FC 2.0?? su27 vs f15???

[GGTharos]

GG everything here in FC is competition, everybody want his kill, almost every server have kill ratio scores. I don`t have nothing against team work, but this is game and it is not realistic and it will never be.

 

But there is nothing wrong with trying to make it more realistic. ;)

Seriously, if you think that this is all there is to FC, then you may as well play HAWX. Think about it - what need do you have to have anything simulated if you just think of it as a game?

 

I would be happiest when all of this missile would do nothing and just go straight:), and when good wingman would do his job in dogfight like in Top Gun, with Maverick and Iceman:megalol:, most of peeps here didn`t saw sky full of planes runing for gun kill, very few of us had play that kind of game. Yesterday i was flying on akado 2vs1, i killed them both, now that was an excelent feeling, when 2 jets chaseing you, and you just wash them off:smartass::pilotfly::pilotfly::pilotfly::lol:

 

Sure, that's great, but what does this have to do with F-15 vs Su-27 :D

[124SqZeljava]

 

 

 

Sure, that's great, but what does this have to do with F-15 vs Su-27 :D

Well i was asking my self reading too much post here...Bob was right, he feels very good this thread:D:megalol::megalol::megalol:

[124SqZeljava]

FBP, 27vs15, 15 on highest skills, ER hiting him on 5km farnes. Check his speed, calculate ur speed, missile speed, G turns of missile, funny move of freackin f15(if that is the way to break the lock, then every f15 pilot is an ACE:lol:), and if that is in real life ER, well brothers and sister`s, Russian`s would never ever make this missile:D

[A.S]

....

 

@GG:

 

The last point might lead to a necessity of over-modelling missiles, since a vPilot will not fear for his life - so you have to punish him for not flying realistically. This is a result of simulation that we must all cope with:

I like that.

 

@Tek:

 

hat gets most realistic in Lomac is the teamwork in my opinion

Right. The best moments of Lockon are either pure 1vs1 fights, or really well coordinated teamworks. Both underline the colors still given in a sim and distinguish the tactical possibilites.

Pitty enough, those things dont happen to much, and we are used to have a quick "burns" on online servers. But thats not everything.

Surely enough most are also frustrated about few aspects of the sim itself, which sometimes do not allow proper fights or teamwork, and you cant blame always the players doing just that what works rather then that what should be realistic. They just addapt what "works".

Its a long way regocnizing, that you can use this game also as simulation environmnent, but the goal should ALWAYS be realism.

Its the learning path/curve what is fun and what fullfills with sense of achievement, not the "results".....at least for me.

Edited February 7, 2010 by A.S

[GaryIKILLYOU]

I think the people that are "hating" agains FC 2.0 need to grow up a bit and realise that ED is not going to change it drastically in the last minute to balance it out. Sorry but this is a sim, a survey sim, but still its a sim and you need to understand that realism is the main goal. SO FREAKING WHAT if the F-15C is getting an overhaul, every other plane is getting an upgrade in one way or another! No need to attack the fact that the F-15C is getting major and desperately needed changes. SO PLEASE ACCEPT IT FOR WHAT IT IS AND MOVE ON! This thread is just full of trolling, and in my opinion needs locked and deleted.

[Wags94]

My God, this was determined ages ago:

 

The determining factor is the pilot. If you find yourself in a perpetual state of fail, you are either a crappy pilot, or the other pilot is better than you.

 

 

 

Bob feels many pages :D

 

I think we should we should all congratulate Boberro's ability to predict fail.

[BlackFallout]

Don't be nervous but i flew with one wing by F-15 in FC.

Moreover i flew without 2 wings online after a SAM hit and i almost landed.

Almost coz i run out of fuel (fuel leak with burning wing-roots) just front of the runway :mad: and i had many witnesses.

 

So u need to learn how to fly with Eagles :D

 

I made a mission where I was in an F15 taking off from the runway, I had placed two transport trucks just about where the edges of my wings would be taking off.

 

When I took off the stationary transport trucks on the runway would tear my wings off as I flew down the runway past them.

 

I was able to fly the F15 with no wings and land it:joystick:. I'll have to make a video and post it.

[GhostDog]

I made a mission where I was in an F15 taking off from the runway, I had placed two transport trucks just about where the edges of my wings would be taking off.

 

When I took off the stationary transport trucks on the runway would tear my wings off as I flew down the runway past them.

 

I was able to fly the F15 with no wings and land it:joystick:. I'll have to make a video and post it.

 

I'm sure you've heard of the famous real-life incident where an F15 had a wing sheared off and still managed to make a safe landing.

 

The money quote: "The F15 has a very wide body, you fly fast enough and you're like a rocket, and you don't need wings."

Edited February 8, 2010 by GhostDog

[Professor]

Hehe,

 

Reminds me of my PPL theory teacher who annoyingly replied "Everything can fly if you strap big enough engine on top of it" on my question how wings generate lift when going up 90 degrees vertical :D

[124SqZeljava]

I made a mission where I was in an F15 taking off from the runway, I had placed two transport trucks just about where the edges of my wings would be taking off.

 

When I took off the stationary transport trucks on the runway would tear my wings off as I flew down the runway past them.

 

I was able to fly the F15 with no wings and land it:joystick:. I'll have to make a video and post it.

Yeah, that`s realistic OMG, why all you don`t think, like that f15ss is your`s, and you need to sell it to some country, flying with 1 wing is best comercial for selling it, but you are western block and i can`t help you;)

[GGTharos]

I suggest you stop now, since you aren't adding anything useful to the discussion - the comment was about the LOFC flight model, not some 'western block' advertisement.

 

It isn't as if 'eastern block' has more realistic views of anything, so get over it ;)

 

Yeah, that`s realistic OMG, why all you don`t think, like that f15ss is your`s, and you need to sell it to some country, flying with 1 wing is best comercial for selling it, but you are western block and i can`t help you;)

[124SqZeljava]

I suggest you stop now, since you aren't adding anything useful to the discussion - the comment was about the LOFC flight model, not some 'western block' advertisement.

 

It isn't as if 'eastern block' has more realistic views of anything, so get over it ;)

GG you have very good diplomatic skill`zz;)

[GGTharos]

No, my diplomatic skills suck, so I just try to say what I mean :)

[Vekkinho]

I'm sure you've heard of the famous real-life incident where an F15 had a wing sheared off and still managed to make a safe landing.

 

The money quote: "The F15 has a very wide body, you fly fast enough and you're like a rocket, and you don't need wings."

 

That "Famous" RL incident happened in Israel and was actually a mishap, pilot of the particular F-15I isn't the guy you saw in the video because active Israeli pilots never go public.

 

So the wing was ripped of during taxi incident between F-15I and a fuel truck with the fuel truck moving carelessly thru the hardstands...F-15 being parked with cold and dark pit...

[Lucas_From_Hell]

Are you sure, Vekkinho?

 

This sounds somewhat weird to me...

[MoGas]

It would be the first parked F-15 without cover's on the plane with speed brake out, and engine nozzles in diffrent positions as well after a hurry escape soo..., but ya believe what u want.

 

Btw. retired IADF pilots gets shown in TV.

[monotwix]

I’ve done my own little bit of investigation and speculation regarding SU-27 and R-77 and I‘m just going to try to piece the bits of information together.

 

Su-27 has entered service in 1984 and the works on the R-77 began in 1982.

R-27ER and ET entered in 1990.

 

Quotes from wikipedia:

SU-27 related.

Frontal Aviation service its primary role was as aerial interdictor, tasked with fighting its way past enemy (presumably NATO) lines to strike tanker and AWACS aircraft.[citation needed] Soviet planners knew that NATO forces possessed an advantage because of these assets, and believed that attacking them directly would limit NATO’s ability to maintain an extended air campaign.[citation needed] The Su-27 retains that role in CIS service, with later marks capable of carrying long-range "AWACS killer" missiles such as the Vympel R-37 and, potentially, the Novator K-100 when it enters production.

 

If there is no tactical documentation has been written by the Russian air force to deal with ARH missiles (AIM-120) it may be because it has not been revealed yet, but it shows that the intention behind the strategy, tactics, countermeasures (pick one) has always existed, in my view the defensive strategy is totally different from the offensive strategy, why? Because for the initial assault it uses is air strikes and for defensive strategy it uses air strikes in combination with the ground defence.

 

Lets see what monotwix has to say next: in 1990s was the least favourable time for the CIS countries to care about their defence program due to the political turmoil which possibly reflects the lowest point in air defence of the SIM we are playing, and even if it was stepped up to more modern combat capabilities of SU-27 vs. F-15c where the two platforms are capable of delivering ARH missiles it would change the balance and the realism would remain unaffected.

 

This bit is ARH missiles related from wiki.

Sometimes the launching platform (especially if it is an aircraft) may be in danger while continuing to guide the missile in this way until it 'goes active'; In this case it may turn around and leave it to luck that the target ends up in the projected "acquisition basket" when the missile goes active. It is possible for a system other than the launching platform to provide guidance to the missile before it switches its radar on; This may be other, similar fighter aircraft or perhaps an AWACS.

 

This opens the whole bunch of possibilities for BVR.

 

Whereas SARH missiles:

The combat record of SARH missiles was unimpressive during the Vietnam War. USAF and US Navy fighters armed with AIM-7 Sparrow attained a success rate of barely 10%,[citation needed] which tended to amplify the effect of deleting the gun on most F-4 Phantoms, which carried 4 Sparrows. Some of the failures were attributable to mechanical failure of 1960s era electronics which could be disturbed by pulling a cart over uneven pavement, or pilot error; the intrinsic accuracy of these weapons was low relative to Sidewinder and guns. However, since Desert Storm, most F-15 Eagle combat victories have been scored with the Sparrow at beyond visual range.

 

So was it a data link or 7G manoeuvres or neither in terms of comparing the success rates?

 

The advantages of having ARH on board is clear but it retains the puzzle I.e. the development of SU-27 and R-77 sort of fit into that time frame and yet they are miles apart.

 

If it was as realistic as it is in LO the first thing they would do is make SU-27 and R-77 and put them together.

For me however the question is still open when I think about it, non existent tactics in the Russian air force? think again! Some one knows and that’s not me.

 

Can we agree that having the carriers in the Black sea is a good thing during the 90s in LO?

Either way I would like to encourage every one to think that realism should be based on the mission objective rather than the precision of the missile modelling.

FSX have managed to place real time ATC controllers and in this case it could do with the real time mission planer with air combat logistics, tanks and fleets.

What is not realistic is to have SU-27 Locked for so many years firing R-27ER whilst beaten to death, ''it has never happened''.

[GGTharos]

The Su-27SM is equipped with R-77 if necessary.

Find out when that got into service. The aircraft modeled in LO (Su-27P/S) never has and never will carry the R-77. Period.

[monotwix]

I thought you said there was no plans or tactics to deal with AMRAAM.

Or training their air force, and bang, there’s nothing only the Polish Mig-29 instructor is catching up with those tactics using R-27.

[monotwix]

No offence intended.

[GGTharos]

I have absolutely no idea where you got the idea that there were no tactics to deal with AMRAAM. This is a figmentof your own imagination.

These tactics did not include the R-77 when it was not available (and if it is now, it's just barely).

[monotwix]

Originally Posted by monotwix

I don’t understand the advantages of not having active missiles on air superiority fighter e.g. SU-27 and therefore the theoretical tactics used by Russian air force to deal with AIM-120.

 

 

Originally Posted by monotwix

I don’t understand the advantages of not having active missiles on air superiority fighter e.g. SU-27 and therefore the theoretical tactics used by Russian air force to deal with AIM-120.

 

And you replied:

There are none. They were in a bad position in general to deal with AIM-120 equipped aircraft.

 

Don’t blame my imagination it’s good but not that good.

[Renato71]

That "Famous" RL incident happened in Israel and was actually a mishap, pilot of the particular F-15I isn't the guy you saw in the video because active Israeli pilots never go public.

 

So the wing was ripped of during taxi incident between F-15I and a fuel truck with the fuel truck moving carelessly thru the hardstands...F-15 being parked with cold and dark pit...

 

Actually, it did happen as the (actual) pilot in the video described. I still have a clipping from Airforces Monthly, somewhere in my archive, that was published shortly after it happened. It was not F-15I, but a regular two-seater F-15B. If I remember correctly, this incident happened in first half of 80's, way before F-15I was introduce in service (mid/late 90's? dunno remember but I have World Airpower Journal with first pics during flyover from USA, in USAF markings).

 

Also, as it happened more then 20 yr ago, and pilot probably had 5-10 yr of previous experience, he most probably retired from the service when he gave that interview ;)

[159th_Viper]

It was not F-15I, but a regular two-seater F-15B.

 

IAF F-15D #957, (nicknamed 'Markia Shchakim').

[GGTharos]

Originally Posted by monotwix

I don’t understand the advantages of not having active missiles on air superiority fighter e.g. SU-27 and therefore the theoretical tactics used by Russian air force to deal with AIM-120.

 

 

Originally Posted by monotwix

I don’t understand the advantages of not having active missiles on air superiority fighter e.g. SU-27 and therefore the theoretical tactics used by Russian air force to deal with AIM-120.

 

And you replied:

There are none. They were in a bad position in general to deal with AIM-120 equipped aircraft.

 

Don’t blame my imagination it’s good but not that good.

 

There are no advantages of not having active missiles on air superiority fighters. You tried to say two completely different things in the same sentence, I answered the first. Tactics exist, but they're still at a (probably huge) disadvantage.

 

These tactics - at last by the book - prescribe a worm-like aproach to target so that you spend a lot of time in the notch and deny the first shot as long as possible while confusing your opponent's sort.

 

This requires flying in a way that will force enough look-down to force a notch ... other tactics I've head of is high supersonic aproach, though that will only get you parity with a subsonic 120 carrier at best.

 

A lot of it is bait and switch tactics which depend heavily on your opponent 'cooperating'.

Edited February 8, 2010 by GGTharos