountered a MIG-21 in multiplayer.. merged and began to turn not particulary hard as the other guy didnt seem to spot me (he continued straight out of AB) and as soon as i began to turn one of the wings just snapped.

 

so there has not been any fix at all aparently.

Got a track?

[SparrowLT]

5 hours ago, Bucic said:

Got a track?

I think i do but it was Hearblur (formerly Engima's ) cold war server so the track is like 190mb ...

 

Tacview has nothing as that server aparently for security reasons doesnt forward anything to tacview (at least in the tv files i have)

[Bucic]

7 minutes ago, SparrowLT said:

I think i do but it was Hearblur (formerly Engima's ) cold war server so the track is like 190mb ...

 

Tacview has nothing as that server aparently for security reasons doesnt forward anything to tacview (at least in the tv files i have)

I see. You could always try to re-create the event in SP.

 

[SparrowLT]

On 12/30/2024 at 3:07 PM, Bucic said:

I see. You could always try to re-create the event in SP.

 

I just was doing an offline mission..its simple.. drop LG bombs on a terrorist camp while a predator lases them.. so first pass.. i get clear hot from JTAC ... dive on target and release a GBU12 out of 4 (so asymetrical resultant loads) i begin to pull up and also doing lateral movement to avoid any AAA fire i expect..and after just 2 or 3 seconds of turn my wing snaps and i lose control and crash...

no hits from ground AAA ... i checked tacview and i was pulling 7.6G when it snaped..

 

track uploaded

F-5E wings break 2025.trk

Edited January 2 by SparrowLT

[Bucic]

42 minutes ago, SparrowLT said:

I just was doing an offline mission..its simple.. drop LG bombs on a terrorist camp while a predator lases them.. so first pass.. i get clear hot from JTAC ... dive on target and release a GBU12 out of 4 (so asymetrical resultant loads) i begin to pull up and also doing lateral movement to avoid any AAA fire i expect..and after just 2 or 3 seconds of turn my wing snaps and i lose control and crash...

no hits from ground AAA ... i checked tacview and i was pulling 7.6G when it snaped..

 

track uploaded

F-5E wings break 2025.trk 6.19 MB · 0 downloads

All three are true V

- I believe you

- descriptions are not enough

- modless tracks are needed

[SparrowLT]

What do you mean modless track? there is no mod in that mission as far as im aware...

 

I can also upload the tacview file

Tacview-20250102-174935-DCS-AG.zip.acmi