A few questions before purchase

[Major SNAFU]

Hi all,

 

Hmmm. Around 50 view and no replies. I am guessing my post is somehow offensive? I just want to know if the enemy/target AI responds to attacks, etc. - SNAFU

 

 

I am an old hand with flight-sims (Flacon 4, IL2, EAW, the Lock-On series, Long Bow2, etc.)

 

I am posting this because in all of the videos I have seen of BS showing attacks so far, it seems as if the ground targets remain stationary and inert while being attacked.

 

All of the videos I have watched so far follow a common theme of slow pop-up, take 60+ seconds to review and select targets, anther 30-50 seconds to lock up a target and select a weapon, fire, watch the weapon hit the target, THEN slew and acquire a new target , repeat. For total exposure of 4-6 *minutes* w/o droping to cover or relocating to a new shooting position while out of LOS with the potential targets.

 

Meanwhile the tanks (or whatever) just sit there after a SAM launcher 60 meters away just blew up, then the tank 20 meters away also blew up.

 

And no one is shooting back at the HA-50, as far as I can see.

 

Now in LongBow 2, if you employed the above tactics you would be a fireball in the sky in very short order (unless you are well out of weapons range of the enemy and there is no local support you haven't spotted). But even then, you should fly as if there *is* an MANPAD than you missed that is in range and locking you up *right now*. Please tell me that when flying missions you have to fly this way or get blown out of the sky for doing something as questionable/unwise as I see happening in the videos.

 

 

I am drooling over many other aspects of this sim, but this might be a real deal-killer for me to justify the amount of time coming to grips with the sim.

 

I am hoping that most of these videos are made just to show off the graphics and the weapons. Are there any videos showing a more, to me, realistic prosecution of a reactive enemy that I can watch prior to purchase?

 

Perhaps the user-made missions and campaigns are more sophisticated and require more "realistic" tactics than the ones that come with the sim?

 

I want to buy this, but I have to be convinced that I will get up out of my chair feeling like I went through the wringer after a mission.

 

Regarding user-made missions and campaigns. It seems like this is and active area which is critical for my enjoying a sim as I have very limited time to fly on-line.

 

Lastly, can you set up coordinated missions in the editor where you fly cover for evac helos, etc. so that it is all not just going after troops/tanks/etc.

 

 

Edit (One last question: Does anyone know if there is a layout for the Thrustmaster Cougar for BS?) - I found one, thanks!

 

 

Thanks,

 

SNAFU

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

test - This is here because I was logged in, wrote a huge detailed post and then when I tried to post it, I was told I wasn't logged in and all my work was gone.

Edited April 2, 2010 by Major SNAFU

[DetroitDieseL]

I just got BS the other day and started training myself. As far as I have seen so far, you can't just fly haphazzardily around engaging targets or you will be shot down. Wheather its from sams, should fired rockets or other AAA weapons on the ground.

 

One thing to think about, and I'm not to sure about the AI on the ground attacking us, but the T-XX-series tanks besides the newer ones, are not very efficient at shooting at aircraft. So to me if they are not shooting at aircraft, its realistic to me.

[EtherealN]

Actually, pretty much all ground units will fire at you if they consider they have a chance at hitting you, but obviously things like T-55's haven't got the kit to reliably hit a moving aerial target. (Hovering targets have a less shiney life expectancy...) More modern tanks can put a sabot through a moving Shark, so there you have to really maneuver if you pass within their gun WEZ. (Or just be so close and so fast that their turret traverse doesn't get you zeroed.)

 

EDIT:

As a funny story - me and Panzer flew a mission once where I flew a bit too quickly into a target area, got painted by laser, and then couldn't figure out where the heck the aggressor was. After a lot of looking around, Panzer comes on Teamspeak saying "Ether... Don't panic now, but he's right below you." (I panicked. The threat didn't shoot me at first since his gun couldn't elevate far enough.)

Edited April 2, 2010 by EtherealN

[DetroitDieseL]

I recommend buy this sim right now. It is !@#$%^& awesome.

[LIONPRIDE]

SNAFU:

 

I cut my teeth playing LB2 myself. There are major developments in BS that were not possible in the LB days.

http://www.HeloSim.Com

 

The trees in BS act as good cover in BS in regards to masking from other players. BUT - they serve very little purpose otherwise because the AI can see right through it. I have been shot-down by targets that have hid in trees. Not fair ... ... But you can disregard them and fly right through them.

 

 

Vehicles will not react defensively (IE: move to cover) if they are hit or see another unit hit. HOWEVER - they are a bit more aggressive in their attacks and are hidden in area much better.

 

 

Your wingmen in LB were much smarter then BS. The BS ones can send targets after recon, etc-but their attrition rate is high.

 

 

LB had better targeting systems than the BS. The BS is an antiquated system comparatively, but very challenging.

 

 

I would buy it - It's the closest thing to a successor my friend.

 

 

.

Edited April 2, 2010 by LIONPRIDE

[Wags]

Could you do me a little favor? Could you make a little Fraps video of how the ground AI in LB2 move and look for and hide behind cover when attacked? I'd like to see this.

 

To take it a step further, I'd love to see examples of any flight simulations having ground units under attack moving to cover to project themselves. Not saying there are not, just can't think of any off the top of my head and would love to see the implementation as reference for what we're planning.

 

No off topics please.

 

Thanks

 

SNAFU:

 

I cut my teeth playing LB2 myself. There are major developments in BS that were not possible in the LB days.

http://www.HeloSim.Com

 

The trees in BS act as good cover in BS in regards to masking from other players. BUT - they serve very little purpose otherwise because the AI can see right through it. I have been shot-down by targets that have hid in trees. Not fair ... ... But you can disregard them and fly right through them.

 

 

Vehicles will not react defensively (IE: move to cover) if they are hit or see another unit hit. HOWEVER - they are a bit more aggressive in their attacks and are hidden in area much better.

 

 

Your wingmen in LB were much smarter then BS. The BS ones can send targets after recon, etc-but their attrition rate is high.

 

 

LB had better targeting systems than the BS. The BS is an antiquated system comparatively, but very challenging.

 

 

I would buy it - It's the closest thing to a successor my friend.

 

 

.

Edited April 3, 2010 by Wags

[Major SNAFU]

SNAFU:

 

I cut my teeth playing LB2 myself. There are major developments in BS that were not possible in the LB days.

 

http://www.HeloSim.Com

 

The trees in BS act as good cover in BS in regards to masking from other players. BUT - they serve very little purpose otherwise because the AI can see right through it. I have been shot-down by targets that have hid in trees. Not fair ... ... But you can disregard them and fly right through them.

 

 

Vehicles will not react defensively (IE: move to cover) if they are hit or see another unit hit. HOWEVER - they are a bit more aggressive in their attacks and are hidden in area much better.

 

 

Your wingmen in LB were much smarter then BS. The BS ones can send targets after recon, etc-but their attrition rate is high.

 

 

LB had better targeting systems than the BS. The BS is an antiquated system comparatively, but very challenging.

 

 

I would buy it - It's the closest thing to a successor my friend.

 

 

.

 

 

Lionpride, thanks for the comparative data.

 

Is it just trees that are AI transparent? Hopefully hills, buildings, etc. are not and provide cover and sensor blockage?

 

As an additional comment, I would be happy with just moving underfire. The last thing you want to do is stand still.

 

I haven't taken the time to try and get LB up and running under XP yet. I've downloaded and printed the instructions - but just haven't made the time to do it.

 

Thanks again to a fellow rotor-head.

 

To all others, thanks for the comments and info.

 

SNAFU

[Lightning]

As fas as i know the trees are the only AI transparent objects.

Every hill, solid buildings or even vehicles ( moving trains ) give good cover and brake radar locks !

 

The attacked enemy vehicles will only shoot back if you are in range of their weapons. If not .. they stand still like sitting ducks :cry:

 

But you can build complex missions with trigger zones, which allow simultanius actions of the enemy forces.

 

Lets say you fly slowly towards enemy position, but still cannot see any threat.

When reaching trigger zone x , suddenly many infantry units deploy and a AAA batalion spawns somewhere close ( as if they were alerted and activated from hidden bunkers ). You can combine this action with smoke markers and text messages which indicate the ongoing actions and prepare you for the dangers of the mission.

 

As i said the complex and powerfull mission editor allows combats of unequaled realism. There is no better Helicopter sim out there and for sure it will be leading in this simulator section for a long time.

By the upcoming Black Shark patch it will be possible to fly online missions together with other clients who fly fixed wing aircraft ( people who bought Flaming Cliffs 2 ) on one server.

 

What do you want more from a Sim ?

There is no other Helo Sim that can do that !

It is a good invest for Black Shark aswell as for Flaming Cliffs 2.0

Edited April 3, 2010 by Lightning

[LIONPRIDE]

... Not saying there are not, just can't think of any off the top of my head and would love to see the implementation as reference for what we're planning.

 

No off topics please.

 

Thanks

 

I don't have any examples in video format-I perused You Tube for some examples-but from recollection (and I've flown nearly ever helicopter sim since 91), Gunship! (Micropose) implemented a pretty smart AI response with movement.

 

Enemy Engaged (in it's MOD'd form) has some of the most scalable enemy AI that I've seen in regards to aggression and response as well. But in EECH they're relatively immobile until they are called to another mission.

 

 

 

 

 

.

Edited April 3, 2010 by LIONPRIDE

[Wags]

Actually, I did search extensively on this and cannot find any examples in any combat flight sim (including GS! and EECH) that has AI ground units dynamically responding to threats by repositioning themselves (not pre-set trigger). If I missed this, please provide some evidence so that I can evaluate and help improve DCS.

 

Can you give me specific examples of what you like so much in the EECH ground AI that you do not see in BS? I'm talking about the individual unit actions.

 

One of the goals for A-10C is to improve ground AI and we'd like to see what worked and what did not in other simulations outside of our own experiences.

 

Thanks

Edited April 3, 2010 by Wags

[Eddie]

Wags,

 

The only example of ground AI responding to airborne threats that I am aware of is that of Falcon 4 (both 3rd party mods and Allied Force, even going back to the 1998 retail release). I don't know how it's implemented in terms of code, but any ground formation that is able to move under it's own power (essentially everything apart from fixed SAM sites, artillery batteries and the like) will disperse in different directions if attacked from the air.

 

It doesn't matter if they are stationary without orders, or on the move they will still disperse. When they do this seems to vary to some degree, sometimes they will split after one AGM-65 hit, and others they won't react until 2 or 3 units have been destroyed.

 

Now obviously, given the dated nature of the Falcon engine and it's terrain, they do not and could not move to 'cover'. But simply dispersing means that you cannot, for example, carry out a Maverick attack on the high priority threats in a column and then go in with a CBU run on that same column as it simply won't be a column anymore after the initial attack, just a widely dispersed collection of vehicles. This forces the use of, for example high level CCRP based CBU attacks, and more realisticly only being able to obtain parhaps at most 50% attrition of a ground formation.

 

In addition to dispersing, if said gound formmation is not attacked again for a period of time (not sure of the timescales) they will re-form and continue on their way.

 

While this is a pretty simplistic implementation of evasive tactics, and not really what I consider to be true AI it certainly adds a great deal to the immersion in the sim. Whereas currently in DCS, unless a clever mission designer makes some good use of triggers etc, ground units will simply sit still and let you launch ordnance at them all day long, without even so much as deploying smoke carts which are fitted to most armoured vehicles IRL.

 

For me, just having something as basic as AI ground units randomly dispersing and/or deploying smoke when they see surrounding units come under fire would be a big step up in term of both realism and immersion.

 

Now not being a programmer I have no idea how complicated the above is the implement, or if it'd be considered AI or just scripted behaviour. But it would, I feel, be a good place to start.

 

I'm not currently at home, so can't provide screenshots or a video showing the above behaviour, but if it would be at all helpful I'll be happy to do so as soon as I can.

 

Regards

[Wags]

Thanks for the input Eddie. It's been years since I played Falcon. Do you recall what it does when:

 

1- River or some sort of terrain obstacle is close to the formation?

 

2- What if group is in a road march following roads (can't remember if F4 has road follow AI)?

 

3- What if group is located within city? Does it do full path finding?

 

4- So, they just go in a random direction but no attempt to "hide" or break line of sight, yes?

 

5- How far do they disperse? A set number of meters and then sit there?

 

Thanks

[Eddie]

1- River or some sort of terrain obstacle is close to the formation?

 

In my experiance, they just treat the river as a line which cannot be passed. And either go in another direction or (if far enough away from it) just move towards it and then stop when they reach it.

 

2- What if group is in a road march following roads (can't remember if F4 has road follow AI)?

 

They will still split and disperse in all directions, returning to the road after the threat has passed (how it is determined that the threat has passed I do not know).

 

3- What if group is located within city? Does it do full path finding?

 

To be honest I'm not too sure about this one. However, the cities in Falcon are very simplistic compared to those in DCS very much grey terrain colour and a handful of basic 3d buildings, some without roads. I don't usually attack units within urban areas, so would have to confirm this one.

 

4- So, they just go in a random direction but no attempt to "hide" or break line of sight, yes?

 

Correct. Although with Falcon not having any trees (apart from at airfields), very few buildings and not as much terrain elevation detial as DCS, I don't think either would be physically possible anyway.

 

5- How far do they disperse? A set number of meters and then sit there?

 

Again, this I'm not too sure of as I'm very much a "one pass, haul ass" kind of pilot so I'm generally never over the target long enough to see them actually stop moving. But this in itself tells me that it's most likely the case that they break and then continue to move and change direction until the threat passes and they reform. But again, I will confirm and come back to you if it would be useful.

[Wags]

Interesting, thanks. I'll get the CD out of the closet and take a look again. I must have missed all of this before.

[Frederf]

Snafu: DCS:BS is a Ka-50 sim that includes a battlefield to play around in. It is not really a battle sim with a flight sim attached (a la Falcon 4). Fidelity drops as 1/r^2 from the cockpit outward.

 

A MiG that's attacking you will not break off even if you are deep in friendly SAM cover. The AI wingman happily discovers units behind buildings on a recon order. The MBTs will not utilize hide-n-pop tactics. SHORAD will fire on you at max possible range until destroyed or out of ammo... even if you have caused the last 10 missiles to impact an intervening mountain top with a little side step. The briefings are absolutely awful 3 JPG + block of text affairs at best with dictated flight plans. Communications are only to flight or tower, no package, FAC, ground, etc. T-90 tanks always take exactly 2 Vikhr hits.

[EvilBivol-1]

Frederf, I think it's easy to point out holes of a simulation. They all have them. DCS nevertheless allows you to simulate quite realistically the operations of a Ka-50 pilot in a contemporary conflict scenario. Perhaps the true weakness of DCS is that recreating this environment takes well crafted missions created by an individual as opposed to being generated automatically by the simulation, but it can be done and done quite well. This is also one of the DCS strengths.

Edited April 3, 2010 by EvilBivol-1

[Major SNAFU]

Hi all,

 

So I took the plunge, installed and fired it up.

 

So far I am impressed. The list of commands, etc. make this Falcon 4 lifer very happy.

 

As for the battle AI. I second the comments of just having the units under fire disperse, etc. would be nice. I think it would, perhaps, encourage more ralistic engagement tactics on the part of the pilot.

 

Popping smoke and moving is a step in the right direction. Even if you don't know where the fire came from there is much to be said from the addage "speed is life".

 

I wasn't expecting cover seeking like in Battlefront's Combat Mission and/or Shock Force.

 

I guess it would be nice if there was an attempt to break LOS, if a suitable way of determining LOS could be achieve such that it wasn't automatic and all-seeing. Smoke, etc. would have to affect it. This, of course, would eat up CPU that is probably better spent on the KA-50 itself.

 

I can see I have a great deal to learn just to be able to fly and land this helo. Getting one up in the air is not so bad.

 

I was not trying to start an argument here. Thanks for the comments and I can see I will be having a good bit of fun just flying this thing.

 

Are there any servers (looking to the future) where people can gather to practice basic flying, formation, attack timing etc. on a cold battle field?

 

Regards,

 

SNAFU

Edited April 5, 2010 by Major SNAFU

[DetroitDieseL]

I will run a server to practice if you want. Let me know the times you want to practice. Maybe we can cordinate.

[LIONPRIDE]

Actually, I did search extensively on this and cannot find any examples in any combat flight sim (including GS! and EECH) that has AI ground units dynamically responding to threats by repositioning themselves (not pre-set trigger). If I missed this, please provide some evidence so that I can evaluate and help improve DCS.

 

Can you give me specific examples of what you like so much in the EECH ground AI that you do not see in BS? I'm talking about the individual unit actions.

 

One of the goals for A-10C is to improve ground AI and we'd like to see what worked and what did not in other simulations outside of our own experiences.

 

Thanks

 

Well I would, but the gents above seem to be making some good head-way.

 

Thank You gentlemen ...

 

 

.

[Major SNAFU]

@WAGS:

 

On additional comment on Falcon4 that might be worth looking at, if DCS hasn't already implemented something like this, is how the AAA and SAMs command and control works.

 

It is fairly complex and can be "surprised" on an initial attack, but then is alerted. This is good because it really pays off to set up a coordinated, multi-attack vector SEAD mission as the initial surprise plus the time taken to register, traverse and lock to a new target is "well" modeled.

 

In addition, if you take out the "command", then for some AAA and SAM batteries, the individual units can fire independently, but with much degraded accuracy and speed. Again, it really pays to hit the command vehicle first as survivability increases markedly.

 

I love SEAD missions. Absolutely my favorite and so I tend to pay close attention to how these systems are implemented.

 

Please keep in mind that some of this may be enhanced do to the years of modding effort that F4 has gained benefit from. I cannot speak to a fresh install of vanilla - haven't touched that in many years. OpenFalcon and FreeFalcon are where you want to make your comparissons, IMHO.

 

Regards,

 

Maj. SNAFU (since there appears to be another registered poster who uses SNAFU).

Edited April 5, 2010 by Major SNAFU

[Major SNAFU]

I will run a server to practice if you want. Let me know the times you want to practice. Maybe we can cordinate.

 

 

Great. It will take me some time to build up confidence that I am not going to waste your time watching me flounder about. Then I will have a go. Much appreciated.

[Gary]

Question for Wags really,

 

Did anything in this thread help develop DCSW (or module) ?

 

Did you fire up F4 (or BMS etc) to confirm the claims or help improve our sim?

 

Kind Regards,

 

Gary

[BigfootMSR]

Well, we have units that disperse under fire now. It shows progress or that something came out of it. :thumbup: