Why is tanker in constant bank and unstable altitude in precontact

[Yurgon]

1 hour ago, AndyJWest said:

trying to connect to a tanker that is waiting for a 'ready pre-contact' message, preventing the sim from connecting at all. This is immensely frustrating if you don't understand what is going on, and unnecessary.

There's the additional issue that the tanker will sometimes call "Return pre-contact", yet the receiver is still cleared to proceed with the next contact. It sometimes happens and is certainly a bit confusing.

In the recent tracks, I've seen OP call "Ready pre-contact" a dozen times in a row after clearly receiving "Cleared contact" from the tanker, so an apparent lack of basic understanding doesn't make it any easier.

1 hour ago, AndyJWest said:

Added to that, I've seen comments from more than one person with real-world AAR experience that is is actually more difficult in DCS

Yup, I've heard the same and assume that's truly the case.

Thank goodness there are wonderful documentaries and Youtube videos of real life fighter pilot trainees who struggle. A lot. These are pilots with a decent amount of training and experience, with instructor pilots watching their every move, with a solid understanding of the process, and most notably we talk about pilots who've had dozens of hours of recent formation flying experience - and they still struggle with AAR.

Contrast that with DCS pilots who are all over the sky. They can't even hold altitude on their own, let alone hold position off the wing of another aircraft. OP is a prime example of not doing the homework, not putting in the hard work of learning basic aircraft handling and then formation flying first, he actively rejects any single bit of advice given to him, and somehow expects to be able to perform one of the hardest tasks in all of aviation on a home computer. That's just not how it works.

When we say "It should be easier in real life", I assume we're talking about minutiae. I strongly believe players who can't refuel in DCS wouldn't be able to do it in a true-to-life simulator either, unless they put in dozens of hours. Which, as OP is living proof of, is also the only thing that'll make it work in DCS - putting in the hard work, practicing, pushing through obstacles and overcoming them. It just takes time and effort. We've all been there.

[SharpeXB]

11 minutes ago, AndyJWest said:

The radio message is simple enough, the first time you send it. But how is a beginner supposed to know that getting comms from the tanker during unsuccessful attempts to connect means that you may have to send 'ready pre-contact' again?

Watch a tutorial. It’s pretty clear in any of the instructions I saw, it’s almost self-explanatory. If someone attempts this without looking at any instructions then that’s their problem, not the game. 

15 minutes ago, AndyJWest said:

Like so many things in DCS, it requires the poor beginner to read three forum threads, the official manual (inevitably out of date), and Chuck's Guide, and then watch two YouTube videos before they can even figure out what they are supposed to be doing. 

DCS is a complex sim. If a player isn’t willing to do this sort of dive into the information, why are they bothering with AAR at all? This is a rather advanced skill and honestly not necessary in order to play the vast majority of missions and gameplay modes. Again lack of willingness to learn or practice is a player induced problem. 
 

[AndyJWest]

Hiding away essential information in tutorials made by third parties has absolutely nothing to do with air combat simulation.

 

[SharpeXB]

7 minutes ago, AndyJWest said:

Hiding away essential information in tutorials made by third parties has absolutely nothing to do with air combat simulation.

It’s not hidden

[MAXsenna]

46 minutes ago, AndyJWest said:

The radio message is simple enough, the first time you send it. But how is a beginner supposed to know that getting comms from the tanker during unsuccessful attempts to connect means that you may have to send 'ready pre-contact' again?

It's a good question, and to be honest I don't remember how I figured it out. I'd started using VAICOM before I ever did attempt AAR, so was accustomed to speaking with the SIM, so I probably told it that I was "ready pre-contact" after it told me to return to pre-contact.  

2 hours ago, AndyJWest said:

Something that probably needs to be said here, amongst a whole lot of posts which - some more politely than others - basically amount to 'you aren't doing it right' and 'get good'

To be fair, OP has a pretty long record of not following advice, and STILL people jump in en masse to give advice.

47 minutes ago, AndyJWest said:

As for bugs, at least one has come up in this thread - with the Harrier, it is entirely possible to get 'break away' comms from the tanker, while making a perfectly good approach to the probe. This is almost certainly due to the safe approach limits being set up for the F/A 18, which has the probe in an entirely different location.

Well, the Harrier is not made by ED, and to complicate further, only the KC-130 gives me that warning for more than one module. Aaand, some user told me that the KC-130 is an asset made by Razbam that came for free in the Core WITH the Harrier's release.

51 minutes ago, AndyJWest said:

Frankly though, whether all this counts as 'bugs' or not is beside the point. It is counterintuitive, and poorly documented. Like so many things in DCS, it requires the poor beginner to read three forum threads,

Or in the manual? To be honest, one of these days I might read it myself. By that I mean the Core DCS manual. Which took me two years to learn about, and its location. Now THAT should have been easier.  

[DmitriKozlowsky]

So somehow I managed to pull off good AAR with AV-8B and KC-130. THis is a end to end mission. From cold start,  rendeivous, join, observe pos, pre-contact, contact, breakaway, re-contact, take gas, clear tanker, some AG gunnery, recover. X-wind landing on Nellis 21L could have been better

Noticed that despite setting tanker TACAN at 33X, then tuning to it in A:A TCN mode, 33X ON, that tanker TCN symbol did not appear on left MFD. Otherwise no drama.

I used that day's METAR data from METAR-TAF  to set up weather at Nellis. In browser just type METAR Las Vegas or METAR Nellis.

TRK has civlian and military traffic, and uses Civilian Aircraft mod for ambient air traffic.

Lessons learned. KC-130 is awfully sensitive to closure rate on basket, and will "Breakaway" call. Just "Ready Pre-Contact" and continue .  Real world planning requires joining tanker at 500 feet below , behind, and 500 to side of tanker altitude/pos. Well according to the former F-15E pilot with bushy mustache on YouTUbe. Who now flies A320 ATP.

AV_8B_goodAAR.trk

[Northstar98]

3 hours ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

Lessons learned. KC-130 is awfully sensitive to closure rate on basket, and will "Breakaway" call. Just "Ready Pre-Contact" and continue .

Glad to hear it and yes, I constantly get a breakaway call when joining the KC-130, I usually just ignore it unless the tanker takes evasive action that it doesn't need to take. Hopefully though you will develop an expected sight picture without needing to look at the basket and find references that work for you (of course references, particularly those used for vertical positioning are more likely to vary, as they'll change with your AoA (which will depend on speed, your weight, altitude etc). But over time, with enough practice you should be able to find something that gets you where you need to be, even if only roughly.

[MAXsenna]

3 hours ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

So somehow I managed to pull off good AAR with AV-8B and KC-130.

Whoa! Excellent! Congratulations!

That was quick! For everyone reading this discussion. It can be done.

[DmitriKozlowsky]

5 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

Glad to hear it and yes, I constantly get a breakaway call when joining the KC-130, I usually just ignore it unless the tanker takes evasive action that it doesn't need to take. Hopefully though you will develop an expected sight picture without needing to look at the basket and find references that work for you (of course references, particularly those used for vertical positioning are more likely to vary, as they'll change with your AoA (which will depend on speed, your weight, altitude etc). But over time, with enough practice you should be able to find something that gets you where you need to be, even if only roughly.

I don't want to get ahead of myself. Untill I can do it 5X in a row, under varying weather, night, and stores, I really can't claim success. I am still not really able to stay connected. I stretch the hose (gigitty), which disconnects. Try as I may, to have that small amolunt of sag in connected hose, while connected, is a witch with capital B. Yes, re-re-rewatching Stealth (2005) scene where EDI plugs into basketless hose, flundering in the wind, is a CGI joke! That really is not possible. Even for a Q-CPU AI pilot.

Watching Brazilian Air Force AMX on YT, and seeing the basket getting ripped, or hose pulled out of pod, does  not fill me with confidence. AMX is one of those minor types  I would not mind in DCS from 3rd party.Its low tech and old enough to e completely declassified, so the flight model and systems can be DCS level.

I dunno if DCS suppourts hose getting ripped out. But think about this. Lets say four ship joins up on KC-130 or another drogue tanker. One of the pods is INOP. The first guy plugs in. Connect goes south, and basket gets ripped off, or whole hose gets relased. What then for the flight? Now the whole flight can't get from tha ttanker. How popular is that guy conna be?

[MAXsenna]

3 hours ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

I am still not really able to stay connected. I stretch the hose (gigitty), which disconnects. Try as I may, to have that small amolunt of sag in connected hose

You just have to work the throttle more, constantly!