Who in the Lomac Community uses radar Automization?

[RvEYoda]

This might be a factor, but as it now there are no factors.

 

Constructive ideas work so much better, I'm taking suggestions, so

maybe you have some ideas I/we could use?

 

no factors is not true. It does have some factors, but not many.

[Frostie]

I'd be much happier if you don't go around claiming your ECM ranging to be realistic and just like the real F-15. Please.

This to me is constructive. :)

 

Im curious, what factors does it have? Other than you bug a strobe it gives you a range.

Edited April 1, 2010 by Frostie

[RvEYoda]

This to me is constructive. :)

 

Im curious, what factors does it have? Other than you bug a strobe it gives you a range.

 

I don't think I ever have said my ecm ranging is accurate or "just like the real F-15".

[Frostie]

I don't think I ever have said my ecm ranging is accurate or "just like the real F-15".

So why include it? Novelty, fun? This is a sim you know.

The real life application uses amongst many complicating factors, TMA, your mod doesn't use TMA or any such method so how is it a good thing to have in a sim?

[GGTharos]

So why include it? Novelty, fun? This is a sim you know.

The real life application uses amongst many complicating factors, TMA, your mod doesn't use TMA or any such method so how is it a good thing to have in a sim?

 

So does ECM. Shall we stop using it altogether, then?

[Frostie]

So does ECM. Shall we stop using it altogether, then?

This is implemeted by ED, nothing we can do about that, so why add to the mayhem?

 

You lambasted me for calling the mod BS, but im sorry it is. There is not an ounce of realism to it.

Edited April 1, 2010 by Frostie

[104th_Crunch]

My vote, is to have TWS auto slew ERI available without ECM estimated range. That way the F15 will not have something other jets do not have if using just the ERI mod.

 

Of course, this is all dependant on Yoda having the time/will to so so. I am thankful for your work Yoda either way as we all have the choice anyway as server admins to not allow it using file integrity check. As an off topic comment, the one thing I hope server admins lock is the folder containing modellod.txt. It has the same function in LOFC1 where you can make a MiG-29 appears as the Kuznetsov.

[CyBerkut]

Some related information available out on the web:

 

http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ADA198785

 

http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ADD018494

 

http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ADA153922

 

http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ADA219481

 

http://www.control.isy.liu.se/~fredrik/reports/05bearingsonly.pdf

 

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V18-4RJRVH7-2&_user=10&_coverDate=06%2F30%2F2008&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1277037444&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=44f9a4c34da1a47c476720c5bb295a2d

 

And no, I didn't read all of that. :P But even quick skimming of that stuff reveals that a lot of investigation into the subject has been conducted with an eye toward getting more useful/useable answers.

[RvEYoda]

Some related information available out on the web:

 

http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ADA198785

 

http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ADD018494

 

http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ADA153922

 

http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ADA219481

 

http://www.control.isy.liu.se/~fredrik/reports/05bearingsonly.pdf

 

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V18-4RJRVH7-2&_user=10&_coverDate=06%2F30%2F2008&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1277037444&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=44f9a4c34da1a47c476720c5bb295a2d

 

And no, I didn't read all of that. :P But even quick skimming of that stuff reveals that a lot of investigation into the subject has been conducted with an eye toward getting more useful/useable answers.

 

Good stuff Cyberkut!

So the "range from only bearing is impossible" myth is pretty much busted then ;).

 

Also Here is a document from 1983 showing the F-15C capable of discerning targets down to

1/10 of beam witdth at 40 nm (so about 0.25 degrees), pdf page 32:

http://yoda.reservoirselite.com/apg63%20case%20study.pdf

(So the diffraction limit was not an issue that could not be dealt with)

 

CHECK PAGE 190

- Proof of ECCM ranging on F-15C with APG-63:

 

 

Edited April 1, 2010 by =RvE=Yoda

[GGTharos]

Unfortunately this would also lock out some people's FPS enhancement mods.

 

Of course, this is all dependant on Yoda having the time/will to so so. I am thankful for your work Yoda either way as we all have the choice anyway as server admins to not allow it using file integrity check. As an off topic comment, the one thing I hope server admins lock is the folder containing modellod.txt. It has the same function in LOFC1 where you can make a MiG-29 appears as the Kuznetsov.

[Pilotasso]

You lambasted me for calling the mod BS, but im sorry it is. There is not an ounce of realism to it.

 

You dont know that, infact you dont have grounds to claim it to be any less realistic at all. Your just speaking out of ignorance.

 

I know for a fact that currect modern f-16 blocks will estimate range and angular displacement (not possible in FC1 or 2) and without any strobes, allowing for AMRAAM shots without a hard lock. A simplified version of this and ECCM is present in F4 mods. F-15 will do it better at longer ranges.

 

So if you ask me LRM range estimation right now is more realistic than NOT having it. But if servers choose not to use it Im also fine with that decision.

[A.S]

:beer:

[Maximus]

it is pretty interesting debate down here.:worthy: Glad to see the evidence on AN/APG-63 posted above.

 

EDIT: nice work Yoda.

[Sparrow]

Great Find there Yoda!:thumbup:

[RvEYoda]

Great Find there Yoda!:thumbup:

 

GGTharos was really the one who found it :)

[Kuky]

Well I read some of the material on the first link and they clearly say to get decent estimate on the target it takes on average 30sec, less if initial detection is well off axis but also even up to 60sec in some cases... so sorry to burst some people's bubble but what current LRM is doing is estimating this instantly... not even close to how real calculations are done and how long it takes to do this... so who likes the idea of having to keep a lock on jammer signal, then having to start turning and accelerating and changing altitude and heading constantly, while maintaining lock for about 30-60sec? How is this even close to what LRM does and how can it be used with excuse of wanting realism?

 

EDIT: in some cases it takes about 75 readings 1sec each to get the estimation and sometimes estimation is not even possible as you get clusters of possible ranges

Edited April 1, 2010 by Kuky

[Wilde]

The fact, that about 1/3rd of the voters chose "Don't know what it is" tells me, that they have no clue what you're doing with LEAVU/LRM2 or however you call it. So after having flown offline for months to learn how to fly their birds they join your server. They get totally owned, because they have no idea of there suddenly being datalinks, ECCM and all the stuff. Then there's 3 ways for them to proceed. (1)Stop playing online, (2)start using it themselves or (3)hoping to find servers that disallow it. The latter being difficult, because you can't realistically check the server configs. Best thing they could try was installing the program and searching for servers that wont let them in, only to deinstall it again to fly there, i.e. a major pita.

[MoGas]

The fact, that about 1/3rd of the voters chose "Don't know what it is" tells me, that they have no clue what you're doing with LEAVU/LRM2 or however you call it. So after having flown offline for months to learn how to fly their birds they join your server. They get totally owned, because they have no idea of there suddenly being datalinks, ECCM and all the stuff. Then there's 3 ways for them to proceed. (1)Stop playing online, (2)start using it themselves or (3)hoping to find servers that disallow it. The latter being difficult, because you can't realistically check the server configs. Best thing they could try was installing the program and searching for servers that wont let them in, only to deinstall it again to fly there, i.e. a major pita.

 

Wilde, u think thats why people get owned? People get owned by there lonewolf and for some guys who stuck in there 1.12 tactics, and not by the LRM. And if u think that when u fly a months offline for training, u kick a.... on the online server where u find Sqn's flyeing around with team tactics and years of experience then u are rong.

[Wilde]

MoGas, I was talking in general. You can actually fly offline for years, perfecting your skills in all flyable aircraft, mastering every available system. I am sure the majority at least learns one aircraft thoroughly before trying to fight with human players online. These people are the ones you want to see keeping the community alive, aren't they? And these people will get a cold shower once they start flying online because of the reasons I stated.

[Frostie]

So the "range from only bearing is impossible" myth is pretty much busted then ;).

 

You dont know that, infact you dont have grounds to claim it to be any less realistic at all. Your just speaking out of ignorance.

First of all I have never doubted this is done in real life. The issue here is that the mod does nothing to resemble RL.

 

Why can't you see that the real way this is 'computed' takes time and aspect changes.

 

Yoda's mod

 

1. takes no time, its instant

2. allows you to lock several bandits and get a good estimate range on all of them and decide which is the greatest threat all in the space of a couple of seconds, SEVERAL TARGETS in an instant.

3. get a good range on a target that flys directly towards you while you fly directly towards it, instantly.

 

This is the sort of idea of adding labels to help make WVR more realistic with keeping eyes on the bandit, while forgeting the unrealistic advantages your gaining in other areas.

 

If you can make a realistic ranging system fair enough but this isn't anywhere near, and by releasing it as part of a realism mod your claiming it to be.

Edited April 1, 2010 by Frostie

[Frostie]

So if you ask me LRM range estimation right now is more realistic than NOT having it.

Thats the point Yoda's mod isn't an ECM ranging system its a very poor mis-informed arcade representation.

 

Its as if the words 'ECM ranging' are the only information taken to make this mod. If any understanding of how the system really works had been done then there would be a delay before a range was given for a start, to represent what a real system does, compute TMA over time to get an approximation of position. The idea of getting several different targets location in an instant is the realm of X-wings.

[MoGas]

MoGas, I was talking in general. You can actually fly offline for years, perfecting your skills in all flyable aircraft, mastering every available system. I am sure the majority at least learns one aircraft thoroughly before trying to fight with human players online. These people are the ones you want to see keeping the community alive, aren't they? And these people will get a cold shower once they start flying online because of the reasons I stated.

 

I know Wilde, be honest with u, I got my cold shower as well, when I was starting to play FC1.12 online years back, and there was no LRM around. ;)

[Breakshot]

Quite frankly even the TDC auto-slew IMO has more detrimental effects when flying F15...

 

And i have been flying F15 extensively for a long long period of time with both options, only to find that the default manual way is still more reliable in keeping track (providing one knows how to work it properly) due to automation sometimes interfering with manual input and 'snapping' in a wrong manner thus breaking track... very annoying to say the least

 

As for RUFOR radar automatization that was done in some LRM version for FC1, id go as far as calling it a total nightmare which liturally broke the Rus radar from being operated properly... i have no idea how anyone could have flown with that one...

 

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Now regarding the ECM ranging.... well that is just overboard, IMO...

 

The most annoying thing to me about this is that it seems whenever some of us dont agree on the validity of such implementations, we just get the same answers that just go round and round in circles... Its as if both Yoda and GG feel they must always defend their implementations at any cost, and of course can never be proven wrong....

 

Wouldnt it just be easier to release a more simplified version and give users the choice to use the more 'questionable' aspects such as ECM range only if they want to?

 

Because from the tone i hear reverberating here is.... "Do it our way or the highway, because we know these things better than you"... which is quite sad i must add...

 

I say make a clean version without the range stuff first, and then mabe the community can take a look at it at a more objective angle...

 

==========================================================

 

What worries me most is what 'other' scripts are possible...

 

Lest face it, when these things get developed they stay internal and can be misused, even if there is no bad intentions present... im guilty of doing this myself too... so my point is, how would one trust it to be different and 'fair' this time as its claimed to be? Afterall doesnt the ECM ranging give the F15 quite an unfair capability (which in RL would be questionable to be nearly as effective, not to mention the fact that we are dealing with older F15 models in FC environment)

 

I say default export.lua is the ONLY way to go for public day to day servers, hand in hand with appropriate integrity checks, just like we used to to before (take the old 504 server for example which ran all exports OFF and worked great, with stats great missions etc etc)... This is the only way to ensure trust in the community...

 

afterall 90% of all online pilots dont go that far as installing intricate lua mods for their alter 'figher pilot' ego needs anyway...

 

Now as far as events and special missions are concerned, we should use these tools as needed to simulate different combat environments... Now there is where Datalinks, ATC software, whatever else would be great to have!

 

just my two cents on this...

 

Cheers!

Edited April 1, 2010 by Breakshot

[GGTharos]

"Do it our way or the highway, because we know these things better than you"

 

This is your tone.

 

I can only recall back in my 504 days the internal scripts GG and the gang ran months before actually giving it away to the community in FC1 (im not gonna go into details as some might not like it)... But lest face it, when these things get developed they stay internal and can be misused, even if there is no bad intentions present...

 

You really don't want to start that ... it will end with an egg on your face :)

 

With that said, how would one trust it to be different and 'fair' this time as both GG and Yoda claim it to be? (Im not trying to slant you guys in any way so please dont take me the wrong way, im just saying things how i feel them)

 

It's a nice post, looking like you might want to say something wise, but the only thing you've done is ignore the fact that so far, before you started personal accusations and FUD, the thread has been doing well, people asked questions, got answers. So yeah, it'll be taken 'the wrong way' because you started with a personal accusation which is undefensible since any explanations will send the thread going right down the thread in a spiral of further personal accusation - and consider it a courtesy to you that the previous comment is going unanswered.

Next time try 'feeling' the fact that the thread has managed to be civil.

[DarkWanderer]

Guys, throw an egg at me, but what I see here is some guy trying to support his position with arguments and a moderator(!) going personal on him.

Am I the only one thinking something's wrong? ;)