Free F-15C or Su-27 instead of free Su-25

[dcn]

If ED can make Su-25 free,why not F-15C or Su-27?Their prices are the same.I think F-15C and Su-27 are more suitable for beginners and can attract more new players to DCS.

[Sunbather]

Ah yes, promising the F-15C for free when the FF F-15C just got announced. You must be a businessman!

[Skuva]

You can answer it just by looking at the amount of reviews each plane has on Steam and guesstimating how much it sells.

F-15C: 369 reviews

Su-33: 203 reviews

MiG-29: 140 reviews

A-10A: 120 reviews

Su-27: 92 reviews

Su-25A: 22 reviews

So in all of these 12 years selling on Steam, the Su-25A sold basically nothing as a standalone module. And you can bet it is also not convincing enough people to buy the whole FC for it. So handing it for free alongside its fancier brother Su-25T has close to zero impact on ED's bottom-line, while positively affecting the perception of new players trying the game for free.

Now, why they are also giving it a rework? I don't know. I would assume it would be in their interest to at least have a initial capitalization on this work. Or maybe this rework will be accompanied of a Su-25T rework too that they just didn't feel like announcing yet.

But I also think adding just a worse version of the already free aircraft has very little impact on the freeware experience. And they should either offer the Su-27, giving new players a taste of air-to-air combat, although this could impact Su-33 and MiG-29 sales. Or offer the A-10A, giving a bluefor CAS experience, although this could impact A-10C sales.

EDIT: To clarify, I don't believe adding Su-27 and A-10A into the free package would be remotely beneficial economically in the current state of the game. As offering more experiences to new player would strip from the desire of experiencing more with a paid module. Because this would accelerate that process most of us go through, of trying most of what the game has to offer and start to notice how the core of the product has problems and is lacking in important areas. So a significant portion of potential buyers could be swayed way too early. This might have sound like bad business practice, but every free sample should taste good, while also leaving most to the imagination of what else there is to the product.

Edited February 2 by Skuva
forgot mig-29

[MAXsenna]

You can answer it just by looking at the amount of reviews each plane has on Steam and guesstimating how much it sells.
F-15C: 369 reviews
Su-33: 203 reviews
A-10A: 120 reviews
Su-27: 92 reviews
Su-25A: 22 reviews
So the in all of these 12 years selling on Steam, the Su-25A sold basically nothing as a standalone module. And you can bet it is also not convincing enough people to buy the whole FC just for it. So handing it for free alongside its fancier brother Su-25T has close to zero impact on ED's bottom-line, while positively affecting the perception of new players trying the game for free.
Now, why they are also giving it a rework? I don't know. I would assume it would be in their interest to at least have a initial capitalization on this work. Or maybe this rework will be accompanied of a Su-25T rework too that they just didn't feel like announcing yet.

That's really interesting. I guess the Su-33 will be the next FF Redfor for ED then.

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Ah yes, promising the F-15C for free when the FF F-15C just got announced. You must be a businessman!

And yet they made FC versions of three FF ones. Won't ever think the FC F-15C will be free..

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[Sunbather]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb MAXsenna:

And yet they made FC versions of three FF ones. Won't ever think the FC F-15C will be free..

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I stand partially corrected. I was in "WW2 experience in DCS" rant mode.

Still, let's not confuse things here: having both paid FC and FF modules of the same A/C is not the same as at the same time announcing a new FF module and a free FC module of the same A/C. Also, the logic is reverse here: making a FF into a FC one is a sound business decision because it reels in new customers with a lower priced module.

[dcn]

18分钟前，Skuva说：

You can answer it just by looking at the amount of reviews each plane has on Steam and guesstimating how much it sells.

F-15C: 369 reviews

Su-33: 203 reviews

MiG-29: 140 reviews

A-10A: 120 reviews

Su-27: 92 reviews

Su-25A: 22 reviews

ED forum
A-10A 2.3k posts
MiG-29 5.3k posts
Su-25 3.9k posts
F-15C 15k posts
Su-27 14.9k posts
Su-33 3.1k posts

19分钟前，Skuva说：

And they should either offer the Su-27, giving new players a taste of air-to-air combat, although this could impact Su-33 and MiG-29 sales. Or offer the A-10A, giving a bluefor CAS experience, although this could impact A-10C sales.

You inspired me. Maybe Su-25T affected the sales of Su-25.

[Skuva]

21 minutes ago, Sunbather said:

I stand partially corrected. I was in "WW2 experience in DCS" rant mode.

Still, let's not confuse things here: having both paid FC and FF modules of the same A/C is not the same as at the same time announcing a new FF module and a free FC module of the same A/C. Also, the logic is reverse here: making a FF into a FC one is a sound business decision because it reels in new customers with a lower priced module.

By now it is clear that releasing FC versions of F-5, F-86 and MiG-15 in DCS was not the intended plan. They did because those were made for the MAC project which didn't go well and had to be scrubbed.

The thing that bothers me with the presence of both FC and FF versions of the same aircraft is how it is not being handled with an upgrade program in mind like other modules. Every owner of an FC module should be offered, even if small, a discount on the FF version, because it feels a really bad purchase decision when you buy one of these aircraft and suddenly you feel like you need to pay for an entire new module just to click buttons so it is better to just stay with the FC version, and this feeling could end up cannibalizing ED's sales of the more expensive FF versions.

11 minutes ago, dcn said:

Su-25 3.9k posts

And most threads on the Su-25 subforum are about the T variant. So it is even worse than it seems.

Edited February 2 by Skuva

[dcn]

1小时前，Sunbather说：

Ah yes, promising the F-15C for free when the FF F-15C just got announced. You must be a businessman!

I don't think it's a big problem. I think the audience of FC and FF don't overlap much, and I think most people come to DCS to play FF modules rather than FC.

41分钟前，Skuva说：

The thing that bothers me with the presence of both FC and FF versions of the same aircraft is how it is not being handled with an upgrade program in mind like other modules. Every owner of an FC module should be offered, even if small, a discount on the FF version, because it feels a really bad purchase decision when you buy one of these aircraft and suddenly you feel like you need to pay for an entire new module just to click buttons so it is better to just stay with the FC version, and this feeling could end up cannibalizing ED's sales of the more expensive FF versions.

There is no precedent for this, and there is no upgrade available for Afghanistan and Iraq that would upgrade partial maps to full maps.

[MAXsenna]

1 hour ago, Skuva said:

Every owner of an FC module should be offered, even if small, a discount on the FF version,

Highly Disagree! The overhead related to accomplish this, by differentiating between what the user actually paid, makes this way too costly, futile. 

1 hour ago, Skuva said:

because it feels a really bad purchase decision when you buy one of these aircraft

How can it be a bad decision if the user have had the FC F-15C or other modules for years?

1 hour ago, Skuva said:

and suddenly you feel like you need to pay for an entire new module just to click buttons so it is better to just stay with the FC version

Well, if a user feels that way, one was probably not dedicated enough. We've been asking for FF modules for years and when they're coming demands for refunds suddenly stack up? Apologies, this doesn't make sense to me. It's probably a year off anyway. 

1 hour ago, Skuva said:

and this feeling could end up cannibalizing ED's sales of the more expensive FF versions.

I feel you hopefully have to eat those words.

45 minutes ago, dcn said:

I don't think it's a big problem. I think the audience of FC and FF don't overlap much, and I think most people come to DCS to play FF modules rather than FC.

Believe you're spot on here. 

45 minutes ago, dcn said:

There is no precedent for this, and there is no upgrade available for Afghanistan and Iraq that would upgrade partial maps to full maps.

True while learning. Wags said in the video before Iraq was announced, they were looking into giving a discount if you ended up purchasing all three parts of Afghanistan. Iraq will only have two. Don't think it will be a discount there. 

[draconus]

You can try for free any module for 2 weeks. It's like they all were already free.

[Czar66]

One product ownership shouldn't warrant a discount on another product for completely different goals, like as stated that FC and FF levels crowd overlap very little.

If the customer base overlap very little between these two levels, means the products are for very different for different purposes with very different characteristics, making weaker the argument of owning one would warrant a discount on the other.

Before you notice, things will be like: if that plane has the same radar as the one I own, I should be offered X amount of discount because I already paid for the module that includes that radar.

You only need one module to enjoy this game. I'm not saying everyone should pay for everything developed here. There is a tragedy of people with too many modules and overwhelmed by them unable to enjoy them at their best depth.

As long as content licenses are not removed from customers because of another product existing, I see no issue here. You'll be able to fly your older Su-25A regardless.

[MAXsenna]

24 minutes ago, JSmith said:

I completely agree, and the amount of backlash you're getting from all of the gas lighters is insane. We get it. You're bitter because you spent an insane amount of money on this game. That doesn't mean the rest of us have to.

WTF???

Who's gaslighting who? Basically we all said we approve of the free release and oppose refunds. Quite the opposite of what you accuse us for.  

 

[Skuva]

54 minutes ago, Czar66 said:

One product ownership shouldn't warrant a discount on another product for completely different goals, like as stated that FC and FF levels crowd overlap very little.

If the customer base overlap very little between these two levels, means the products are for very different for different purposes with very different characteristics, making weaker the argument of owning one would warrant a discount on the other.

It really concerns me how people in a supposedly highly dedicated community take one random user's word as gospel a jump into conclusions so easily.

Unless ED comes out and show data on how their customers behave, it makes no sense to treat it as a binary possibility of how much players like FC or FF, instead of treating it as a unknown spectrum.

In most cases these modules don't have "very different characteristics", and even in the cases where it has significant differences, like the F-5 lacking some functionality and weapons, it still doesn't compare to the difference in modules upgrades, like A-10C and Ka-50, both of which offer discounts to old owners. So if I who bought the Ka-50 for essentially U$7.57 in a discounted bundle, got a generous discount on the upgrade, why wouldn't it make sense to give someone who for example bought the FC Sabre, get a discount upgrading to the FF one, or even for those who owned other modules just like I owned a very cheaply acquired Ka-50 for so long. This is common practice across the software world, they offer users that already pay for their products an apparently exclusive discount and this push a lot of people on that unknown spectrum to spend more.

54 minutes ago, Czar66 said:

Before you notice, things will be like: if that plane has the same radar as the one I own, I should be offered X amount of discount because I already paid for the module that includes that radar.

And even treating the problem based on a unbased assumption, you still felt the need to invoke a straw man about radars.

54 minutes ago, Czar66 said:

You only need one module to enjoy this game.

That's very much your opinion and not a fact. I definitely wouldn't be able to enjoy this game as much with only one module, but you do you I guess.

Edited February 2 by Skuva

[MAXsenna]

7 minutes ago, Skuva said:

why wouldn't it make sense to give someone who for example bought the FC Sabre, get a discount upgrading to the FF one,

Wild guess. Because that will not be an upgrade as they are different products that co-exist in the store? Those upgrades you mentioned removed the old one from the store. So I will definitely say it cannot be up for comparison. For FC3 owners, there was a upgrade price to FC2024, while there was no downgrade price for the Sabre, Faggot and Tiger II.

Assuming ED decides to offer an "upgrade" price. What should that be? More than the initial cost if bought in a sale? Then, should the license be revoked for the FC lisence? How much time should ED spend on this? 

[Skuva]

6 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

So I will definitely say it cannot be up for comparison.

Well then, if you don't think it is up for comparison, then nothing is and nothing should ever be done about it.

7 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

while there was no downgrade price for the Sabre, Faggot and Tiger II.

Again, I believe if ED really wanted to make some easy money, they could well offer discount for owners of the FF version, there are numerous FF Tiger owners out there, wouldn't surprise me to know a fraction of them wished to either collect the FC version or just use it to play with the simplified systems, and a discount would motivate some of them to buy it. Now how much of a discount ED would need to accomplish a positive return from this tactic, only they can know that, I don't have their internal financial report here.

[Czar66]

38 minutes ago, Skuva said:

It really concerns me how people in a supposedly highly dedicated community take one random user's word as gospel a jump into conclusions so easily.

Not my opinion. Read it right. I disagree on the overlap issue. What I wrote was to show the discrepancy between arguments and the difference between products.

38 minutes ago, Skuva said:

And even treating the problem based on a unbased assumption, you still felt the need to invoke a straw man about radars.

Knowing well the general public entitlement, going as far as wanting discount for owning something released 14+ years ago. This is easily predicted.

Edited February 2 by Czar66
Extra quote not needed. Deleted.

[MAXsenna]

9 minutes ago, Skuva said:

Again, I believe if ED really wanted to make some easy money, they could well offer discount for owners of the FF version, there are numerous FF Tiger owners out there, wouldn't surprise me to know a fraction of them wished to either collect the FC version or just use it to play with the simplified systems, and a discount would motivate some of them to buy it. Now how much of a discount ED would need to accomplish a positive return from this tactic, only they can know that, I don't have their internal financial report here.

On this you're probably correct. While that's the other way compared to what you initially wrote. I do have a feeling most users already have FC3/2024.  

[Skuva]

31 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

On this you're probably correct. While that's the other way compared to what you initially wrote. I do have a feeling most users already have FC3/2024.  

For me the logic seems to apply upwards too. There are numerous FC2024 owners out there, there can be a significant portion of them who would look at a discounted F-5, F-86 or MiG-15 and go "hmmmm, I never thought about acquiring these, but this is a good opportunity". And doesn't matter if they buy by impulse and never even learn to fly it, ED can make revenue from that with the correct sale strategy.

EDIT: Even if ED would give a discount on the same value as the FC2024 upgrade, in the end they would still be using assets from a dead project brought to DCS basically for free to convince a non-zero amount of people to buy modules they most probably would never buy.

EDIT2: As an example of sale strategy I just thought using the F-15C and its upcoming FF. They could release the FF as any other module without a discount. Then, after all the people who really really wanted, and could, bought it, they could start giving discounts for the FC owners to push whoever was over the fence.

Edited February 2 by Skuva

[MAXsenna]

For me the logic seems to apply upwards too. There are numerous FC2024 owners out there, there can be a significant portion of them who would look at a discounted F-5, F-86 or MiG-15 and go "hmmmm, I never thought about acquiring these, but this is a good opportunity". And doesn't matter if they buy by impulse and never even learn to fly it, ED can make revenue from that with the correct sale strategy.
EDIT: Even if ED would give a discount on the same value as the FC2024 upgrade, in the end they would still be using assets from a dead project brought to DCS basically for free to convince a non-zero amount of people to buy modules they most probably would never buy.

Fine with me. I don't care one way or the other.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[Rudel_chw]

1 hour ago, MAXsenna said:

Who's gaslighting who?

 

who is this JSmith fella? seems he deleted his post ... maybe all the gaslighting was too much for him  

[PawlaczGMD]

Something like this is actually a good idea. The average player interested in a combat flight sim is probably expecting to do some air to air in a fast jet. What is offered for free is a slow Russian ground attack plane and an unarmed prop. DCS as a "free" game does not present its content very well. Yes you can do a trial, but I bet someone not already playing doesn't know that, and is not willing to figure out how to do it, they just want to play the "free" game to see if they like it.

[Pillowcat]

6 minutes ago, PawlaczGMD said:

probably expecting to do some air to air in a fast jet.

6 minutes ago, PawlaczGMD said:

DCS as a "free" game does not present its content very well

[MAXsenna]

36 minutes ago, Rudel_chw said:

 
who is this JSmith fella? seems he deleted his post ... maybe all the gaslighting was too much for him  

Account was two weeks old, and that was the first and only post.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

Edited February 2 by MAXsenna

[PawlaczGMD]

20 minutes ago, Pillowcat said:

My point is exactly that it's a poor financial decision by ED. A player reeled in by being gifted a $10 FC jet might spend hundreds on full fidelity modules. A player not excited by the Su-25 will drop the game.

[d0ppler]

2 hours ago, PawlaczGMD said:

My point is exactly that it's a poor financial decision by ED. A player reeled in by being gifted a $10 FC jet might spend hundreds on full fidelity modules. A player not excited by the Su-25 will drop the game.

Like what @draconus said: You can try every module in this game for free for 2 weeks (tm). 
And to be perfectly honest, any player not excited by the Su-25 isn't worthy of playing DCS . Such a gem