fixed Pilot always die when F/A-18C is hit by (any) missile

[ricnunes]

Greetings,

I own the F/A-18C module for DCS for quite a few years now and recently I started to play it again (now with DCS 2.9) and it's been a pleasant surprise since it has been quite improved since the last time that I played it. This with a basically single exception - which I think it always have been present - but now and since I didn't find any recent post regarding this issue, I decided to post and report it:

- Like the title says, everytime I get hit by any incoming missile the pilot is almost always killed and I have absolutely no chance to eject! This doesn't happen with any other aircraft that I have, like for example any of the Flaming Cliffs aircraft. For example in 102 times where I got shot down by enemy missiles while flying the F/A-18, I was only able to eject two (2) times and instantly got killed the other 100 times (I send here in attachment a picture of part of my pilot profile, showing this)!

So, this is:

1- In no way, realistic! If we look at these type of aircraft statistics like for example during Desert Storm then we can see that the majority of such type of aircraft shot down by enemy missiles (by both air-to-air and air-to-ground), the pilots were able to eject and the vast majority of these survived the ejection.

2- Any other aircraft that I know of in DCS don't exhibit such behavior.

As such, I'm asking the devs here to fix this issue. IMO, this is more important than meets the eye even because it's basically impossible for someone to play with the F/A-18C using a pilot profile with the "Invulnerable" option set to NO.

Perhaps a sort of a simplified/interim option/implementation to improve missile survivability when flying the F/A-18C could be implemented until a more definitive solution for this comes up?

Edited February 2 by ricnunes

[Tholozor]

I've taken plenty of missile hits and survived to either limp back to base or eject over the years. The impact direction/location and type of the missile will play a big part in determining if the pilot survives.

Edited February 2 by Tholozor

[ricnunes]

Well, but I don't. For instance, I've taken several missiles including from behind which shouldn't kill the pilot or at least be much harder to kill the pilot since the explosion is far from the cockpit but end result is always the same when an incoming missile hits the F/A-18C:

- "Pops-up" to external view, F/A-18 aircraft model becomes wingless (wings are ripped off) and pilot get "instant death". The image that I shared in my first post is very telling: From 102 times that I got shot down, only in 2 the pilot didn't die and I was able to eject. And I was also shot down by several different missiles, such as AA-7's, AA-10's, AA-11's, AA-12's, SA-8's, SA-15's, etc... and again, this never happens with any other DCS jet aircraft that I own.

Moreover and again, the diference is staggering between the F/A-18 and any other aircraft like for example the FC Mig-29. Actually, I just did an experiment to prove my point which consisted in the following:

- First in the Mission Editor, I placed two Mig-29's, mine (player) in front an enemy AI Mig-29 (which was just behind me), played the mission and the enemy AI Mig-29 shot a missile at me (an AA-11) and hit me from behind, the aircraft was shot down and started to spiral but I was able to eject. Then in the exact same scenario, I replaced my/player's Mig-29 with a F/A-18C, played the mission and again the enemy AI Mig-29 shot a missile at me (AA-11) like in my last try but once the missile hit my F/A-18 from behind the same "Pops-up" to external view, F/A-18 aircraft model becomes wingless (wings are ripped off) and pilot get "instant death" happened!

So, there's something going up with the F/A-18 regarding pilot survivability when the aircraft is hit by a missile. With guns everything is ok, indeed when in the F/A-18 when I get hit by gunfire everything I can either eject from the aircraft or limp back to base but with missiles it's almost NEVER the case. And this is not even something that may happen sometimes. It's something that happens ALL the times!

[Lord Vader]

Hello @ricnunes

It's all related to the points of impact, varying from case to case, mostly if you expose the cockpit to the blast, there's a strong chance the pilot won't survive, this is why it's important to manoeuvre correctly when being hunted by an AAM or SAM. 

Due to the randomness of how missiles or projectiles hit the aircraft, it's hard to make any analysis based only on what you're writing. Nor can we make fair comparisons like you do with other models, because of different structural designs and/or depth in their own design as a module. In fact, if you do want to compare the F/A-18C to other modules, like the F-16C, the survival record of the F/A-18C upon missile impact seems quite acceptable in our tests.

[ricnunes]

10 hours ago, Lord Vader said:

Hello @ricnunes

It's all related to the points of impact, varying from case to case, mostly if you expose the cockpit to the blast, there's a strong chance the pilot won't survive, this is why it's important to manoeuvre correctly when being hunted by an AAM or SAM. 

Due to the randomness of how missiles or projectiles hit the aircraft, it's hard to make any analysis based only on what you're writing. Nor can we make fair comparisons like you do with other models, because of different structural designs and/or depth in their own design as a module. In fact, if you do want to compare the F/A-18C to other modules, like the F-16C, the survival record of the F/A-18C upon missile impact seems quite acceptable in our tests.

First of all, greetings and thanks for your reply.

I can't speak for the DCS F-16 since I don't own it. But I can speak for any FC fighter jet aircraft (F-15C, Mig-29A/S and Su-27/33) and even for the A-10C, all which together with the F/A-18C are the jets (although the A-10C is not a fighter) which I own in DCS. But I wouldn't be surprised if DCS F-16 was affected by the same type of bug/issue but here I digress.

I'm also aware that if the missile hits the cockpit area then there's a strong chance the pilot won't survive or at least that should be the expected case, hence why in my last post I tested with scenarios where enemy would always shoot (heat-seeking) missiles from behind so that the tail part of the aircraft gets hit instead of the cockpit area. Anyway, I made two example scenarios/missions which I attach to this post, which are basically the same where an enemy Mig-29 armed with two AA-11's which starts roughly 3.5 nautical miles behind the player's aircraft. The only diference between the two scenarios/missions is that in one of them the player (also) flies a Mig-29 while in the other the player's aircraft is the F/A-18C. All that the player must do is to keep flying straight at a speed where the enemy Mig-29 (chasing from behind) can catch up and fire one of its AA-11 missiles and of course, do NOT perform any evasive maneuvers or use any countermeasures (Flares).

With the scenarios/missions mentioned above in mind, I flew 5 times each mission in a row and the end results were the following:

- When flying with the Mig-29, I survived 5 out of 5 times (survived 100% of the times) when I was hit by the enemy Mig-29 from behind with one AA-11 missile.

- When flying with the F/A-18C, I was killed 5 out of 5 times (survived 0% of the times) when I was hit by the enemy Mig-29 from behind with one AA-11 missile.

This is definitely NOT normal, as both aircraft (F/A-18 and Mig-29) are quite similar in terms of size and general shape.

 

I also tried the scenario above with another simple change: with the enemy (MIg-29) behind armed with 2 AA-8's (instead of AA-11's) which if I'm not mistaken is the least powerful air-to-air missile in DCS in terms of warhead (and therefore destructive power) and the results were the following:

-  When flying with the Mig-29, I survived 5 out of 5 times (survived 100% of the times) when I was hit by the enemy Mig-29 from behind with one AA-8 missile.

- When flying with the F/A-18C, I was killed 2 out of 5 times (survived 60% of the times) when I was hit by the enemy Mig-29 from behind with one AA-8 missile. 

The above (AA-8 scenario) wasn't that unexpected as the AA-8 is a much weaker missile than the AA-11 but at the same time the AA-11 warhead is not that powerful either, namely when compared to some other missiles and there's the abismal diference in survival rate between a F/A-18 and Mig-29 against the same AA-11 missile. And even against the AA-8, it's still very bad and unrealistic for the F/A-18C because in 2 out of 5 times the pilot didn't survive a quite weak missile (AA-8) when hit from behind and therefore far away from the cockpit.

One more thing that I observed from my last set of tests is that the F/A-18C pilot only manages to be able to eject when and only when the aircraft after being hit by the enemy missile still retains some form of controllability (i.e. some control surfaces still work). When all and every F/A-18 control surfaces are damaged then this equates in the game to the "Pop-up to external view, F/A-18 aircraft model becomes wingless (wings are ripped off) and pilot get instant death" situation. I say this because and looking in hindsight, this was exactly what happened to me during the other 2 times were I survived in the F/A-18C which I reported in my first post of this thread. With the Mig-29 (or any other FC aircraft) when the aircraft has absolutely no controllability (no control surface works) after being hit then the pilot still has a chance to eject. 

As such, I urge you to test my examples and I'm 100% sure (and I'm rarely 100% sure of anything in life!) that you'll end up reaching the exact same conclusion as I did.

Missile_Test_Mig29_FA18.miz Missile_Test_Mig29_Mig29.miz

Edited February 3 by ricnunes

[SharpeXB]

I can hardly recall ever just being damaged by any missile when flying the Hornet. It always seems like I’m killed. In the M-2000C it’s much more probable to be just damaged. Or so it seems. I’ve never done any sort of testing though so who’s to say if anything’s wrong. 

[BIGNEWY]

Hello.

We have tested them and others and we are not seeing any issue, it is performing as expected. 

thank you 

 

[ricnunes]

7 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Hello.

We have tested them and others and we are not seeing any issue, it is performing as expected. 

thank you 

 

So you're saying that when playing the F/A-18C scenario that everytime (100% of the times) you get hit from behind you don't get killed while with the Mig-29 in the same scenario you'll survive 100% of the times??

Or, if you're having the same results as I then why would this be an expected performance? Do you believe the Mig-29 is a "fully armored" aircraft while the F/A-18 is "made of paper"?

Don't get me wrong but that's extremely hard to believe (and I'm not the only one noticing this).

21 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

I can hardly recall ever just being damaged by any missile when flying the Hornet. It always seems like I’m killed. In the M-2000C it’s much more probable to be just damaged. Or so it seems. I’ve never done any sort of testing though so who’s to say if anything’s wrong. 

Yes, that's basically what I've been trying to say.

Please, feel free to try the scenarios that I shared above (you can even edit and change the player's aircraft) and test. I strongly believe that anyone reach a simple conclusion with them.

Edited February 4 by ricnunes

[SharpeXB]

In my logbook

Hornet:  
Deaths 438  
Ejections 42 = 9.5%

M-2000C  
Deaths 102  
Ejections 52  = 51%

Big difference. 

 

[SharpeXB]

On 2/4/2025 at 3:08 AM, BIGNEWY said:

We have tested them and others and we are not seeing any issue, it is performing as expected. 

Does your testing reproduce anything like the statistics above? Those seem to reveal the problem quite clearly. 

[ricnunes]

17 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

In my logbook

Hornet:  
Deaths 438  
Ejections 42 = 9.5%

M-2000C  
Deaths 102  
Ejections 52  = 51%

Big difference. 

 

Yes, that's very telling indeed. Thanks for sharing your logbook records!

Please, tell me one more thing: During those 42 ejections of yours in the Hornet, do you remember if you still had some degree of control over the aircraft just before ejecting?
(note that I'm not asking if you could bring back of land the aircraft. I'm only asking if at least one of the control surfaces of the Hornet still worked after you've being hit and survived in the Hornet)

[ruxtmp]

Since owning the F-18 module any missile hit from any angle the damage is very binary for me. Either the missile hits and it is instant pilot kill or it hits and there is only minor damage that has near zero effect on aircraft performance and systems. Occasionally the radar and HUD are INOP. I dont think I ever ejected from a hornet except just to mess around or quit a game.

Edited February 8 by ruxtmp

[ruxtmp]

I wish we could see system failures occurring as a result of damage or a cascade of issues happening as systems relying on each other fail. This would require one to know the emergency procedures and apply them properly to mitigate or reduce the impact of the damage as you nurse the jet back to friendly territory hopefully making it before you have to eject.

[Czar66]

On 2/4/2025 at 8:29 PM, SharpeXB said:

In my logbook

Hornet:  
Deaths 438  
Ejections 42 = 9.5%

M-2000C  
Deaths 102  
Ejections 52  = 51%

Big difference. 

 

I'm seeing the same discrepancy with the Hornet against all my jet modules.

F-15E, F-16C, F-14A&B, F-4E, A-10C, M-2000C.

[BIGNEWY]

I have asked the team to review this internally. 

thank you