Rudder Problems

[WhiskeyJuliet]

Hi guys,

 

I'm having trouble with the rudder functions of the KA-50. Whenever I yaw in one direction, when I release the pedal the chopper swings back to almost its original heading. I suspect this is an autopilot function that I need to switch off, can anyone point me in the right direction.

 

It makes linig up a Vikhr almost impossible....

[sobek]

It is not an autopilot function that needs to be turned off, it is you who needs to learn how to trim ;)

[Distiler]

Hi guys,

 

I'm having trouble with the rudder functions of the KA-50. Whenever I yaw in one direction, when I release the pedal the chopper swings back to almost its original heading. I suspect this is an autopilot function that I need to switch off, can anyone point me in the right direction.

 

It makes linig up a Vikhr almost impossible....

 

Do you have the 1.01c patch? This "returning" effect is quite different from 1.0

[ARM505]

Just turm the heading autopilot off (one of the five blue buttons next to your right knee), then see if the problem is still there. If it goes away, read the manual again regarding the heading AP before re-engaging it. You don't need it to fly effectively though.

[WhiskeyJuliet]

Just turm the heading autopilot off (one of the five blue buttons next to your right knee), then see if the problem is still there. If it goes away, read the manual again regarding the heading AP before re-engaging it. You don't need it to fly effectively though.

 

That did the trick thanks :)!

[Kwill]

Just turm the heading autopilot off (one of the five blue buttons next to your right knee), then see if the problem is still there. If it goes away, read the manual again regarding the heading AP before re-engaging it. You don't need it to fly effectively though.

 

that's really bad advice to be honest, the autopilot is there for a reason, but since this is just a sim people can fly however they want though...

[WhiskeyJuliet]

that's really bad advice to be honest, the autopilot is there for a reason, but since this is just a sim people can fly however they want though...

 

Ok fair point, what would be your advice Kwill :)? There's more than one way to skin a cat after all ;). It is a tad jumpy without heading hold.

[159th_Viper]

Ok fair point, what would be your advice Kwill :)? There's more than one way to skin a cat after all ;). It is a tad jumpy without heading hold.

 

Trim, Trim and More Trim......:)

[WhiskeyJuliet]

Trimming certainly has helped, looks like it's just a matter of practice :). I got everything lined up fine eventually, I'm getting pretty comfortable with the missile drill at least. Getting there, getting there - this sim just keep getting better!

[nemises]

Try the "press and hold" trim method, see if that helps...

ie press and hold the trim button during any maneuvering, and release it once you are at the desired attitude and heading.

Pressing and holding the trim button releases any control the AP has for the duration of the hold, and when released, will set the new Desired Heading to the AP.

[26-J39]

that's really bad advice to be honest, the autopilot is there for a reason, but since this is just a sim people can fly however they want though...

 

It is not bad advise at all.. The heading hold is there if you CHOOSE to use it.

Flying without heading hold will definitely teach you to trim the aircraft properly, and there is no need to hold trim etc when banking for turns.

Player preference.;)

[sobek]

Player preference.;)

 

In the game. yes, IRL, no way Jose.

[ARM505]

that's really bad advice to be honest, the autopilot is there for a reason, but since this is just a sim people can fly however they want though...

 

Ok, I've seen this kind of comment again and again, and also the one above this post - once again I speak only as a fixed wing airliner pilot (B737-2/3/4/500) but autopilots are AIDS and nothing more (I'm speaking about general flight, not specifics such as CAT III approaches etc). But ok, I'm not a helo pilot, despite having flown them once or twice. Can somebody show me in the manual where it says the heading hold AP is REQUIRED to be ON for all phases of flight, or something dangerous might happen? I'd love to see that pointed out. To me, it is an AID to flight, and nothing more. If it hinders you, turn it off. I am in control of what systems are engaged on my aircraft, not the manual, when push comes to shove. They help me, not the other way around.

 

Since the heading AP CONSISTENTLY interferes with new pilots learning to fly this aircraft (judging by the number of posts here), I recommend turning it off, at least until they fully understand what it will do, and how it can VERY easily interfere with trimming the aircraft correctly. So, that is my advice, and most importantly WHY I give it. Disagree if you must, but the reason should be explained as well, and more than 'the manual says so' (why does the manual say so, if indeed it does?)

 

You'll also note I didn't tell him to simply leave it off forever. Once basic flight is mastered, THEN he can progress to using it as the AID it is designed as, for example, keeping straight on long nav sectors, using it in the hover hold mode, turn to target etc. But for basic flight, I maintain (and it is indeed player preference) that it is more a hinderance than aid, at least initially. And even when you're more advanced, just for doing basic flight, I personally find it tends to get in the way.

 

IMHO. And I really mean that, mine is just an opinion. A reasoned one, I believe, but my own nonetheless.

Edited November 17, 2009 by ARM505

[Nate--IRL--]

Everybody has their own way of flying the shark, Personally I use the Flight Director for 90% of the time, unless I'm on a waypoint leg.

 

Their may be a correct way to fly the Real shark, but that does not take into account the difference between the Real trim system and the simulated trim system.

 

In short, to each their own.

 

Nate

[sobek]

[...]

 

I do not know if it is mentioned in the manual, however, IIRC many (that includes people who were at some point in direct contact with kamov) have stated that it is IRL forbidden for the pilot to

 

1. under any circumstances take off without at least the main 3 AP channels active

 

2. turn any of the 3 main AP channels off while in flight unless there is a dire malfunction that makes this necessary

 

Also autopilot may be the wrong term, as the main function is stability augmentation. The AP functions like route following are a different matter and do not fall into this category.

[WhiskeyJuliet]

This all just goes to show how real this sim is, if people are able to develop their own piloting style with regards to flight aides etc. Many good suggestions here and I'v taken them all on board. I know I'm not the first and I'm sure I won't be the last new pilot to have trouble with this particular function.

[EtherealN]

sobek has it pretty much right. It's not that bad things are guaranteed to happen if you fly without the damping channels - but there is no actual loss in having them active and they do increase safety a lot. Real pilots (do recall that ED consulted with actual military Ka-50 operators when creating this simulation) are from what I recall not allowed to turn those damper channels off just because they prefer to fly that way. (Obviously though, in the simulator you don't have a CO that can rip you a new one if you do so anyway, and if you find it easier without then go ahead.)

 

However, they do of course train to fly without since battle damage may render the dampers inoperable. But on a mission they are on unless shot to pieces.

 

What needs to be realized here is that these aren't really the standard autopilot function as in most fixed-wing aircraft. The Ka-50 has such autopilot functions as well. These are actually about improving controllability (such as the FCC in unstable fixed-wing designs like the Gripen, 16 etcetera) while in manual flight.

[ARM505]

I understand the functionality of the AP channels, and note please that I'm focussing on the heading channel in particular. Whilst 'somebody' from Kamov may have told 'somebody' (I'm not being disparaging, merely commenting on the vagueness of this information), I'm still not seeing a valid reason, other than, 'In Soviet Russia, heading AP channel flies you!' :)

 

I agree that the pitch and roll channels prevent dynamic instability from making the helo enter dangerous attitudes given a moments inattention, so I would not recommend the novice turn them off. However the hdg AP channel simply isn't like this, ie. it is NOT dynamically unstable in yaw. In fact, in forward flight, it tends to settle into a steady state condition (albeit with the ball possibly un-centred), and is in that case then dynamically stable, ie yaw oscillations will damp themselves out over time, and an artificial AP input is NOT required to do this. Unlike modern FBW fixed wings (F16's, Gripens, etc), where the aircraft is dynamically UNSTABLE. In a stable hover you may find a steady yaw one way or the other, no big deal. The remedy (opposite rudder) is easily applied and obvious, and the yaw rate is in any case constant. All of these effects can be generated in error when using the hdg AP channel anyway by an inexperienced pilot. So, turning off the heading AP channel whilst learning to simply do basic flying manouevres is what I recommend.

 

Whilst I understand that official information (which I have yet to see, in the manual or otherwise) may say otherwise, once again I would like to know WHY. Enough from me in any case, I'm sure I've bored enough people already.

[nemises]

its a bit like traction control in a fast car...if you're driving for safety (like, technically you should allways be!) , leave it on...if you're out for a hoon though....turn it off and deal with the consequences (both positive and negative).

 

I think it makes sence, just like with these "real pilots" we hear about to learn how to fly it "safely" before trying to put it through the wringer.

 

end of the day, its a game tho, so whatever is fun is right

[26-J39]

ARM505 sums it up for me... Nice post bro ;)

I agree the Heading hold function is different to the pitch/bank dampeners.. i don't recall the pitch/bank dampeners having 20% authority on the FCS.

Conventional heli's are ALOT more unstable in yaw axis yet civ pilots have no problems without a "yaw dampener".

[sobek]

Conventional heli's are ALOT more unstable in yaw axis yet civ pilots have no problems without a "yaw dampener".

 

But they do not have the workload of sitting in the only single seated attack chopper there is. ;)

[26-J39]

I do not deny the fact there is a heavy workload in the KA50.. and obviously hence the HH function.. ( which is Great! don't get me wrong, i do use HH alot when needed) but when flying from A to B? or through a constant tight winding valley? Not Needed..! Why fly and bank with the trim button held down when u don't need to. Do we all fly around with our altitude hold AP on and press "F" when were at the right altitude??

[Frederf]

I would like to know WHY.

 

The reason why is simply that the Ka-50 can do it's job 100% with the 3-AP channel rule in place with greater safety than off. There's no benefit to turning it off and only benefit for having it on (assuming no hardware fault) so it stays on.

 

I mean, fair enough it's a video game and you can play it any way you like but "I fly with Heading channel optional/off." and "I fly the Ka-50 like a simulated aircraft." are inconsistent statements. It is incorrect to spread nebulosity like maybe a real pilot would consider it an option or some such. Pretending that the facts are not the fact is what bothers people. Statements to the contrary are deluding yourself and sadly others.

[26-J39]

It is incorrect to spread nebulosity like maybe a real pilot would consider it an option or some such. Pretending that the facts are not the fact is what bothers people. Statements to the contrary are deluding yourself and sadly others.

 

Presumptions.

[ARM505]

Ok, I'll rise again.

 

There's no benefit to turning it off

 

I disagree. There are several cases where there are clear benefits. When I am not going to be maintaining a constant heading for any length of time (flying through a valley was a previously mentioned good example), nor requiring any heading aids (turn to target), then having the heading AP on is unnessesary at best, counterproductive at worst. Again, I refer only to the heading AP, and again, I normally use it, but I use it when it can provide some kind of advantage, and turn it off when it ADDS to my workload. Telling a new pilot who is struggling with his first flights to 'use it because I said so' (which is essentially what you're saying, since the manual doesn't seem to mention it) is not the correct method of teaching (I have 2000 hours of real life flight instruction - this doesn't make me awesome at all, but serves to show where I'm coming from). Also, witness how quickly the initial posters problem was solved (or at least isolated) when he followed my advice. Here are some more examples of where I've seen posters here stumble:

 

- Flying in straight and level, the ball is out one way or another. Is it out because the aircraft is not in trim, or is it out because the heading AP is attempting to yaw the nose back to the trimmed heading, even if this is only five degrees from current aircraft nose? I've seen several new pilots fall into this trap, believing the aircraft to be out of trim, when all that is happening is the heading AP is trying to yaw them (artificial input)

 

- A similar situation occurs in the hover. The helo is yawing without input - is it a) a residual trimmed input that hasn't been trimmed out, b) the heading AP attempting to turn to the trimmed heading, or c) the heading AP attempting to 'turn to target'. Two of those options can be eliminated simply by turning the heading AP off if you don't need it. So, use it or not - that remains my advice. As I said, I normally use it...but turn it off if it gets in the way.

 

 

Pretending that the facts are not the fact is what bothers people. Statements to the contrary are deluding yourself and sadly others.

 

Ok, It's just a sim, so you don't need to feel 'sad' because you think I'm 'deluding myself and others', but again you've obviously seen some kind of cast in stone proof that Kamov will strike you down with great vengeance if you so much as think of turning the heading AP channel off. I have never seen these 'facts', nor does the manual mention it. If a real Ka50 pilot told me that they don't do it, I can easily accept that - but NOBODY here has told me WHY, including yourself (and despite accepting their say-so, I'd still like the real Ka50 pilot to say why they do it). Saying that 'its safer' still doesn't say WHY. For example, leaving the pitch and roll channels off is easily recognisable as dangerous - the helo can rapidly enter a dangerous attitude. I've explained why this isn't the case with the yaw channel. Anyway, I've explained my point of view quite thoroughly now, so hopefully you can understand why I say this. I don't think any more input from me will be productive. And you'll note that I never told anybody to leave it off forever - I told the IP to turn it off for the purposes of troubleshooting where his problem came from, then explained why I felt that turning it off is beneficial in certain circumstances.

Edited November 18, 2009 by ARM505