user resolved Apache rolls aggresive to the left when reducing collective

[dr_hippo]

Hi All,

When I fly the apache and I reduce the collective ( also when reducing collective as little as posible ) the apache rolls aggresive to the left.

I have no idea where it comes from?

Thanx for the advise.

 

 

 

 

[razo+r]

Have you checked your controls?

Do you have a track?

[Floyd1212]

Yeah, sounds like a rogue binding issue. What are you using for your collective axis?

[dr_hippo]

Hi Floyd1212

 

What do you mean by rogue binding.

I have a vkb stecs controller and I use the full scale without any curve.

Best regards 

[razo+r]

There could be that for some reason you or DCS has bound a button or an axis to the roll or something else and thus interfering with your controls.

Again, check your controls.

[Floyd1212]

My guess was that you were using a HOTAS with a split throttle, and half the throttle is bound as your "collective" axis, and the other half was bound to "cyclic roll" axis.  But maybe not.

If you bring up the Controls Indicator, are you seeing movement of the cyclic roll axis while you are adjusting the collective?

[dr_hippo]

HI All,

I did some further investigation because the issue is never there at the beginning of a mission. This is what I found out. I have opened the controls indicator and in the beginning of the mission I noticed no strange behavior, not in reaction of the Apache and not in the control indicator.

From then on the Roll is completely following the collective movement. I can still roll with my Joystick aswell. I re-armed at the base and the problem was still there. I restarted the mission. Everything was normal again. After firing 1 Hellfire the problem is still there. I did not see anything special in the bindings from the roll or the cyclic.

Very strange

 

 

 

 

[MAXsenna]

19 minutes ago, dr_hippo said:

Very strange

Indeed!

11 hours ago, dr_hippo said:

What do you mean by rogue binding.

Read through the posts. You haven't confirmed you don't have a conflicting binding issue. Open the Controls Settings, Axis settings, move the your cyclic, and check if there are any other axis bound on the at row. It can be anything, like a mini-stick. Depending on how many peripherals you have connected, you might need to scroll right to see them all.

Cheers! 

[dr_hippo]

I have checked the bindings. I do not see any conflicts. Also when the issue arrived, I pushed escape and visited the control page. There the behavior from the collective and roll is normal. This means that when I move the collective the Roll does not move. When I leave the controls page and go back in the game the issue is still there. The roll is following the collective.

??????

[razo+r]

Can you post a screenshot of the axis control category?

[dr_hippo]

Here are the screenshots.

The name of the screenshot should clarify the screenshot 

Sorru,

1) bindings

2) Collective movement after hellfire's are used without touching the joystick ( means that the roll should stay in the center ) which is not the case

3) Collective movement at start of the mission without touching the joystick ( means that the roll should stay in the center ) which is the case

[MAXsenna]

Can you post a quick track, or is that futile because the issue takes its time to surface?
You don't use any hardware specific software, or by chance have enabled some modifiers? You can use modifiers with axis, that's why I'm asking.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[admiki]

27 minutes ago, dr_hippo said:

Here are the screenshots.

The name of the screenshot should clarify the screenshot 

Sorru,

1) bindings

2) Collective movement after hellfire's are used without touching the joystick ( means that the roll should stay in the center ) which is not the case

3) Collective movement at start of the mission without touching the joystick ( means that the roll should stay in the center ) which is the case

I notice that your collective is not set as slider, did you check for whole travel of your collective axis?

Do you have any other helicopter and does this happen with those?

[dr_hippo]

I don not Know what you mean by " collective is not set as slider " ?

Anyway the collective does match for the whole travel.

I will do a test later this day with the KA50.

The strange thing is that it behaving normal until I fired some hellfire.

So I think there is something corrupt. Is there a way to reset all the bindings and start over?

[[DE] T-Bone]

42 minutes ago, dr_hippo said:

I don not Know what you mean by " collective is not set as slider " ?

Anyway the collective does match for the whole travel.

I will do a test later this day with the KA50.

The strange thing is that it behaving normal until I fired some hellfire.

So I think there is something corrupt. Is there a way to reset all the bindings and start over?

You can try deleting the controls.lua and reassigning it.

Off the top of my head it should be in a folder like this: c/users/name/saved games/DCS openbeta/input/...

[Floyd1212]

Are you switching to the front seat at all while playing, or getting the aircraft started up?  It might be worth checking the binds for CPG in case there is a double-bind there.

Do you have any other controllers that might wake-up later and be “seen” by DCS, like an Xbox controller?

[Lord Vader]

Hello @dr_hippo

Just from your description and your images, we can't come to a conclusion. This looks like an issue with your controls but that's just speculation as we can't see what's happening.

Make sure to follow the suggestions already given, such as deleting the axis assignments completely and start over, just in case one of those axis is wrong or switched.

If none of that works, try to start over by moving your assignment .lua file to another location to reset controls (you can move it back if you see no difference).

Another suggestion is to look into your HOTAS/HOCAS axis calibration just in case you have a hardware issue. Or make sure you don't have another idle controller connected to your PC interfering with these axis.

Finally, it would be interesting to share a trackfile of this event and even a video capture as well, if you can.

Be aware that increasing or reducing collective will always introduce side-effects to the aircraft's attitude, including yaw that you need compensate with pedal input. The same will happen with firing Hellfire missiles or the cannon, that will also introduce some movement or rotation, especially to a hovering aircraft. If this is what you're experiencing, this is correct as is, demanding some level of coordination with your controls.

[dr_hippo]

@Floyd1212

Yes I do switch to the front seat and back. I will do a test later this day while staying in the back seat and fire some hellfires from the Pilot seat and see if the problem still occurs. I do not have any other controllers attached to my PC

@Lord Vader

I will attach a track file later. I do understand that reducing are increasing the collective will introduce side-effects. I want to make the statement again that the issue does not appear before I use the hellfire. That means that I can use my collective and I experience the side-effects as expected. Which means also that I do not see any roll input change in the controls-indicator! The move in the Roll indicator and the aggressive Roll that cones with it are only coming after hellfire`s are used. Decreasing collective results in move to left. Increasing collective results in roll to rights. From the controls input screen it is clear that from then on the Roll input follows the collective.

 

[admiki]

2 hours ago, dr_hippo said:

I don not Know what you mean by " collective is not set as slider " ?

Anyway the collective does match for the whole travel.

I will do a test later this day with the KA50.

The strange thing is that it behaving normal until I fired some hellfire.

So I think there is something corrupt. Is there a way to reset all the bindings and start over?

You can see in photo of your bindings that your collective axis is starting from the middle. It means that dcs will see only half of  your physical axis as an input.

Anyway, that's not really important.

What you can do is to perform a slow repair and see if that fixes things. If it does, great, you don't have to do bindings all over again, if it doesn't you can proceed with what was already suggested.  

[Vakarian]

34 minutes ago, admiki said:

You can see in photo of your bindings that your collective axis is starting from the middle. It means that dcs will see only half of  your physical axis as an input.

Are you sure? I'm 99.69% sure not true. I currently use Virpil Rotor collective and I've used both TM Warthog and TWCS throttles as a collective before, in all cases the input was normal axis, not a slider and it registered just fine in full physical range. There was no physical/virtual axes disconnect

[Floyd1212]

Yeah, I checked mine as well and I don't have mine set to a "slider".  I also run the Virpil collective.  Maybe this axis is setup differently on the back-end to always act as a slider?

However, that being said, @dr_hippo there still may be something fishy with your collective axis.  In one of the screenshots you are showing 80% torque with your controls indicator showing it is below halfway within it's range.  Though we all know that the torque output and collective position is not a 1:1 relationship, this seems a little unusual.

When you move your collective from 0 to 100%, does it move across the entire range of the axis outlined in yellow above?

Again, this may not be related to the rolling issue, but still something worth looking into.

Edited December 10, 2024 by Floyd1212

[admiki]

30 minutes ago, Vakarian said:

Are you sure? I'm 99.69% sure not true. I currently use Virpil Rotor collective and I've used both TM Warthog and TWCS throttles as a collective before, in all cases the input was normal axis, not a slider and it registered just fine in full physical range. There was no physical/virtual axes disconnect

You're correct.

[dr_hippo]

@Floyd1212

I have mapped my stects throttle to the full scale of the collective. In the Apache I reach the 100% torque around the 65% of the collective move.When I move it all the way to the end it is going 150% torqye or even more. Nevertheless when going over 100% torque I receive the message . Motor RPM too.....

I think we need to map the full scale?

[dr_hippo]

Ok, I did some extra test.

The trigger of the issue is not the Hellfire. The trigger of the issue is switching from Pilot to gunner and back. I have use the same button to switch from Pilot to gunner and from gunner to pilot. From the moment I am back in the pilot seat the issue is there. I have mapped the same button for it. I have removed this biding and I am using the default buttons 1 and 2 for it.

Nevertheless, the issue is still there. Just the conclusion what is triggering the issue is changed. I will make a track later this evening when I have more time.

[dr_hippo]

All,

First I would like to thank you for the help investigating my issue. In attachment the track file.

After going in the air I did a trim. Then I did not touch the joystick and I started to move my collective and you can see that there is no movement in the stick. So normal beheveour.

Then I went to a hover and moved to the front seat and launched 1 hellfire to kill a truck. Then I moved back to the pilot seat. I start flying again and trimmed the apache in a stable flight forward. From then I did not touch the joystick. From the moment I decrease the collective you can see that the roll movement is following without I touch the joystick. The result is a aggresive roll to the left which result in a crash most of the time.

Thanx

 

showcase roll issue.trk