Skid on shore landing

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

During shore landing, especially when it is raining, when I apply brakes, the plane goes round and round, even I have set "Anti-skid" to both. Any tips for me, please?

[Wingmate]

Use brakes after you slow down, use the spoiler brake and back stick to decelerate a lot first.

[Jetguy06]

28 minutes ago, Wingmate said:

Use brakes after you slow down, use the spoiler brake and back stick to decelerate a lot first.

This.

Even landing on the super-short (~8,000ft) runway at Batumi, I can get to taxi speed without wheel brakes at all, every time.

Assuming you're landing normally (airfield landing, at or below max landing weight, anti skid set to both, speed brake fully deployed, DLC deployed, full flaps, on-speed), once you touch down go full aft stick (GENTLY... too quickly and you'll pull the nose gear back off the runway!!) and use left/right stick, not the rudders, to maintain centerline. Depending on the airfield and runway length, you may not need to use wheel brakes at all until you're clear of the active and you're stopping for EOR/Dearming. Hope this helps!!

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

Thanks guys. F-14 is such a unique plane. Lovely!

[draconus]

On 12/8/2024 at 1:53 AM, VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants said:

During shore landing, especially when it is raining, when I apply brakes, the plane goes round and round, even I have set "Anti-skid" to both.

Sounds like an active parking brake would do that to you but also wheel brakes applied not equally.

Btw, you made that one up ("especially when it is raining") in your mind as DCS does not have surface friction changes depending on weather implemented yet, unfortunately.

On 12/8/2024 at 4:50 AM, Jetguy06 said:

use left/right stick, not the rudders, to maintain centerline

I know it works (for high speeds) and @IronMike advertised this method but @Victory205 already debunked this myth and said pilots actually used the rudders.

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

2 hours ago, draconus said:

Sounds like an active parking brake would do that to you but also wheel brakes applied not equally.

Btw, you made that one up ("especially when it is raining") in your mind as DCS does not have surface friction changes depending on weather implemented yet, unfortunately.

Looks like the latter, I would be too nervous to pull the "hand brake" in VR.

Thanks for clarification, I never inteded DCS to be GPL or iRacing of any sort.

[Rhrich]

60s ABS wasn’t what it is today. 
its hard without feeling the plane, but you had to be judicious when applying brakes. You couldn’t just assume you could leave everything to the system and stand on the brakes. In fact, you would never get the full brake action as you will today.  
That’s one of the reasons why some used drag chutes. (Though, they still have their uses even today). 
 

Anyway, take it easy, and you should be alright. 
 

some tips:

keep proper AOA and decent rate . You dissipate a lot of energy when you slam into the ground in proper navy fashion. 
 

Spoilers and aft stick to slow you down. 
 

I once read that it might help to tune the axis on my rudder pedals (I’ve got some cheap ones, and it did help me) to make it less responsive when you’re doing small corrections to stay on centreline. 
 

Edited December 9, 2024 by Rhrich

[Jetguy06]

15 hours ago, draconus said:

I know it works (for high speeds) and @IronMike advertised this method but @Victory205 already debunked this myth and said pilots actually used the rudders.

Good to know. I'll give it a shot next time I fly the 'Cat.

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

I thought DLC and spoilers were auto…

[draconus]

3 minutes ago, VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants said:

I thought DLC and spoilers were auto…

No, it depends on the switches (and systems working) set.

Spoilers are moving plates on top aft of the wings: either for reducing the lift (in DLC), helping with roll or creating a drag to help with reducing speed on the ground. DLC is a system that uses inner parts of the spoilers for the pilot to directly control the lift (hence the name) during landings without the power or attitude changes.

https://heatblur.se/F-14Manual/general.html#spoilers

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

This also happens with F/A-18E. I think I need some more practice.

[draconus]

1 hour ago, VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants said:

This also happens with F/A-18E. I think I need some more practice.

Make sure your controls are set up properly. Rudder centered, brake pedals axis not inverted...

[Nightdare]

I just tried the 'slight backstick' and I already noticed a lesser use of runway real estate for stopping

[RustBelt]

On 12/10/2024 at 4:58 PM, VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants said:

This also happens with F/A-18E. I think I need some more practice.

You mean the MOD? Try removing the mod and see what the F-14 does then.

[FR4GGL3]

On 12/10/2024 at 10:58 PM, VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants said:

This also happens with F/A-18E. I think I need some more practice.

Is there any chance that you use the Wheelbrake both as a Button press rather then an Axis? Personally I find the brakes are only usefull as an Axis where you can use them gently and not in a digital fashion like full brakes or no brakes at all.

And yes, what was written multiple times here: be on speed and on the right sink rate, then you arent't that fast by the touchdown, have the antiskid on both, when you touched the ground, pull the stick gently aft and slow down by holding as much sorface into the air as possible. I use the brakes only at the time, when it is safe to enable the nose wheel steering. And when I use them, I use them gently.

[WarthogOsl]

4 hours ago, FR4GGL3 said:

Is there any chance that you use the Wheelbrake both as a Button press rather then an Axis? Personally I find the brakes are only usefull as an Axis where you can use them gently and not in a digital fashion like full brakes or no brakes at all.

You can use them as a button, but you need to tap it quickly, not hold it.  It's not ideal, but it can be made to work.

[draconus]

Just now, WarthogOsl said:

You can use them as a button, but you need to tap it quickly, not hold it.  It's not ideal, but it can be made to work.

Before I got rudder pedals I used the button for full both wheels braking and it was never an issue in the Tomcat.

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

6 hours ago, FR4GGL3 said:

Is there any chance that you use the Wheelbrake both as a Button press rather then an Axis?

Nope. I always map both wheel brakes to corresponding pedals. (Where are my manners?) Thank you and I will use the tips to improve my landing.

Edited December 18, 2024 by VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants

[FR4GGL3]

10 hours ago, WarthogOsl said:

You can use them as a button, but you need to tap it quickly, not hold it.  It's not ideal, but it can be made to work.

Well, then I am simply too stupid. I never could do it well with the button logic.

[Clunk1001]

I'm just going to add to this, as the original poster has identified something which is unrealistic, and I'd also class as a bug  (but maybe more DCS than Heatblur).

Some replies on here suggest it's either 'normal' or 'something he is doing wrong'.  And neither is the case here.  So my post is really to tell OP it's not his fault.

 

DCS F14 landing on a dry runway, when under 50kts, applying toe brakes, nosewheel steering not engaged,  can send the F14 into a pirouette, like applying the handbrake in a car on an icy road.  Any asymmetry (eg a tiny application of rudder) can spin the aircraft.   I've often finished my roll out with a 180 spin, from traveling under 50 knots, to end up facing the wrong way back up the runway.  All sense of "tire friction" is lost, and any sense of 'heavy aircraft' momentum is lost.  The aircraft becomes 'light as a feather' and 'aquaplanes' through 180 degrees like a plastic toy in the wind.  

Ive been flying aircraft for 30 years (civilian)...and fortunately this only happens to me in the F14 in DCS     So far at least.   

Aircraft just don't do this. 

I have identified that my brake axis is too sensitive, and it's applying near-instantaneous 100% braking,  so this is one issue.   But applying max breaking in an aircraft will still not have this type of effect.  Yes, we pilots are careful with breaking, but this is primarily to prevent overheating the breaks,  brake fires,  and blowing tires  (aircraft tires have plugs which melt at a specific temperature to deflate the tire in the event of over-heat).  This is what we're avoiding...as well as a face full of instrument panel.   It is not because tapping the brakes can turn several tons of travelling heavy metal into a lightweight slidey spinning top.

I suspect this comes down to the attempted simulation of near-instantaneous 0 to 100% break application,  which is unrealistic in itself,   and not correctly simulating the friction of tires on  asphalt held down by several tons of aircraft.

 

Laws of physics aside, I know that this behavior is not realistic, because if the cool 180 degree handbrake turn at the end of the runway was physically/aerodynamically possible, Maverick would have done it.....  (twice)!   

Edited May 28 by Clunk1001

[draconus]

5 hours ago, Clunk1001 said:

Aircraft just don't do this.

Until HB and their SMEs confirm your revelations it's your technique that's wrong.

[ShuRugal]

7 hours ago, Clunk1001 said:

I'm just going to add to this, as the original poster has identified something which is unrealistic, and I'd also class as a bug  (but maybe more DCS than Heatblur).

Some replies on here suggest it's either 'normal' or 'something he is doing wrong'.  And neither is the case here.  So my post is really to tell OP it's not his fault.

 

DCS F14 landing on a dry runway, when under 50kts, applying toe brakes, nosewheel steering not engaged,  can send the F14 into a pirouette, like applying the handbrake in a car on an icy road.  Any asymmetry (eg a tiny application of rudder) can spin the aircraft.   I've often finished my roll out with a 180 spin, from traveling under 50 knots, to end up facing the wrong way back up the runway.  All sense of "tire friction" is lost, and any sense of 'heavy aircraft' momentum is lost.  The aircraft becomes 'light as a feather' and 'aquaplanes' through 180 degrees like a plastic toy in the wind.  

Ive been flying aircraft for 30 years (civilian)...and fortunately this only happens to me in the F14 in DCS     So far at least.   

Aircraft just don't do this. 

I have identified that my brake axis is too sensitive, and it's applying near-instantaneous 100% braking,  so this is one issue.   But applying max breaking in an aircraft will still not have this type of effect.  Yes, we pilots are careful with breaking, but this is primarily to prevent overheating the breaks,  brake fires,  and blowing tires  (aircraft tires have plugs which melt at a specific temperature to deflate the tire in the event of over-heat).  This is what we're avoiding...as well as a face full of instrument panel.   It is not because tapping the brakes can turn several tons of travelling heavy metal into a lightweight slidey spinning top.

I suspect this comes down to the attempted simulation of near-instantaneous 0 to 100% break application,  which is unrealistic in itself,   and not correctly simulating the friction of tires on  asphalt held down by several tons of aircraft.

 

Laws of physics aside, I know that this behavior is not realistic, because if the cool 180 degree handbrake turn at the end of the runway was physically/aerodynamically possible, Maverick would have done it.....  (twice)!   

Military aircraft definitely DO do this sort of thing.  the F-14 weighs 3/4 as much as a Boeing 737-100, but has only about 1/4 the tire contact area, and a 15% narrower width between the main landing gear, and 30% less distance between the nose and main gear.  the F-14 will absolutely have far less ground stability than a civil aircraft of similar weight would be expected to have.

Fighters are a tradeoff between usability and performance, and they tend to favor performance over ease-of-use, especially cold-war era designs.  Tires are bulky and heavy, which means that traction on the ground costs performance in the air.

 

On 12/7/2024 at 7:53 PM, VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants said:

During shore landing, especially when it is raining, when I apply brakes, the plane goes round and round, even I have set "Anti-skid" to both. Any tips for me, please?

What is your typical airspeed on landing?  both your speed as you pass over the runway threshold, and your speed at touchdown?  I have noticed that it is common for DCS players to carry far too much airspeed during landing, and "it skids all over the place" is a common symptom of touching down with too much speed.

[Clunk1001]

8 hours ago, draconus said:

Until HB and their SMEs confirm your revelations it's your technique that's wrong.

This was an emergency landing following a hydraulic failure, I believe.

that’s a bit like you logging a bug that causes the plane to blow up randomly while taxing….And then me posting a video of a plane blowing up while taxiing, and stating that it’s normal for planes to do this, here’s a video, and not a bug.

I’ve 30 years of flying under my belt, I don’t need ED to tell me anything about technique, thanks

Edited May 28 by Clunk1001

[Clunk1001]

6 hours ago, ShuRugal said:

Military aircraft definitely DO do this sort of thing.  the F-14 weighs 3/4 as much as a Boeing 737-100, but has only about 1/4 the tire contact area, and a 15% narrower width between the main landing gear, and 30% less distance between the nose and main gear.  the F-14 will absolutely have far less ground stability than a civil aircraft of similar weight would be expected to have.

Fighters are a tradeoff between usability and performance, and they tend to favor performance over ease-of-use, especially cold-war era designs.  Tires are bulky and heavy, which means that traction on the ground costs performance in the air.

 

What is your typical airspeed on landing?  both your speed as you pass over the runway threshold, and your speed at touchdown?  I have noticed that it is common for DCS players to carry far too much airspeed during landing, and "it skids all over the place" is a common symptom of touching down with too much speed.

No.   Following a normal landing, traveling under 50kt, aircraft do not perform a full 180 spin with minimum rudder input.  No aircraft would,  unless something else has gone very wrong.  As mentioned, this may be a 100% brake application issue.   But no aircraft, military or otherwise would be certified, if it exhibited ground characteristics like this.    I'll retest adjusting my brake axis, see if that makes a difference....

Edited May 28 by Clunk1001

[RustBelt]

This is a sim engine problem with tire to ground contact. It is very strong in the Tomcat. Any reverted rubber hydroplaning is a one way variable until a full stop. It behaves better with Spoiler/Antiskid - BOTH and turning the NWS on under 100 Kts. 
 

The workaround is to try real hard to be careful on the brakes until you come to a stop. The sim can’t reestablish traction on the move very well.
 

Ground Dynamics are always a distant tertiary in flight sims. You should have seen what a mess it was when the Carriers were new and the sim couldn’t comprehend a “ground” that moved.