Flankers versus Falcons

[Pilotasso]

And when it goes 64 bit go all the way west to Portugal. We would like to have our falcons rubb wings with your Flankers in DCS: Falcon :D

 

If that would happen F-16 would fall apart like your mig-29 picture .;)

 

Brilliant idea T-Bone.

 

So TEK you had to open a can of worms. You know when people say some things I simply cant stand still and do nothing. :)

 

Basicaly, I disagree with your comment above you made on the FC 2.0 maps thread.

 

This is because the vast majority of flanker variants flying today are of technological level 30 years behind most falcons flying today.

 

As I see it:

 

Advantages of the flanker Su-27S/P:

-Max speed

-range

Disavantages:

Just about everything else.

 

Most notably identification friend or foe and SA. Falcons are flying with labels on and share all data. And it has more than 1 system for identifying aircraft. This is fundamental for first shot capability. Further more All flankers are till using old R-27R missiles for their main BVR weapons. Most falcon users are on AIM-120C5 and C7 variants.

 

Should the SU-35 get proliferated, MAWS, AESA are future upgrades (for countries with small budgets), soon to come to mitigate the gap. Any F-16 can take these and F-100PW-229 Engines on demand if necessary, all these items can be added to the aircraft as fast as the manufacturer can supply them. Notably some falcons are 2 tons lighter than others, imagine the new T/W ratio by this engine:)

 

IF PAK-FA development evolves into the Su-41 Flounder (My bet for its future military designation :D ) then yes, there will bo no room for the falcon to deal with it. Automatic F-35 upgrade should be in order. :)

Edited February 25, 2010 by Pilotasso

[A.S]

Well, one thing they have in commone though. They are both masterpieces of artwork regards to design and time..:pilotfly:

[sniffer]

Well, one thing they have in commone though. They are both masterpieces of artwork regards to design and time..:pilotfly:

 

And this should be end of this discussion... IMHO

[Boberro]

IMHO personally Flanker S\P is worse than F-16.... Simply it is old bird.

[159th_Viper]

Alternative Phrasing of the Question:

 

Su-27 flown by Giora 'Hawkeye' Even or a F-16 flown by a Chimpanzee ;)

 

:pilotfly:

[Frostie]

IMHO personally Flanker S\P is worse than F-16.... Simply it is old bird.

So is the Portuguese Falcon. :D

[asparagin]

I say the flanker is not bad, the trouble(s) is the weapons he does(n't) have.

From the fighters in FC i only flew SU but now with all the 2.0 tam tam I think to move to mig..

[topol-m]

This is because the vast majority of flanker variants flying today are of technological level 30 years behind most falcons flying today.

 

 

Does anyone know anything about Su-27SM, avionics, payload, number in service?

 

Edit: Does Su-30 qualify as a flanker variant? ;)

Edited February 25, 2010 by topol-m

[Krippz]

Both planes are evenly matched in the A2A regime it comes down to tactics and training.....

[Vekkinho]

Su-27 thru Su-37 are Flankers!

[Frostie]

Does anyone know anything about Su-27SM, avionics, payload, number in service?

 

Edit: Does Su-30 qualify as a flanker variant? ;)

 

The Su-27PU prototype was later designated Su-30.

The Su-30 is an updated Flanker variant.

The Su-35 is an Su-27M.

[topol-m]

The Su-27PU prototype was later designated Su-30.

The Su-30 is an updated Flanker variant.

The Su-35 is an Su-27M.

 

I know Su-30 is updated and it`s definitely not 30 years older than F-16 :) There are different Su-30 versions though but I`m pretty sure most of them will eat falcons for breakfast.

What exactly is the difference between Su-27M, Su-27SM, Su-35, Su-35BM? Too many designations... How many of each type in service?

[FeoFUN]

What exactly is the difference between Su-27M, Su-27SM, Su-35, Su-35BM? Too many designations... How many of each type in service?

0, ~20-24, 0, 0

[topol-m]

0, ~20-24, 0, 0

 

Sure about that? I`ve seen pictures of 3-4 maybe more aircraft named Su-35 with different board numbers. All of them prototypes? No more in service? And the 48 to be produced will be 48 + those already built or 48 - those already built?

[FeoFUN]

Sure about that? I`ve seen pictures of 3-4 maybe more aircraft named Su-35 with different board numbers. All of them prototypes? No more in service?

Yep. Except Su-27SM, all other modifications are just prototypes or artifacts of the old Soviet projects. BTW, the 'old' Su-35 it's just another designation of the old Soviet Su-27M programme, which died in the late 90's.

[GGTharos]

... and it's getting some upgrades that even a 27SM will be jealous of.

 

The only flankers that have had a chance of keeping up have been the ones with foreign avionics, and even there there are integration issues - eg. the R-77 troubles for India, making that missile's range shorter than it is (or degrading Pk) due to lack of datalink integration ... just as an example.

 

Not that there's nothing to fear from a flanker - one of those birds equipped with a DRFM jammer (Assuming they're actually available for use, they may well not be) could well close to WVR, but at this point it's still up against more modern weapons than it carries itself (eg. 9X v R-73).

 

The real problem is that when it comes to ECCM, I don't think a flanker can really keep up ... well, not a currently-in-service flanker. It'll get its brains ECM'ed out, resulting in complete destruction of SA. I don't know what sort of backups/plans they have for such occurences, but I'm pretty sure they have them.

 

So is the Portuguese Falcon. :D

[Lucas_From_Hell]

Sorry if this is a bit incorrect, but as far as I'm concerned:

 

Su-27M: Another name for Su-35 (think of it as Su-27K/Su-33), a somewhat modernized Su-27 - canards, more pylons, refueling probe, twin-nose wheel, increased fuel capacity, new radar, glass cockpit and other small changes to the airframe. According to Wikipedia (in the lack of a better source), 15 were built, 2 converted into Su-37 for thrust-vectoring testing, 1 Su-35UB prototype, 5 used by the Russian Knights in training and some solo displays (not in formation flights, however), 1 at Monino and the rest probably in test centers such as Zhukovsky.

 

Su-27SM: Modernization made by the Russian Air Force, incorporates many features tested in the Su-27M/Su-35, and has very good A2G capabilities. Might fall into the 4+ generation category. Not sure about numbers, however :(

 

Su-35BM/Su-35S: The real deal :D. Vastly modernized and upgraded Flanker, with large changes to pretty much everything. Features TVC, aerodynamic changes (with considerably reduced RCS), significantly improved avionics (and all "From Russia With Love"), rear radar (worth saying, present in earlier Su-35 as well), new FCS... The list is quite big, but I'll stop here. To put it shortly, this is the asshole that will ruin your day :P

 

If I remember correctly, 3 prototypes were built (and one crashed). Russian Air Force put an order for 48 at MAKS, first ones to be built this year.

 

This is purely memory with quick checking sometimes, so pretty much everything might be wrong, but I hope it clears it up :)

 

For those who actually get anything about those planes, please correct any misleading info there.

[GGTharos]

Su-27SM: Modernization made by the Russian Air Force, incorporates many features tested in the Su-27M/Su-35, and has very good A2G capabilities. Might fall into the 4+ generation category.

 

Not a chance. Still uses a pretty crappy radar by comparison.

 

To put it shortly, this is the asshole that will ruin your day :P

translation: omg we finally caught up with a fully upgraded F-15C ... we think ;)

Undoubtedly a pretty modern and dangerous fighter, though. I don't think there will be a whole lot of them in light of the PAK-FA development. This one is the one that might fall into gen 4.5 category. Naturally, 'it all depends'. If nothing else, right now Air to Air armament would be its major weakness.

[Lucas_From_Hell]

... and it's getting some upgrades that even a 27SM will be jealous of.

 

Any info on those, Tharos? Fired up my curiosity.

 

What those upgrades consist of, basically?

 

EDIT: To avoid posting once again...

 

-Quite right about the Su-27SM.

 

-Not betting on many Su-35S as a full replacement either, but maybe 'closing the gap' until the PAK-FA/T-50 (or whatever it'll be called) is fully operational in large numbers. Now, I'm with you in the A2A being a large shortcoming, but by the time it will be introduced (first batch expected to be delivered around 2015), the situation will probably be different (not betting on missiles "pwning" the AMRAAM, but at least matching it or getting closer than now, AIM-9X is a different case, though). But hey, according to a dude from some Australian website (note: if he's right, then Santa actually exists), the Su-35S will destroy the F-35 with a 1000 x 1 rate :P

Edited February 25, 2010 by Lucas_From_Hell

[GGTharos]

Have a look here:

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article2.html

 

The gist of it is that it's going to be upgraded to the newest stuff you can stick on those planes, including new weapons like AIM-9X, helmet sight, new radar, ECM/ECCM capability, new processors, datalink and IFF hardware etc etc. It's a full on upgrade.

[FeoFUN]

Su-27SM: Modernization made by the Russian Air Force, incorporates many features tested in the Su-27M/Su-35

Sorry, but what is the features? Didn't hear about any features from the old Su-35/Su-27M that were used on SM.

 

and has very good A2G capabilities

I don't think so - the same old radar N001 with mechanical scanning and Cassegrain antenna. I can't think without a tears about its mapping capabilities or target designation in A2G mode. :cry:

[GGTharos]

Still, better capability than Su-27P/S, much better - what with the ability to hang a pod (IIRC) and use laser and TV-guided munitions, plus overall better CEP on unguided munitions delivery.

[FeoFUN]

Still, better capability than Su-27P/S, much better

Navigation and all-weather capabilities - yes. But with the same old A2A semiactive missiles, because even if it can use RVV-AE, there is no such missiles in the RuAF's arsenal. :(

 

- what with the ability to hang a pod (IIRC)

POD?! I've never heard about any targeting pod, not only on SM, but in RuAF's arsenal in general.

[GGTharos]

Hmm, I wonder if I read that one some site of ill repute (or no repute, rather) ...

[Frostie]

The real problem is that when it comes to ECCM, I don't think a flanker can really keep up ... well, not a currently-in-service flanker. It'll get its brains ECM'ed out, resulting in complete destruction of SA. I don't know what sort of backups/plans they have for such occurences, but I'm pretty sure they have them.

The probable very few people in the world that actually have the knowledge and experience to even think about comparing modern day current state F-16 v Flanker ECM and ECCM and your one of them.

I think not.