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Formation


MTFDarkEagle
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Formation thread :)

 

Just 10 min ago I was in a beautifull formation with Skunk and 2 others (I cant remember their names, sorry...). So, I thought I would share a couple of pic's of that. They aren't very good, since I dont have a formation profile on my x52 (with print screen mapped op it :P), so keep that in mind.

Perhaps this could be a thread where you can share and view other formations and talk about formations :) Admins: what do you think about this? :):pilotfly:

(or has such a thread existed before...:joystick:)

 

Greetings,

MTFDarkEagle

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Edited by MTFDarkEagle
whoops lol forgot picture's ;)
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Nice pics, serious skills allright :) However these are purely 'airshow' type formations. During combat missions you should have maintained way bigger separations, both in horizontal and vertical. Also diamond formation isn't the best choice, outside of airshows. It has no use for combat and even for cruise isn't the best around, as the trailing a/c has forward view somehow obscured and flies in turbulent air behind preceeding a/c.

 

Horizontal separation is to provide maneuvering flexibility (though I'd say you were more than flexible with accelerometer peaked form 0 to 3g's :P), prevent midair collision (what does it mean "that crash was not planned" in the chat?? :P) and prevent damaging/destroying several helos with one enemy missile/AAA shot. Also it helps keep better surveilance on terrain, because every pilot sees it at a bit different angle, which may help detecting targets/threats. Also 4 small helicopters apart are harder to spot, than 1 whole close group. With the help of ABRIS, I'd say that around 100m is good for cruise and 200-500m or even more for engagement. It confuses the enemy, as to from which direction the attack is coming. Just not split too far away, to maintain mutual support.

 

Vertical separation is something developed especially for Ka-50, in order to prevent damage to other helos, in a case when one of the pilots had to eject (these rotor blades can fly pretty far and unpredictable, when jettisoned). This type of separation also gives a little bit better view coverage, as well as helps to better blend the whole formation into surroundings (to give it a 'wavy' appearance instead of a straight line, because of shapes that are predominant in the nature).

 

While we speak about how combat helicopters use altitude, it is interesting to mention a formation developed by Russian pilots during the first Afghan War. You need at least 3 gunships (although 4 would be better), two flying first and one (two) in overwatch position behind them, on a higher altitude. The first two constantly alternate positions between themselves, while making turns of 30-45 degrees and changing altitudes. Paths of the first two should look like a DNA chain. The trailing helo (or a pair) looks for threats and directs the first pair to engage/evade. The front pair try to be at the same time hard to hit and rain steel of death on the badguys below (that's the reason behind double snake flight paths, as they are both bait and shooters). Imagine, how datalink is useful in such scenario! After some time helos change their positions in formation, to relieve first pair - that's why it's best to have another two trailing, instead of one. Pair-to-pair change is more efficient than moving only one from the front to the overwatch at a time.

 

Some simplified variant of the above would be well known finger-four formation, which I find useful both for cruising and combat. It's the most multipurpose and efficient formation in my opinion. When setting an ambush, you'd probably want to go line abreast, while elongated trail would be a good setup for quick slash attacks or 'circle of death' (think Il-2 ground attack tactics here). Another cruising classic is echelon (also known as stairs), as it combines easy cruising with evasive/split capability.

 

Also while flying NOE, try not to raise dust cluods with rotors - no camouflage or tactics will help, when you're followed by a sand storm :D

 

That are some quick advices for helicopter sims, anyone more interested into helicopter tactical movement and formations should get familiar with FM 1-112 Army Attack Helicopter Operations ("approved for public release; distribution unlimited"), Chapter 1, part 3-7 Movement.

 

Feel free to experiment and remember, that all this knowledge wasn't developed while sitting behind desk, but more likely behind instrument panel ;)

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Originally Posted by Death-17

Any yahoo can fly fixed, it takes skill to fly rotor.

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(what does it mean "that crash was not planned" in the chat?? :P)

 

Thanks! but we were in a non fight server (dragon's free flight IIRC), so tactical formation's weren't "required" ;)

 

Oh and the guy who had crashed, wasn't part of the formation :P I was waiting for someone to point that out ;)


Edited by MTFDarkEagle
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Cool :) I myself more just fly than fight, because of sweet flight model.

 

Formations will be a lot easier, if you get used to use cyclic to control speed, collective for altitude and rudder for direction (course). Most people (especially at first) use cyclic for direction and altitude, collective for avoiding crashes and pedals maybe in a hover... who needs pedals anyway? ;) Of course, most likely you'll have to use 2-3 controls at a time, but these are essentials. Also use trim, it's easier to let the helo fly by itself and only correct it a little from time to time, than fly it all the way manually.

 

cyclic = speed

collective = altitude

pedals = direction

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Originally Posted by Death-17

Any yahoo can fly fixed, it takes skill to fly rotor.

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I certainly need more than just rudder to change direction though ;)

 

As I've written: "Of course, most likely you'll have to use 2-3 controls at a time, but these are essentials." Steering coupling is even more visible in helos, than in fixed wings. However even there, you have torque induced yaw, aileron differential yaw, sideslip coupled with bank and so on. It's important to understand, how to use separate controls and integrating them into a complete control system is only after that understanding was achieved. One instructor pilot told me about a student, who was told to turn a Cessna. He banked it 90 degrees and wanted to yank on the stick "like in a computer jet-simulation"...

 

Its not quite so simple.. In very basic aviation this is correct, but if I want to accelerate hard, and I bang my cyclic forward, I need to up the collective as wel..

 

Nothing is simple in aviation ;) In your example, if you want to accelerate - you push 'the speed stick' (cyclic) forward. Basically, what you do, if you push too much, is entering a dive. Then you begin to loose altitude, so you use 'the altitude stick' - collective. And in a dive you begin to accelerate rapidly, because of banging on cyclic. Everything is correct.

 

Combat, or non combat, the flight principles and helo controls always work in the same way, only you use them a bit differently, for different effects. Combat maneuvers only tend to be more aggressive and often uncoordinated on purpose, like in a pedal only turn or sideslip deceleration, where sideslip indicator ball is far away from the center. But still, pedal = direction, cyclic = speed.

 

Back on topic - Eagle, do you have by a chance tracks from said formations flights? You know, a picture is worth a thousand words, but movie is worth a thousand pictures ;)

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Originally Posted by Death-17

Any yahoo can fly fixed, it takes skill to fly rotor.

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General squad question. Do you guys practice formation flights? Not just to look cool, but practical combat formation spreads etc and how to apply them during a combat drill?

 

I think that type of knowledge would greatly increase the effectivness of a squad in a combat situation. Ground attack/fighter/ etc.

 

I would assume it would take some time to learn and implent effectively but I think it woul be an interesting routine to run. I love when the technical side of aviation gets special attention vs blowing stuff up all the time, but that's just me ;).

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Cool :) I myself more just fly than fight, because of sweet flight model.

 

I'm the same, when I get the chance to fly - which is not that often nowadays unfortunately.

 

Sorry to go off topic here, but this is the reason why I'd like to see at least one helicopter added to the collection mainly for "flight enjoyment". A real hotdogger such as the BO105 or MD500 would surely be much appreciated by most pilots. Its very hard to beat the thrill and adrenaline rush from throwing one of these machines around at low level - both for fun and on task in a mission.

 

Please please please ED... just one for the ultimate thrill ride? We want to fly like Charlie Zimmerman :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXNCZlQcvGw

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Formation thread :)

 

Just 10 min ago I was in a beautifull formation with Skunk and 2 others (I cant remember their names, sorry.

 

I was on the 5oclock of the leader :joystick: i think i sweat 2 liters :joystick::pilotfly:

 

schnarre

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

There are two types of fighter pilots - those who have, and those who will execute a magnificent break turn towards a bug on the canopy . . . .

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/schnarrsonvomdach

http://www.twitch.tv/schnarre

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Schnarre-Schnarrson/876084505743788?fref=ts

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We could organise comething like that :)

we do often fly Formation when flying the "freeflightmission"

Just watch out for:

 

=STP= server 1

=STP= server 2

=STP= server 3

 

we do have as well a TS3-Server with the Ip 193.192.58.7:5430 pw: stpTS3

(I have the permission to post the TSinfo straight from the host/Owner/Admin/CallMeGod/HammersB*tch-=STP= Phantom :lol:)

 

Feel free to organize in gamechat and load a freeflightmission with servmanmod

but please ... mind the majority :smartass:.... and of course the =STP= members ;-)

 

schnarre


Edited by Schnarre [Aggro]
just to complete the post

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

There are two types of fighter pilots - those who have, and those who will execute a magnificent break turn towards a bug on the canopy . . . .

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/schnarrsonvomdach

http://www.twitch.tv/schnarre

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Schnarre-Schnarrson/876084505743788?fref=ts

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Anyone who has a track/picture/movie of a formation so we can watch the brilliance of it?

 

sry i watched my track and it was broken even before we started the formation ;-)

 

schnarre

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

There are two types of fighter pilots - those who have, and those who will execute a magnificent break turn towards a bug on the canopy . . . .

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/schnarrsonvomdach

http://www.twitch.tv/schnarre

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Schnarre-Schnarrson/876084505743788?fref=ts

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Nice shots! Very good formation flying!

 

@all: Have fun on our =STP= servers. Everyone is welcome (except cheaters and teamkillers).

 

 

Some pictures from a meeting between °UFS° and =STP=:

 

STPmeetsUFS_3.jpg

 

STPmeetsUFS_4.jpg

 

STPmeetsUFS_5.jpg

 

 

 

And that's what happened if the formation is to close. :D

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=48264

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