Trim in its' current incantation

[Ebodee]

I will be honest, ED, the Lock-on style of trim for the Sukhoi and MiG in my opinion was most practical. Obviously the trim system was independent of the control stick and allowed for specific trimming of any control surface as desired. In the case for the Eagle and Thunderbolt II, the stick and trim were integrated so any movement of stick translated to movement of trim.

 

I would even go for an integrated cyclic/trim system because in my opinion the DCS:BS method of trim is cumbersome. Even with the proposed changes to be released in the first patch, I think there should be consideration of reverting to or allowing the option of Lock-on style trim.

 

I just do not like the DCS:BS trim system. From undesired and near fatal destruction of the helicopter at high speed in the presence of turbulence and wind - actually happened recently as the rotors hugged each other after trim input followed by control whiplash, to delays in smooth transition to a hover using the trim system, to unnecessary control input (I term control whiplash) when centering up for an unguided weapons release using the trim system.

 

When holding down 'T' and moving my cyclic forward to make stabilizing the 50 before lift-off to a hover, there is a significant rocker effect (control whiplash) between achieving the desired trim and releasing the controls to neutral position. I am finding that most of the undesired control quality comes from the trimming system (autopilot flight director out to lunch).

 

If I was able to preset the trim in the simulation independent of the cyclic, I could avoid this. The keyboard input from the arrow and 'z' and 'x' keys in a sense performs a rather rough measure of trim and is nice in hover to clean up any undesired movement without the use of the trim system. However, keyboard input is impractical at significant speeds and just leaves me desiring an old style trim system.

 

Realism or not, I think metrics weighs heavy in my mind and I just can't reckon with the current trim system. Would there be any interest in providing what I ask above? Is there even a way to do what I desire in the sim and I simply have not found a way yet?

Edited August 8, 2009 by Ebodee

[VMFA117_Poko]

But trimming aircraft and trimming helicopter are two differnet things. To feel how it should be you will need to buy a proper ffb stick.

[Ebodee]

But trimming aircraft and trimming helicopter are two differnet things. To feel how it should be you will need to buy a proper ffb stick.

 

The present system of trim in DCS:BS is to hold down a button while moving the cyclic and/or rudder pedals where desired. This of course simulating holding down the trimmer button on the cyclic and then moving the cyclic where desired in the real helicopter.

 

But as has been pointed out before, "simulating" this is more difficult based upon the way ED programmed it and the undesired control whiplash between releasing 'T' and centering the stick. I think even allowing more time to center the stick rather than decoupling the trim form the cyclic for the sake of applicability would make the act of trimming easier especially allowing one to freely move the cyclic and fly the helo while trimming.

 

Either way, I just hope this can be addressed before the patch.

[joey45]

it is AFAIK. Have a read of the read me in thread if you want...

[VMFA117_Poko]

I think even allowing more time to center the stick rather than decoupling the trim form the cyclic for the sake of applicability would make the act of trimming easier especially allowing one to freely move the cyclic and fly the helo while trimming.

In the new method' date=' control input is disabled until the player returns the controls to their neutral position. This allows the player to re-center his controls smoothly, minimizing unwanted control input.[/quote']

A lot of discussion we had here on the forum about this issue...

[joey45]

the search function does work on this site..

 

Look in these threads >

 

DCS: Black Shark User FAQ

 

Sticky Threads Directory - New Members Read First!

 

and thats without the search function

 

EDIT: I just saw im over 1000 posts

Edited August 8, 2009 by joey45

[GGTharos]

The trim isn't getting reverted to what LOFC had.

 

Use the search function and you'll probably find what you want. ;)

[VMFA117_Poko]

Maybe this will help (don't know if you have seen this Ebodee):

 

 

or this:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=568724&postcount=17

Edited August 8, 2009 by Poko24

[Ebodee]

Ok maybe none of you get the point of this post but thank you Tharos for chiming in as you would understand ED decision making more than I. I am simply too used to decoupled trim in Lock-on and quite honestly did not understand why the user could not have this as an option for DCS:BS. Maybe it is something that can be thrown in last minute.

 

I am not totally dissatisfied with DCS:BS trim implementation but simply do not like the idea of moving my cyclic around to find a "desired" trim position, centering it, then resuming flight. I usually have to iterate the trim several times to what I desire and some times I loose accuracy altogether or just spend time messing with the trimmer rather than flying.

 

To get around what I see as a clumsy way of simulating trim in the real

helicopter, I would just like a way to decouple the trim off the cyclic. If anything, it would help fine tune the cyclic position. But whatever, whether ED sees a suggestion for improvement or not, this is still the best simulation of a Russian coax since Razorworks C. vs H. :pilotfly:peace!

[EinsteinEP]

I am simply too used to decoupled trim in Lock-on and quite honestly did not understand why the user could not have this as an option for DCS:BS. Maybe it is something that can be thrown in last minute.

<sarcasm>Sure, and, while they're at it, maybe they can add an RWR, an active radar, and air-to-air missiles! Ooo, and what about Super-Pursuit Mode?</sarcasm>

 

DCS stands for Digital Combat Simulator. The developers have, to the best of their ability, created a simulation of the Kamov 50 helicopter system. Any complaints you may have with the design and function of the helicopter itself should be directed to the Kamov Design Bureau, not the good folks at Eagle Dynamics.

 

Sorry for dragging out the soapbox, but, as a simulation enthusiast (as opposed to an arcade gamer) I get tired of reading posts that knock ED for modeling the helicopter system CORRECTLY.

 

Great job, developers! I am very much looking forward to your next accurate simulation product!

Edited August 9, 2009 by EinsteinEP
(typos, doh!)

[Rhino4]

@ Einstein: Technically it's only "correct" if you have a ffb stick. If you don't then it's still unrealistic. His main complaint (if I'm reading it right) is the undesired doubling of trim after the button is pressed - What he terms "control whiplash". And while he won't get his lockon-style-trim wish, his main problems should be corrected with the addition of the upcoming patch. Until then he'll need to learn to recenter his control inputs quickly just like the rest of us...

 

But I don't see any reason for snide sarcasm...Even GG, whose answers to "new-people-who-ask-for-unrealistic-things" on the forums are usually noticeably short and to the point (and always including a ;)) wasn't downright rude...

[Ovenmit]

I have no problem with the trim functionality at all... and my stick isn't even ffb..

[Kurtz]

The Whiplash, or doubling effect is only there if you dont recentre both cyclic and rudder after trim input. Im quite used to it now using an X52pro and Saitek Pedals. The patch contains a varied trim option though if I read correctly for those who cant come to terms with the current build.

 

Ideally there would be a reasonable quality FFB stick on the market for flying this game, but there is not, nor is there FFB pedals.

 

Its still a first class sim regardless :)

[VMFA117_Poko]

(...) Ideally there would be a reasonable quality FFB stick on the market for flying this, but there is not, nor is there FFB pedals.

But there is quality FFB stick on the way:

HOTAS Logitech G940

 

Ebodee, I think you don't get why the trimming is made this way. With FFB stick you won't have to recenter the stick. After pressing the trim controller will stay tipped in position and that will be its new center. If you take the hands off the controller will be back to that tipped position. This is exacly how it works in real helicopter!

 

In non-FFB stick you have to recenter the stick 'cuz its spring has only ability to center in the middle. You have to learn this way or buy yourself a ffb controller.

 

Why do you want TOTALLY unrealistic LockOn-Style trimming in the helicopter???? This style will come only for A-10 in next DCS module.

[Ovenmit]

Im going to be getting that soon... I work in IT/Web Dev/Programming and my boss likes to get us "toys" at the end of the year. We might each get one of those.

 

We usually end each day with a blackshark mission.

[Oldflyer2]

my ideas on the trim system.

 

Although I have now achieved a good level of skill on trimming the aircraft. I mapped it to my throttle control just like the real bird.

 

I for one as in the video on trim (link in above thread) try to trim only once at takeoff to get a good hover control.

 

Now for my question!

 

Why other than the obvious reasons that I will list below should one have to trim out of that now new centered position?

 

1. Wind conditions possibly

2. Weight distribution such as fuel, payload changes etc.

3. Not wanting to hold the stick in a foward flight postion as not to get tired. or do other tasks. Or I'm just in a Lazy mood!...LOL

 

Now with that said. and my understanding that this is a rather heavy bird.

 

Why should it not come back to some degree of level flight due to gravity, to the point where I have trimmed it? Or is this whole sytem some sort of floating mechanism?

 

What I find happening after some heavy combat flying, is that the heli is in every position but centered where I put it to start with. And I seem to always have to be trimming this thing.

 

Now maybe it's My controls and it might be. because that seems to be the first thing that happens in this forum But!

 

Now let me say agian what I have been told so many times. This is a very Heavy bird, 8+ Metric Tons. I would think not that influenced by minor weight changes. (to a limit of course)

 

I seem to get a heli that is flying sideways hanging to the left or right. Or with alot of sideslip (yaw angles), and other undesireable attributes.

 

Whats moving? I get the feeling that The whole linkage or cyclic swashplate system is changing.

 

If one trims into a good hover state. stick centered. should it not come back to a relative point of that initial trim point?

 

I find in some cases I have to throw some really wild opposite control inputs into this thing to get it to turn and manuever where I want it to go.

 

It never really centers again. Untill I let it all settle down with some long level flight. And then somehow by the time I get back to the base. I wind up trimming right back to that original point!

 

Now I know it's all my fault or will be, but has anyone else noticed this type of apparent movement in the whole Cyclic control system?

[GGTharos]

Your aircraft is out of trim the moment you change speed or attitude, or change collective. It's nothing but nature taking its course. Changing speed will change the yaw force, the lifting force, and possibly center of lift, just to give one example - in other words, your trim setting is no longer valid for that flight attitude. It is only valid for the attitude you trimmed for.

 

And no, the helicopter won't come back to that trim point. That's not how it works. I suggest you review your 'trimming skill' ... you must -constantly- trim, not just a single trim to hover from takeoff. ;)

[Oldflyer2]

ok then

 

Now we are getting somewhere. So your saying that if I trim at take off, to get a good stable hover. then push my cyclic forward a bit and go down the runway a few yards.

 

then let my cyclic center again! I will not come back to a hover? if that's the case. what moved? something had to change. my trim center point or something. your saying that the swashplate and linkage goes to some other centerpoint. if so why?

 

I do not know of any other helicopter swashplate or cylic system that does that. And if the Ka-50 does. why?

[joey45]

then let my cyclic center again! I will not come back to a hover?

you haven't trimed for forward flight.

 

I do not know of any other helicopter swashplate or cylic system that does that. And if the Ka-50 does. why?

remember that it's a coaxail not conventaul heli.

[EtherealN]

"What moved" is you. If you trim for a stable hover, that trim is valid until you change anything. When you push cyclic to get forward speed your trim will quite obviously not be valid for that airspeed (since it was made for a hover), but it is also not an autopilot so it won't make your helicopter revert to a hover all by itself. All it'll do is recenter to where the controls where when you trimmed it for your hover, which is not the necessary inputs for getting into a hover again.

 

If, after you have gained some forward airspeed, you want to get back into a hover what you do is you bring the helicopter to a stable hover yourself - and then trim to maintain that hover.

 

Anytime you change anything you will have reason to trim again.

[AlphaOneSix]

It will come back to a hover, but it will take a while. And by "a while" I don't mean a few seconds, I mean it may take several minutes, depending on your speed. Imagine a table, a very large table, with a ball on top of it...let's say it's a 10-ton ball. With the table level, and the ball not moving, we will call that your stable, trimmed hover. Tilt the table (like moving the cyclic) and the ball rolls. Move the table back to level. How long will it take for a 10-ton ball to stop rolling? A long, long, time.

 

Every good helicopter control analogy should include a reference ot a ball on a table, if you ask me. ;)

[EtherealN]

Best analogy ever. :D

 

Another one would be when you're on your bicycle - if you practice it's possible to balance it upright while not moving. Then you pedal a bit to get some speed, and then you stop pedalling. It'll be a while before it is once again stopped. Even longer if it's a 10-ton bicycle. :P

 

But the key really is that the trim just resets the centrepoint for your stick and pedals, so when released they'll stay fixed where you trimmed them. And of course, the control input for maintaining a hover aren't the same as transitioning into a hover. It's not an advanced computer system that reads your airspeed, groundspeed and attitude and remembers those as your desire and then does whatever is needed to get "back" there when you change something. All it does is change a few springs and such to give your controls a new centrepoint that happened to be the one you had when you released the trim button.

 

At least that's my understanding of it.

[Oldflyer2]

thank you AlphaOneSix

 

I was thinking there for a while that I was being handed a Load! I know I might have to pull it out of it's forward momentum to get back to the speed I trimmed for at hover. but it better come back to the trim point I set.

 

If not, then somthing did move. and that would have to be hydraulic set points on the rams and or the linkage to the swashplates.

 

Otherwise you would constantly be chasing the ball. Or the bubble as I know that term is used as well for vertical takeoff aircraft. such as akin to all Helicpoters and the famous French harrier, and the Aspry....etc.

 

my problem is that I don't have a force feedback Joystick as of yet.

And I might be getting some weird feedback from my keyboard.

while in flight my arrow keys act as sort of a hyper trim setting. not really sure about that one. who knows what kind of stray signals that's sending to the control setup.

[GGTharos]

But why are you using the arrow keys?

 

I think ED has set up some sort of trimming for the keyboard to make it easier to fly for people without a joystick.

[159th_Viper]

It will come back to a hover, but it will take a while. And by "a while" I don't mean a few seconds, I mean it may take several minutes, depending on your speed. Imagine a table, a very large table, with a ball on top of it...let's say it's a 10-ton ball. With the table level, and the ball not moving, we will call that your stable, trimmed hover. Tilt the table (like moving the cyclic) and the ball rolls. Move the table back to level. How long will it take for a 10-ton ball to stop rolling? A long, long, time.

 

Every good helicopter control analogy should include a reference ot a ball on a table, if you ask me. ;)

 

Excellent Illustration :)

 

Made a quick track to illustrate the principle: Climbed to approx 100m AGL and trimmed for the hover. Now not a perfect hover, but movin' at approx 1-2m/s as illustrated by the HUD. Once trimmed for that attitude, I was hands-off and the only input was to push the cyclic forward until speed approx 50km/h. Cyclic then returned to centre position (no trim) and was hands-off till the Heli returned to it's prior state.

 

Did the same with acceleration to 100km/h, with same result. Again - No trim whatsoever and the Heli returned to a Hover.

 

Gotta love the Flight Model :D

 

Ps: Non-FFB Cougar Flightstick

 

http://www.2shared.com/file/7088521/5871f278/Trim_for_Hover.html