Control Curves

[Caldera]

Hey All,

So as I am fighting my way back into learning the Apache, where I have forgotten quite allot.  I have added a MOZA AB9 to the mix.  Getting the MOZA to work was an afternoon of time, as I am not sharpest tool in the shed when it comes to this stuff.  I am also using Thrustmaster Pendulum Rudder Peddles with the springs removed and a dampner installed.

I got to wondering what others are using under settings for "AH-64D Special Trimmer Mode" and "Control Options Axis Commands".

 

AH-64D Special Trimmer Mode 

There are three options:

Instant Trim (FFB friendly)

Central Position Mode

Joystick / Pedals without springs and FFB

 

Obviously, Joystick / Pedals without springs and FFB is the most logical choice.  But I did try the MOZA on "Instant Trim (FFB friendly)".  This worked weirdly to say the least.  When I pressed the "Force Trim/Hold Mode switch - R/UP" the MOZA would go that trim position then pop back some distance toward the center of axis. 

FFB Friendly?

The terminology that ED uses at times can get confusing...

 

Control Options Axis Commands

Initially, I put custom curve values in of 20 using the "Curvature" slider on both the rudder peddles and the MOZA.  This was because my brain was still in the mode for spring return to center type controllers.  As this is how I had been doing it prior when using "Instant Trim (FFB friendly)" with my older joystick and springs in the rudder pedals. 

I found control more difficult than before...

Then it dawned on me that with my current hardware configuration, I was running on the steep parts of the curve as the MOZA and my rudder pedals were now primarily positioned not in the center.  So I ended up setting the "Curvature" back to zero on both.

My current axis curve settings for the MOZA are default.   I changed "Saturation X" value to 80 for the rudder peddles, which really steepens the curve.  However, both have zero for Curvature and both curves are linear.

 

Interested in knowing how others are running their curves?

Thanks in advance,

Caldera

 

 

 

 

Edited March 29 by Caldera

[MAXsenna]

1 hour ago, Caldera said:

Instant Trim (FFB friendly)

This is the correct one for FFB, (the third one actually means without springs and without FFB). 

If trimming is strange, click on the Moza column and click FFB tuning. Then try swap axis, and see if its better. Some user reports this, and I had to it with my MS FFB2 in EVERY module.

Pedals for you will of course be the third option. Play with the curve if you like it. Personally I don't use curves with my Slaw pedals.

Whatever you do! Do not add curves/saturation to your Moza. That WILL mess up things with any FFB device in DCS. Maybe that's the strange trimming you experienced. 

Cheers!  

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

1 hour ago, Caldera said:

Interested in knowing how others are running their curves?

None. Obviously for FFB deadzones, curves and saturation settings are a big no-no.
For the pedals I use a deadzone of 2 (to counter a bit of slack in the centre of my TPR pedals) with 0 curves and normal (100) saturation on X and Y.

[Leg2ion]

2 hours ago, Caldera said:

Central Position Mode

For cyclic, and

2 hours ago, Caldera said:

Joystick / Pedals without springs and FFB

for yaw - even though my pedals have springs - but no issue keeping pedals steady as very weak springs fitted.

I have set custom curves for yaw (when AH was first release due to twitchiness and in the process of experimenting after the recent patch - so may just set them back to default), but will have to check for cyclic.

Edited March 29 by Leg2ion

[corbu1]

Can‘t speak for the Moza, but I use the VP Rhino FFB.

Instant Trim (FFB friendly) is the correct trim function. 
Don‘t use any curves/ saturation or anything else for FFB devices.

For your pedals with spring removed and damper added use trim method Joystick / Pedals without springs and FFB

 

Do you have FFB correct enabled in misc tab of DCS settings menu?

Edited March 30 by corbu1

[jda8818]

I obtained the AH-64D very recently, and was wondering why my trim inputs were making the aircraft less stable rather than easier to fly with pedal match up, less force required, etc.  Well, it's because I had curvatures (fixed wing habit) in my axis tune configs.  Under these circumstances (read helicopter) trim actions put your inputs out on the sensitive part of the input curve (steep in this case) and you have a bucking bronco on your hands.  

So my AH-64D 'curves' are now linear.  Less slope as necessary with Y axis saturation (70) and maybe a unit or two of deadzone.  But Curvature at zero (0).  Lo and behold I can fly this beast. 

Winwing stick with short extension (light spring return to center); Thrustmaster TPR rudder pedals (Stock - return to center springs) and both Trimmer Modes set to "INSTANT TRIM (FFB FRIENDLY)".   One second rather than an instantaneous trim re-position (as in Kiowa) would be better but it is what it is.

Night and Day.

jda8818

 

            

Edited March 31 by jda8818
Clarification

[Caldera]

Thanks for all replies!

Some how the MOZA seemed to be working in the "Joystick without springs and FFB" mode.  I have no clue really why.  Some developer will chuckle at the confusion over some text descriptions that make perfect sense to that very developer.

I did however, switch to the "Instant Trim (FFB friendly)" mode.  Confusing, as this is the same mode I used with my old joystick.  

Seems to work better and the pop to the center direction seems to have vanished. Now it just pops to the place I have reset the trim to.  I have had to re-tune some MOZA settings and I am still working through that.  But so far I am loving it, and I am glad I made the MOZA purchase.

Caldera

[Caldera]

jda,

I just read your post, I mostly alway used "Instant Trim (FFB friendly)" mode, because "Central Position Trimmer" mode requires you to return the joystick to center before it will re-recognize any control input.  Until you do, the controls don't work.  But the transfer is entirely bumpless using that mode, which can be an advantage in some cases.  I crashed allot until I got this in my head. 

Instant Trim, while not perfect, at least never removes all control.  But it may cause a bobble or two until you get the hang of it.  The best advice is to make many very small trim adjustments in this mode.  I had always thought that a hybrid mode between the two would also be a good choice.

There is  talk of forced trim (videos) that is/are endless about the Apache. 

Caldera

Edited March 30 by Caldera

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

3 hours ago, Caldera said:

confusion over some text descriptions

I really don't understand why there would be confusion, as the descriptions - to me at least - are perfectly clear:
- If you have FFB pick Instant Trim (it says "FFB friendly" for a reason);
- If you have a normal springloaded joystick, pick either Instant Trim or Central Position Trimmer Mode depending on personal preference (though the latter might as well be removed since using that is a really bad idea for a multitude of reasons);
- If you have a cyclic that has neither springs nor FFB (such as the Pro Flight Trainer Puma), pick Joystick Without Springs and FFB (it does exactly what it says it does).

[MAXsenna]

31 minutes ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

I really don't understand why there would be confusion, as the descriptions - to me at least - are perfectly clear:
- If you have FFB pick Instant Trim (it says "FFB friendly" for a reason);

I believe the confusion comes from that the older helicopter modules don't have "FFB friendly" in the description, and "without springs and FFB" is probably incorrectly translated from Russian. Or it might be just laziness, as the devs probably didn't have FFB at the time. It doesn't help that other FFB users on this forum recommend to use "without springs and FFB". I would recommend that ED clarify the difference between the two modes, (because in some modules I can't really tell the difference myself, while l know the default is the correct one for FFB), and change the description for clarity, in ALL helicopter modules. 

@Caldera Happy it works for you now.

For everyone! In DCS you can't use curves with FFB. So don't recommend your curves if an FFB user asks for advice.  

Cheers! 

[Floyd1212]

1 hour ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

- If you have a cyclic that has neither springs nor FFB (such as the Pro Flight Trainer Puma), pick Joystick Without Springs and FFB (it does exactly what it says it does).

So you are saying this should be “Joystick Without Springs or FFB”?

That sounds like one change they could make to make things clearer. 

[MAXsenna]

So you are saying this should be “Joystick Without Springs or FFB”?
That sounds like one change they could make to make things clearer. 

Yes! A base with neither springs nor FFB. It has to be a bad translation. Is very clear when you see the options in the Apache. Because the first choice is "FFB friendly", whatever setting is "unfriendly".
I was told this years ago when I first got FFB, and it made sense. Because why would you have a choice without springs but with FFB, if there is no choice without either?

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[Caldera]

Hey all,

After more experimenting and I might be crazy, but I can't tell any difference in how the MOZA reacts in Instant Trim (FFB friendly) mode or Joystick / Pedals without springs and FFB mode.  Just the same?

But..

I am having another problem that I could use an answer for.  When I set forced trim I am not quite getting the response I anticipated.  These pictures are using Instant Trim (FFB friendly) mode, but it seems the same in both modes.

This is the default after trim reset.

This is with force trim held and the cyclic pushed all the way forward.

This is when, after releasing force trim, I release the cyclic.

Notice how the greyed box moves down as does the cyclic.  For some reason I had thought that the greyed box and hence the cyclic should center more or less on the red X.  It is not working that way for me.  Even though the red X always marks where forced trim was released.  The stick always pops down to this new position and thus becoming the center of the new trimmed position.

If I pull the cyclic back, the behavior is the same.  If I move it to the left or right there is still some of this effect, but much less pronounced.

This the way it is supposed to work?

 

Thanks in advance,

Caldera

 

 

[UncleStains]

Do you have any curves set on your axis controls setup? Curves are generally incompatible with FFB and this sounds like what happens when you try to use curves.

[Caldera]

I have this curve for both x and y cyclic.

I am just trying to calm the cyclic control down a bit.  I had the same thing happen to me when the Saturation Y was 100%.

Caldera

[admiki]

Nope, FFB controls need 100% to work as they should.

You want more precision, put an extension on your physical control.

But......most FFB controls have their own software running at the same time. You also need to check how that is set.

TL;DR is- you want 1:1 movement of your physical and game control.

[Caldera]

Yep! 

That was it.  The reason that the Y axis jumped back about 50% is because I had the Saturation Y value at 50%, while I actually had the X axis Saturation Y value at 75%.  Confusing, because the stick worked fine for control, until I used force trim.  Which seemed to confuse DCS.

So if I a reading right, the DCS curves need to all stay 100% and linear.  If I want to change modify them use the MOZA software?

Caldera

[Floyd1212]

8 minutes ago, Caldera said:

If I want to change modify them use the MOZA software?

Yes, if there is a way to reduce the saturation in the Moza software, that might work, but DCS needs to be configured for 100% saturation.

[Kh4]

On 4/26/2025 at 1:19 AM, Caldera said:

Hey all,

After more experimenting and I might be crazy, but I can't tell any difference in how the MOZA reacts in Instant Trim (FFB friendly) mode or Joystick / Pedals without springs and FFB mode.  Just the same?

But..

I am having another problem that I could use an answer for.  When I set forced trim I am not quite getting the response I anticipated.  These pictures are using Instant Trim (FFB friendly) mode, but it seems the same in both modes.

This is the default after trim reset.

This is with force trim held and the cyclic pushed all the way forward.

This is when, after releasing force trim, I release the cyclic.

Notice how the greyed box moves down as does the cyclic.  For some reason I had thought that the greyed box and hence the cyclic should center more or less on the red X.  It is not working that way for me.  Even though the red X always marks where forced trim was released.  The stick always pops down to this new position and thus becoming the center of the new trimmed position.

If I pull the cyclic back, the behavior is the same.  If I move it to the left or right there is still some of this effect, but much less pronounced.

This the way it is supposed to work?

 

Thanks in advance,

Caldera

 

 

Page 27 of the AH-64D Early Access guide is what you need
The blue boundary indicators will only appear when you have a hold mode applied.

FWIW, I have to assign the force trim release control in DCS to the same button as the hardware force trim in the Moza app, else the force trim position (the red X ) won't realign.