Eurofighter 2026+ release?

[Horns]

14 minutes ago, cfrag said:

That would be nice, yet entirely against gamer social patterns. Behavioral patterns tell us that those who do purchase would probably buy a lower-cost/high return module (e.g. Flaming Cliffs) or iconic FF module, play for a while, and eventually lose interest. That's typically around 50% of those who purchase. A part of the remaining 50% progress to a FF module, and we again face a 50% fall-off after some time. Prime issue here is the - compared to other entertainment titles - relatively high acquisition cost of modules, and dearth of high-quality content (missions, campaigns). To me it's similar to titles with low end-game content: nothing left to do. These are strong gating functions for entertainment titles. From there, the remaining 25% will see a stronger tendency to remain, meaning that those who do remain will be likely to purchase an additional map, and have a good likelihood to slowly acquire more modules. This is also the crowd that is likely to supply on-line players.

But indeed, although we may come up with great models for customer distribution, retention, price elasticity and spending habits, I really know nothing, and all I'm writing is purely (mildly educated) conjecture, and a lot of wishful thinking - I want ED to be as successful and around for as long as possible. 

A person I knew who was studying documentaries once said you can safely turn off any given documentary if it says anything like "we don't have any evidence, but if we did it would probably say...". Unless you have hard numbers, which I think you concede in your last sentence you don't, you have no foundation for anything you've said there.

[Horns]

9 hours ago, cfrag said:

(...) there's a good 30% chance that they still won't make it. IIRC, that's DCS's current hit/miss ratio with modules (yeah, MAC, I'm looking at you)

 

DCS: Flaming Cliffs 2024 - granted, they changed the name, but it did indeed release

[cfrag]

14 minutes ago, Horns said:

Unless you have hard numbers, which I think you concede in your last sentence you don't,

Agreed. I don't have hard numbers, and all I wrote is conjecture/BS. Then again, when you read some books yourself, you may find out what the term "educated guess" means. It's still a guess, yes. The difference is... you'll find out.

 

8 minutes ago, Horns said:

granted, they changed the name, but it did indeed release

Not at all. MAC was supposed to be an entire game, similar to, but not DCS. That was the point. Perhaps watch the 2018 'trailer' (link is to a yt commenter, not the trailer). We can argue that with FC 20245 ED re-purposed and salvaged what remained of MAC. I'm not squabbling over details, and usually would have let that slide -- yet you seem to be the one insisting on hard, accurate facts. 

Edited January 30 by cfrag

[TobiasA]

The one thing I really want to know is if it's the multiplayer crowd that owns the most modules, or if it is people playing singleplayer.

I bought maps I had no interest in only to be able to participate in group events.

But then, we know that the vast majority of DCS players are mostly single player oriented...

Anyway, the people buying the Eurofighter are probably mostly already in DCS, and everyone buying any Heatblur module has a high risk of buying all of them... Which is good for DCS as a whole. 

[Horns]

5 hours ago, cfrag said:

Agreed. I don't have hard numbers, and all I wrote is conjecture/BS. Then again, when you read some books yourself, you may find out what the term "educated guess" means. It's still a guess, yes. The difference is... you'll find out.

 

Not at all. MAC was supposed to be an entire game, similar to, but not DCS. That was the point. Perhaps watch the 2018 'trailer' (link is to a yt commenter, not the trailer). We can argue that with FC 20245 ED re-purposed and salvaged what remained of MAC. I'm not squabbling over details, and usually would have let that slide -- yet you seem to be the one insisting on hard, accurate facts. 

An educated guess occurs when one is using some known information to extrapolate. All you wrote is conjecture/BS, in your words.. Nothing educated about that, and you not knowing the difference speaks volumes. Maybe you should try looking up what terms mean before using them in sentences.

As for MAC, if your point had been that concepts for products can change before release then maybe MAC would have supported your point. Your point was that about 30% of modules don’t get released, and you tried to support that with a reference to a set of modules that released. If you don’t see how that doesn’t work you have bigger problems than I thought.

[Raviel29]

On 1/30/2025 at 10:31 AM, Horns said:

If you're talking about DCS aircraft I might agree, but if we're talking IRL I think perhaps you are forgetting the F-22. I'm impressed with the EF and to some extent the Rafale, but I don't think either of those can compete with a Raptor, even with the EF having the Meteor... but each to their own I guess  

I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but the facts speak for themselves. During those training exercises, the Rafale did indeed score multiple gun kills on the F-22. This wasn’t speculation—it was documented, and even caught on camera.

Now, does that mean the Rafale is a superior aircraft overall? Not necessarily. The F-22 is a 5th generation stealth fighter designed primarily for beyond-visual-range engagements, while the Rafale is an exceptionally agile 4.5 generation multirole fighter. However, in close-range dogfights, where raw maneuverability and energy management play a crucial role, the Rafale demonstrated that it could gain the advantage—even over the Raptor.

At the end of the day, no aircraft is unbeatable. Tactics, pilot skill, and the specific combat scenario all influence the outcome. The notion that the F-22 is invincible simply doesn't hold up to real-world exercises

[Horns]

26 minutes ago, Raviel29 said:

I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but the facts speak for themselves. During those training exercises, the Rafale did indeed score multiple gun kills on the F-22. This wasn’t speculation—it was documented, and even caught on camera.

Now, does that mean the Rafale is a superior aircraft overall? Not necessarily. The F-22 is a 5th generation stealth fighter designed primarily for beyond-visual-range engagements, while the Rafale is an exceptionally agile 4.5 generation multirole fighter. However, in close-range dogfights, where raw maneuverability and energy management play a crucial role, the Rafale demonstrated that it could gain the advantage—even over the Raptor.

At the end of the day, no aircraft is unbeatable. Tactics, pilot skill, and the specific combat scenario all influence the outcome. The notion that the F-22 is invincible simply doesn't hold up to real-world exercises

I'll take your word re these guns kills - I don't doubt you, but is there an article or video you can link? If not no problem and I don't suggest it diminishes your point either way, I'm just curious. As far as maneuverability goes, I'd have to see something very compelling to convince me a Rafale could even approach the F-22's maneuverability, especially given the effect of thrust vectoring. However, even if we take these training sorties as representative, at the absolute most that might demonstrate the Rafale was better if a fight got to guns range, not that it's a better fighter overall, to say nothing of the relative detection ranges given the F-22's all-aspect stealth. Apologies to the EF which hasn't even been considered here.

All that said, I'm not adding anything to back up my position here so I'm happy to concede the discussion. We can agree nothing is unbeatable, and I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on which of these aircraft come out on top.

Perhaps we can agree that it will be fun to get all kinds of kills on Fat Amy in our Eurofighters in a couple years?

[Raviel29]

23 hours ago, Horns said:

I'll take your word re these guns kills - I don't doubt you, but is there an article or video you can link? If not no problem and I don't suggest it diminishes your point either way, I'm just curious. As far as maneuverability goes, I'd have to see something very compelling to convince me a Rafale could even approach the F-22's maneuverability, especially given the effect of thrust vectoring. However, even if we take these training sorties as representative, at the absolute most that might demonstrate the Rafale was better if a fight got to guns range, not that it's a better fighter overall, to say nothing of the relative detection ranges given the F-22's all-aspect stealth. Apologies to the EF which hasn't even been considered here.

All that said, I'm not adding anything to back up my position here so I'm happy to concede the discussion. We can agree nothing is unbeatable, and I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on which of these aircraft come out on top.

Perhaps we can agree that it will be fun to get all kinds of kills on Fat Amy in our Eurofighters in a couple years?

Ofcourse, it was In 2009, during military exercises in the UAE, a simulated dogfight took place between the French Dassault Rafale and the American F-22 Raptor. The Rafale managed to gain a favorable position over the F-22, as captured in footage later released by the French Ministry of Defense, suggesting that the Rafale "shot down" the F-22 in the simulation.

 

 

[Dragon1-1]

On 1/31/2025 at 5:21 PM, Raviel29 said:

The notion that the F-22 is invincible simply doesn't hold up to real-world exercises

I wouldn't be surprised if that very notion was how the Raptor jock got himself in the Rafale's gunsight. "Oh, my aircraft is so much better, I don't need to make any effort at all to beat it." Easy trap to fall into, especially considering Raptor's reputation, and that most aggressors on the US side aircraft somewhat less nimble than the Rafale. TVC is not magic, and if the Rafale's pilot was much better, it's not hard to believe he won in a dogfight.

The 5th gen superiority shows primarily in the BVR area, where stealth increases your ability to launch at the enemy without being detected. This is determined by the qualities of the aircraft themselves far more than a WVR fight, which is a game of skill, especially guns only fights, where you can't even rely on superior missiles.

[Horns]

16 hours ago, Raviel29 said:

Ofcourse, it was In 2009, during military exercises in the UAE, a simulated dogfight took place between the French Dassault Rafale and the American F-22 Raptor. The Rafale managed to gain a favorable position over the F-22, as captured in footage later released by the French Ministry of Defense, suggesting that the Rafale "shot down" the F-22 in the simulation.

 

 

Thanks for posting that. So six wins for the Raptor, one for the Rafale and five draws. To me that says advantage Raptor, but as mentioned, nothing's unbeatable, dogfights only mean so much and, as Dragon 1-1 pointed out we don't know how the pilots compared or any of the other variables. Still, I wasn't aware of that exercise so thanks for expanding my knowledge, much appreciated 

Edit: Should have added something explicit saying that I agree 100% with what you said in your previous post that the F-22 is not invincible, but my point was that the EF and Rafale are not 'unrivaled' as fighters of today as you'd suggested previously. They are very good aircraft nonetheless.

Edited February 2 by Horns

[Horns]

On 2/2/2025 at 1:17 AM, Dragon1-1 said:

I wouldn't be surprised if that very notion was how the Raptor jock got himself in the Rafale's gunsight. "Oh, my aircraft is so much better, I don't need to make any effort at all to beat it." Easy trap to fall into, especially considering Raptor's reputation, and that most aggressors on the US side aircraft somewhat less nimble than the Rafale. TVC is not magic, and if the Rafale's pilot was much better, it's not hard to believe he won in a dogfight.

The 5th gen superiority shows primarily in the BVR area, where stealth increases your ability to launch at the enemy without being detected. This is determined by the qualities of the aircraft themselves far more than a WVR fight, which is a game of skill, especially guns only fights, where you can't even rely on superior missiles.

Totally agree thrust vectoring 'isn't magic', and it's not going to let an unskilled and/or inexperienced pilot beat a good one, regardless of who's flying what. When I mentioned thrust vectoring I was just trying to use that as one example of why I believe the maneuverability advantage between the two aircraft would have to go to the Raptor - not that that would gift the win to the Raptor pilot regardless. Reading back I may not have made that point clearly, it did look a bit like I was saying "F-22 cos thrust vectoring".

I also agree that the advantage that 5th gen capabilities confer is in BVR - once the fighters are at guns range they are well within burn-through so stealth wouldn't be a factor at that point. While one can argue the F-35's RCS (from the right aspect) and DASS give it an advantage over many 4th gen fighters in BVR, it's difficult to say being fifth-gen does anything to help it at gunzo range.

Last and perhaps most importantly, I agree that dogfight results have less to do with comparative aircraft advantages than the pilots. Who's fighting who's fight will matter a lot more than a lot of high-end capabilities in-close.

[Raviel29]

17 hours ago, Horns said:

Totally agree thrust vectoring 'isn't magic', and it's not going to let an unskilled and/or inexperienced pilot beat a good one, regardless of who's flying what. When I mentioned thrust vectoring I was just trying to use that as one example of why I believe the maneuverability advantage between the two aircraft would have to go to the Raptor - not that that would gift the win to the Raptor pilot regardless. Reading back I may not have made that point clearly, it did look a bit like I was saying "F-22 cos thrust vectoring".

I also agree that the advantage that 5th gen capabilities confer is in BVR - once the fighters are at guns range they are well within burn-through so stealth wouldn't be a factor at that point. While one can argue the F-35's RCS (from the right aspect) and DASS give it an advantage over many 4th gen fighters in BVR, it's difficult to say being fifth-gen does anything to help it at gunzo range.

Last and perhaps most importantly, I agree that dogfight results have less to do with comparative aircraft advantages than the pilots. Who's fighting who's fight will matter a lot more than a lot of high-end capabilities in-close.

Looking at the direction in which modern military aviation is heading—considering aircraft like the F-22, F-35, or the Chinese sixth-generation fighters—it seems that the future belongs to unmanned aerial vehicles controlled from secure ground stations. The pilot is increasingly becoming a limiting factor for the aircraft’s capabilities, and the advancement of autonomous and remotely operated platforms only reinforces this trend. In this context, our skills gained from flight simulators like DCS might prove crucial. I am convinced that most of us would handle basic piloting quite well, and operating an advanced drone would be almost effortless.

[Zabuzard]

On 1/17/2025 at 4:18 AM, OldFlyer said:

The F35 FAQ suggests that ED is targeting release of the F35 module in 2026.

The FAQ also says "later introduction of .... Eurofighter and others".

Should we expect a release window of 2026+?

 

Just to make sure since I see this being the "base source" spawning multiple discussions here on the forum:
The statement in the FAQ might have been worded in an unfortunate way - it does in no way hint at a release timeframe for the EF.

[BigBorner]

32 minutes ago, Zabuzard said:

it does in no way hint at a release timeframe for the EF.

[TheFreshPrince]

Am 1.2.2025 um 18:01 schrieb Raviel29:

Ofcourse, it was In 2009, during military exercises in the UAE, a simulated dogfight took place between the French Dassault Rafale and the American F-22 Raptor. The Rafale managed to gain a favorable position over the F-22, as captured in footage later released by the French Ministry of Defense, suggesting that the Rafale "shot down" the F-22 in the simulation.

 

 

Better post the original footage. You can see and hear the pilot worked hard for this "kill" and the F22 did his usual shenanigans. But in the end, physics still apply and in such a low speed fight (look at the Speed), the Rafale is pretty good.

 

[OldFlyer]

5 hours ago, Zabuzard said:

Just to make sure since I see this being the "base source" spawning multiple discussions here on the forum:
The statement in the FAQ might have been worded in an unfortunate way - it does in no way hint at a release timeframe for the EF.

Thank you very much @Zabuzard, I and I’m sure many others appreciate the response. Very much looking forward to this module!

[Lyrode]

2026 seems a bit too early for Typhoon.

A-6E and J-35 ai haven't been delivered (soon). F-14A 95gr is finishing up and HB in its news said more to come for F-14 in 2025. F-4E isn't finished and the promised DMAS is still on its way. Speaking of which, "the Phantom journey" would probably include a navy version (If ever).

And now we have a glimps of B(U) which looks more finished than Typhoon. At least we've already seen the cockpit.

It'll be wild that Typhoon drops anytime soon. 2026 seems impossible unless miracle. Even if so, Heatblur still has its plate full for a decade.

[TobiasA]

Am 4.2.2025 um 13:51 schrieb Lyrode:

It'll be wild that Typhoon drops anytime soon. 2026 seems impossible unless miracle. Even if so, Heatblur still has its plate full for a decade.

Yes, but there is TrueGrit as well. I don't know who the main developer is, but TrueGrit is only working on the Typhoon. 

[Mike Force Team]

Maybe we will habe more information in March for the Eurofighter. 

[Tom Kazansky]

 

[M1Combat]

On 1/31/2025 at 9:21 AM, Raviel29 said:

During those training exercises, the Rafale did indeed score multiple gun kills on the F-22. This wasn’t speculation—it was documented, and even caught on camera.

 

The F22 can't be sold.  To anyone.  For any reason.

 

The F22 pilots actually have a keen interest in helping allied AF's sell their aircraft AND in keeping the capability of the F22 under wraps...  So...  Which way does that fight always have to go when someone's watching?

[Father Cool]

11 hours ago, M1Combat said:

The F22 can't be sold.  To anyone.  For any reason.

 

The F22 pilots actually have a keen interest in helping allied AF's sell their aircraft AND in keeping the capability of the F22 under wraps...  So...  Which way does that fight always have to go when someone's watching?

What utter BS, so now we can just say F22 is unbeatable in combat because whenever its put up against anything its intentionally made to lose to hide what it can do? Ok lol

[M1Combat]

Yup.  Total crap.

[Dragon1-1]

On 2/10/2025 at 11:51 PM, M1Combat said:

The F22 can't be sold.  To anyone.  For any reason.

Probably because they stopped making them after 200 airframes, because it was way too expensive. Not because it's got some magic American tech inside that's forbidden for anyone else. It's a good jet, but hardly the most advanced in the world at this point.

These are fighter pilots, they don't care about helping corporate drones peddle their aircraft. When they get in a fight, they fight to win. WVR performance is not a key characteristic of an aircraft that's worth keeping under wraps. That would be its capabilities in BVR arena, particularly the radar and the stealth. You don't buy a 5th gen fighter to get into dogfights with it. 

It is possible that the Raptor's pilot did not utilize the F-22's capabilities to their fullest extent, but not because he was trying to throw the fight. It would be because he wasn't as good as the Rafale driver. WVR is, like I mentioned, a game of skill, and even if you have the numbers on your side, if you do something dumb against a competent opponent, you will lose. A vastly superior jet can forgive you a mistake or two, but if your WVR game isn't up to it, your opponent can always find a way for you to make one too many. In this case, F-22 isn't even that far ahead of the Rafale, particularly in low speed area (never try fighting slow against a carrier jet unless you're in one yourself), which was how the Raptor jock ended up in Rafale's HUD.

[BigBorner]

2 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Not because it's got some magic American tech inside that's forbidden for anyone else.

That’s not entirely true. 
Theres a pretty extensive and meanwhile declassified ppt out there with a study on how much it would cost to restart production to do an export F-22. This also hints at removing some „magic murican tech“ in order to make it exportable.