The curious case of DCS lighting - and the need for helmet visors.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

Hello,

Before I start this post, let me be clear that I am well aware there have been several wish list threads about this topic already, and that there are several modules with this option present and working properly - luckily - such as the MiG-21, Mirage 2000, Mirage F1, AV-8B (broken but hopefully this can be fixed later as it used to work), F-15E, OH-58, ...
But this seems to be a VERY low priority item for ED and some 3rd parties (Heatblur have announced all of their modules will get it but that has been announced years ago already with nothing to show for it so far). For me personally (and I bet for some other users as well), this is in fact a CRITICAL item that determines me flying that particular module or not. Now before someone starts accusing me of being particularly dramatic, allow me to elaborate:

IRL I have very sensitive eyes. Indoors I need glasses with a special filter that automatically darkens based on ambient light, which gives the lenses a brownish tint. I don't particularly enjoy the world around me always having that brown tint, but it is what it is. You can compare this to photography with an improperly set white balance.
Outdoors during the day I wear sunglasses pretty much 100% of the time, even when it's overcast and/or raining. Even clouds can really hurt my eyes (it physically hurts but doesn't damage my eyes as far as I know).
So while other people's opinion on the need for a helmet visor in DCS visor can range from "it's a useless gimmick" to "it would be nice to have to combat sun glare when flying straight into the sun so we can read our HUDs", for me it is more than that: bad things happen if I fly a module without sun visor for longer than 5 minutes.

A few years ago, before ED overhauled the lighting engine, this wasn't much of a problem, since with low enough gamma setting in DCS (I flew with gamma at 1.6) I could fly just fine. But now with the revised lighting (which is obviously a huge improvement and much more true-to-life), lowering the gamma messes up all colours and the in-cockpit visibility.
I'm sure that people can remember a few years ago when ED started overhauling the lighting, people commented on being able to set correct lighting inside the cockpit OR for the outside world, but never both at the same time. Since then it was especially Heatblur that has been stating that they colour correct their modules for Gamma 2.2, since that is the "correct" setting in DCS if you want colours to display correctly (there have been lots of people complaining about cockpits being too dark (recently in the F-4), those were likely using too low gamma).

Now allow me to explain what happens if I fly any visor-less DCS module for longer than a few minutes in daylight conditions. After about 5-10 minutes, I start developing a headache. If I continue flying, that headache gets worse. After about an hour, nausea kicks in and that gets so bad I need to throw up (I mean really run to the bathroom and physically throw up).
I have been flying in VR exclusively in DCS for about 7 years now, and never had an issue with the motion sickness some people complain about, so my headaches and nausea are purely a result of the outside-of-the-cockpit world of DCS being too bright for my eyes to handle.

This results in me exclusively flying DCS modules with visors. Sure, I might take out others for a quick spin but only for a few minutes at a time unless I set the mission time-of-day at early morning or late evening (or night obviously).

So with this post I'd like to politely ask ED and 3rd parties to consider bumping up the priority for working visors in their modules. RL pilot helmets have it, for the much of the same reasons why we need it in-game (particularly in VR, I can imagine this not being such an issue in 2D).

And since the in-game pilot models often are shown with lowered visor, this should be by default enabled (including shader effects) for all DCS modules - at least those more recent than WW2 with the latter probably using a sunglasses option instead.

In more recent ED modules, the keybinds for raising/lowering the visor are there, including pilot animations but they don't actually do anything. When people point that out, their posts get moved from Bug Reports to Wishlist instead...  So why not complete that work that has clearly already begun?

Cheers for reading and considering.

Kind regards,
Raven.


P.S. I'll leave you with a few examples:

https://steamcommunity.com/app/223750/discussions/0/1643167006282305800/?l=turkish
 

[twistking]

You are mixing two unrelated things. Your problem is an accessibility problem that should be easily fixable by yourself by adjusting your display, your room lighting, your eye-wear or software LUT.

Functional helmet visors would be a cool feature, but if you separate it from your accessibility problems, it becomes more of a gimmick (at least until DCS supports HDR).

Edited December 12, 2024 by twistking

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

2 minutes ago, twistking said:

easily fixable by yourself by adjusting your monitor, your room lighting, your eye-wear

Please read the post before commenting - properly this time. Thanks.

[twistking]

4 minutes ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

Please read the post before commenting - properly this time. Thanks.

I've done that. Is this about you flying in VR? That would make adjusting your room lighting a moot point, i agree. My argument still stands though, no?

Edited December 12, 2024 by twistking

[Vakarian]

You missed the point by a mile.

OP just describes, in a very detailed way (nothing wrong with it, better this way as it drives the point more), why the visors are needed for every module, not just a select few. I mean, you have a visor on your 3D model of a pilot, but it's not functional. So "simply" make it functional, that's it. 

I fully agree with OPs point, I love the visor on the KW, wish the other modules (mostly ED ones) would implement it as well and have it required as the standard.

[twistking]

10 minutes ago, Vakarian said:

You missed the point by a mile.

OP just describes, in a very detailed way (nothing wrong with it, better this way as it drives the point more), why the visors are needed for every module, not just a select few. I mean, you have a visor on your 3D model of a pilot, but it's not functional. So "simply" make it functional, that's it. 

I fully agree with OPs point, I love the visor on the KW, wish the other modules (mostly ED ones) would implement it as well and have it required as the standard.

Functioning visors would be a cool immersive features. We just should not treat them as an accessibility feature. Therefore accessibility is not a good argument for implementation of said feature. I'm not arguing against the feature by itself.
There are better and more sustainable ways for the OP to deal with his accessibility problems.

Edited December 12, 2024 by twistking

[Vakarian]

Ok, so IRL pilots having visors is just an "accessibility" feature and they don't need it? Do you guys honestly never use visors when playing DCS? 

It's not about monitors image brightness being too high, it's for when you are flying in DCS, on a sunny day where the sun is almost blinding to the point you can't see HUD. Plop down a visor and you can see better. Did you try that feature on any of the aircraft in DCS that supports it? If you did, can you still argue that there's no benefit of having such visors in DCS?

Yes, OP is using his IRL problems to further drive the point, but the root problem is that the visors are not implemented in most of the modules in DCS where they should be and it has an actual gameplay value! I can see stuff in the air way better when having the visor down, however sometimes I have to lift the visor to see the stuff on the ground better as the sun is not in a way there.

[twistking]

26 minutes ago, Vakarian said:

Ok, so IRL pilots having visors is just an "accessibility" feature and they don't need it? Do you guys honestly never use visors when playing DCS? 

It's not about monitors image brightness being too high, it's for when you are flying in DCS, on a sunny day where the sun is almost blinding to the point you can't see HUD. Plop down a visor and you can see better. Did you try that feature on any of the aircraft in DCS that supports it? If you did, can you still argue that there's no benefit of having such visors in DCS?

Yes, OP is using his IRL problems to further drive the point, but the root problem is that the visors are not implemented in most of the modules in DCS where they should be and it has an actual gameplay value! I can see stuff in the air way better when having the visor down, however sometimes I have to lift the visor to see the stuff on the ground better as the sun is not in a way there.

IRL pilots have to deal with brightness levels that don't even compare to computer graphics on an LCD. Brightness levels in DCS are tonemapped and merely an artistic representation of reality. The engine may utilize PBR, but the output is "arbitrarily" compressed to fit the tonal range of standard definition consumer hardware. There is NO comparison.

Let's not get into a discussion for the sake of a discussion though. In the end we all DO agree that functional visors would be a cool feature.

Edited December 12, 2024 by twistking

[Vakarian]

10 minutes ago, twistking said:

Let's not get into a discussion for the sake of a discussion though. In the end we all DO agree that functional visors would be a good feature.

Well, you could have lead your first post with this and all would be fine  Yeah, I know IRL and Digital worlds do not compare, but I didn't want to see this thread turn into a technical discussion rather keep it in "is there a gameplay  / useability value" domain.

As we now all agree there is a gameplay value and would be beneficial to have them functional, the more of us agree the better chances of it getting implemented.

[buceador]

The Russian FC aircraft have a HUD drop down filter, maybe some iteration of that could be used ( The new F-16 pilot model can raise and lower the visor despite there being no difference in the result)  

[PLUTON]

701 / 5 000

 

Résultats de traduction

Résultat de traduction

Haaaaaaaaaa it warms my heart to see a thread that deals with the problem of the visors of the ED modules which never brings anything as a change from the uncomfortable glare of flying without real effect of the visors. Several times I tried to bring the subject and each time my request was moved (for me it meant, we will see that one day when we have nothing else to do) ED prides itself on giving us one of the best simulators that exists so I would say make sure that the visors are simulated like the rest. Thank you ED for taking into consideration the request that we have been making for a long time now. Thank you in advance and continue to make us dream.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

1 hour ago, twistking said:

Therefore accessibility is not a good argument

This is not about accessibility. I just added my own personal reasons alongside the others which have already been brought to ED's attention for years. I have also briefly mentioned it in my initial post (and linked to a few examples or requests here or on other platforms). Again, for me this is a much bigger issue than for most others who wants sun visors in DCS, for the reasons I stated.
And you know what they say: one is never alone with a particular question/concern. There are always others (who don't speak up), so I bet there are other people here who have this particular "accessibility issue" as you describe it - which never prevented me from accessing DCS in the past before the lighting was overhauled (again, as I mentioned before).

1 hour ago, twistking said:

his

her 

1 hour ago, Schlingel mit Kringel said:

Your arguments just don't sum up here.

Why not? I described the reasons why *I* can't fly modules that don't have a sun visor, which makes it a critical issue for me. You say I am imagining things?
I also mentioned the reasons the other gazillion posts about this topic talk about. Why repeat what others have been asking for for years? I am not interested in starting a new thread only to bring up the very same arguments again. I could have chosen to bump an existing thread instead, but I didn't.

37 minutes ago, buceador said:

The Russian FC aircraft have a HUD drop down filter

They do, but with varying degrees of usability. Some are far too dark, and they also only protect against sun glare in the HUD, not when looking outside of the cockpit to the sides.
In fact, this is the reason why Heatblur's F-4 is the only aircraft without a sun visor that I can fly for a while without issues: there is so much real estate in the way that it actually helps me, as long as I don't look around a lot (which you should be doing in a fighter for obvious reasons).

[twistking]

9 minutes ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

This is not about accessibility. I just added my own personal reasons alongside the others which have already been brought to ED's attention for years. I have also briefly mentioned it in my initial post (and linked to a few examples or requests here or on other platforms). Again, for me this is a much bigger issue than for most others who wants sun visors in DCS, for the reasons I stated.
And you know what they say: one is never alone with a particular question/concern. There are always others (who don't speak up), so I bet there are other people here who have this particular "accessibility issue" as you describe it - which never prevented me from accessing DCS in the past before the lighting was overhauled (again, as I mentioned before).

her 

Why not? I described the reasons why *I* can't fly modules that don't have a sun visor, which makes it a critical issue for me. You say I am imagining things?
I also mentioned the reasons the other gazillion posts about this topic talk about. Why repeat what others have been asking for for years? I am not interested in starting a new thread only to bring up the very same arguments again. I could have chosen to bump an existing thread instead, but I didn't.

They do, but with varying degrees of usability. Some are far too dark, and they also only protect against sun glare in the HUD, not when looking outside of the cockpit to the sides.
In fact, this is the reason why Heatblur's F-4 is the only aircraft without a sun visor that I can fly for a while without issues: there is so much real estate in the way that it actually helps me, as long as I don't look around a lot (which you should be doing in a fighter for obvious reasons).

Sorry for misgendering! I just think that your specific issues could be more easily and more effectively solved by yourself through a custom software LUT or physical filtering that works well for your sensibilities. Even if functional visors would become a standardized feature, future changes to the DCS HDR tonemap or future generations of (brighter) VR headsets could make the issue worse for you again.

It just seems like a crude and potentially unsustainable solution to your problem.

[ectomia]

The community Oh6J mod has it when you click a button it adjusts the view/contrast
Also the Harrier used to have it but now does not.

In the mean time if you have OpenXr toolkit you can toggle a sunvisor setting

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

1 hour ago, twistking said:

Sorry for misgendering

No worries at all

1 hour ago, twistking said:

more easily and more effectively solved by yourself through a custom software LUT or physical filtering

If I can find something like that, that I can bind to a HOTAS button and works as a toggle switch, of course. I don't know if that exists, and I had to look up what LUT means  
 

1 hour ago, twistking said:

future changes to the DCS HDR tonemap or future generations of (brighter) VR headsets

Funnily enough HDR screens tend to have a *lower* overall brightness, not higher. Sure, the maximum brightness can be higher but not necessarily. I already lowered the brightness of my Aero, but I need to be careful with that since I obviously want to see what I'm doing at night as well.
At the moment, sunvisors work perfectly well for the modules that have them.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

5 minutes ago, ectomia said:

OpenXr toolkit you can toggle a sunvisor setting

I used to have that, but no longer so because of compatibility problems. It is generally not advised to use it for DCS anyway, in ED's own words.
Besides, can that be bound to HOTAS as a toggle? Otherwise it's not useful anyway since when you fly above or below clouds has such a dramatic effect in DCS such a function needs easy access. Aka sunvisors, as real helmets have.

[Grodin]

Would absolutely love it. Some headsets have very dull colors and brightness that even a simple cloud makes the hud unreadable, F15E sunvisor makes it perfectly readable again.

[twistking]

On 12/12/2024 at 7:30 PM, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

[...] If I can find something like that, that I can bind to a HOTAS button and works as a toggle switch, of course. I don't know if that exists, and I had to look up what LUT means  
[...] Funnily enough HDR screens tend to have a *lower* overall brightness, not higher. Sure, the maximum brightness can be higher but not necessarily. I already lowered the brightness of my Aero, but I need to be careful with that since I obviously want to see what I'm doing at night as well.
At the moment, sunvisors work perfectly well for the modules that have them.

LUT means look-up-table and describes a definable matrix for tone-mapping/color correction. In the broader sense (and that's how i used it) it can simply mean "custom tonemapping" or more simply put: "custom color/brightness settings".
The idea would be that you find a program where you can dial in a custom "LUT" (a custom set of parameters), that will change the output of a specific program (in this case DCS) in a way that is optimal for your sensibilities. For 2d there is a program called "reshade", but i'm not sure if it will work with VR as well...

I think with some fiddling you could create a "LUT" that works well for you, during (DCS) day and night, while still looking good. For example you could leave the blacks and midtones where they are and only roll back the highlights. Or tint the highlights, or cut them off completely. You will need to learn a  bit about color correction, but judging by the severity of your symptoms, it may be worth it (also talk to an ophthalmologist about the headaches if you haven't already).

If something in DCS changes, or you get a new VR headset with a different colour response, you can just tweak your LUT again and be up in the air in no time.

ps: Working visors in DCS would still be a cool feature!

Edited December 14, 2024 by twistking

[MAXsenna]

Thanks for your explanation @twistking! I do now remember the "poisen" discussion in Kola.

I wonder if anyone could make a LUT Mod Tweaker app? Or could this actually be a wishlist item? 

Cheers! 

[twistking]

11 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Thanks for your explanation @twistking! I do now remember the "poisen" discussion in Kola.

I wonder if anyone could make a LUT Mod Tweaker app? Or could this actually be a wishlist item? 

Cheers! 

I do like me some colours!

You are right. There is a selectable LUT in the graphics options now, isn't it? An option to make a custom one would be very nice. I assume it's already possible with LUA, but i haven't looked into it yet. If it accepts custom LUA someone smarter than me could probably create a webapp for it.

Cheers!

Edited December 14, 2024 by twistking

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

21 minutes ago, twistking said:

Working visors in DCS would still be a cool feature!

We agree, then. That was the point of the post I made after all. 
Both ED and Heatblur have already said they’d get working sun visors for their modules, but knowing both that could very well take “2 weeks” (aka 5+ years).

I'd prefer to light a fire underneath their bums - in the nicest way possible of course

[ectomia]

Recently I have been getting quite sore eyes from sun exposure from my headset and for health reasons it should be considered. Found this when refuelling in particular because you have to keep looking up for the tanker in the Viper. I used to use OpenXR toolkit to add the sunshade option, but as I have now got Virtual Desktop I dont use it because it conflicts. 
It may be worth looking into the scripting for the free OH6J mod as that has a suitable setting for sunvisor and see if that can be added universally to helmets.
Visor option would be handy. 

[Jayhawk1971]

+1 to functional helmet visors/ sunglasses for all modules. Like it's already implemented in the Strike Eagle.

[ectomia]

14 hours ago, Schlingel mit Kringel said:

You do not get sore eyes from looking at a virtual sky or sun, stop making up stuff guys You likely got dry eyes and a virtual sun visor will not fix that. Go ask your ophthalmologist for health advice please.

You do get issues from looking at artificial light close to the eye which affects the pineal gland thank you

 

Edited December 19, 2024 by ectomia
spelling mistake

[ShuRugal]

On 12/12/2024 at 12:21 PM, twistking said:

I just think that your specific issues could be more easily and more effectively solved by yourself through a custom software LUT or physical filtering that works well for your sensibilities.

The problem with an out-of-game solution is that it's using a sledgehammer to kill a hornet.  The limitations of using an out-of-game solution include:

1. "one size fits all" limitations. 
   1. If I am flying during the day and need the filter on, and then fly a mission at night, i must leave the game to change the filter settings.
   2. If i am flying a dawn or dusk mission, i might need the filter when facing one way, then not need it when facing another.  i sure as hell am not restarting the mission or alt-tabbing every time i TURN
2. While i may be technically competent to set something like this up, many, i would even say most, users are not.  "just write yourself a custom middelware to apply a LUT filter!" is a ridiculous suggestion, even ignoring point 1.
3. Future updates will likely break my external solution, requiring me to re-tune or even reconfigure it entirely with any update that touch game lighting
4. ED themselves have strongly advised against using the tools which can provide such external filtering.  there are known performance issues that they cause in DCS.

 

"crude and unsustainable" is the phrase i would use to describe "use an external software to do it".  ED adding a "toggle pilot helmet sun filter" function is the opposite of crude and unsustainable. 

As far as the folks suggesting "just wear sunglasses under your VR headset" - that is an absolutely absurd idea.  My regular glasses barely fit in my VR headset as it is, i certainly cannot add sunglasses in there as well.  Even if i could, this suggestion has the same "one size fits all" problems as applying an external software filter, with the added problem of "take my VR headset off every time the lighting conditions change".

Edited December 20, 2024 by ShuRugal