Are they coming back??

[sobek]

This is why I love TS to be honest with the ability of sub-channels with channel broadcasting.

 

You can stick your 'flights' in sub channels (you and your wingman in one subchannel, others in their own)--you two can communicate all day long really with no worry about bothering anyone, yet there is still the "open" channel to talk with other elements. Just use a little radio discipline with the open channel & you have the ideal comms setup.

 

All of this can easily be incorporated into an ingame system that is controlable via the airframe radio.

[Feuerfalke]

Im a little confused SFJackBauer. What is it your disagreeing with?

 

I think he made it pretty clear that he disagrees with your statement:

 

You can't really do that properly teaming with a jet, even if its a ground pounder, because they have to always be moving forward.

 

 

And I fully agree with him that this statement is wrong as wrong can be. Flying in wings, groups and squadrons was common practice a LONG time before helos were even invented.

[EtherealN]

Besides - they don't have to always move forward. They can turn. :P

[ZQuickSilverZ]

I tend to disagree. Every fighter, attack aircraft or helo is made to be flown in pairs at least

 

Isn't that what I said, that they should be flown in pairs? Im confused because he said he disagrees with me but then said the same thing I did.

 

Feuerfalke I think your the one thats wrong as wrong can be. The whole point of flying with another helo as opposed to a jet is the Helo can hover near you and watch what is around you constantly. Isn't that what a wingman does? That jet is not doing me any good when he is flying over the field at speed, not really able to constantly and consistently feed me information so I can find targets and defend myself. Thats like a sniper's spotter giving targets while zooming around on a motorcycle a mile off. I don't need him a mile off I need him in proximity because I need his situation awareness so I can focus on my task. And I don't want to hear that the aircraft can circle because that creates 3 problems. 1) It is dissorienting to feed targets and directions that way 2) It makes the jet a target from having to fly over the battlefield. 3) It puts my wingman at an unsatisfactory range from me.

[Bucic]

People do fly DCS but to convince someone to use TeamSpeak is almost impossible when those someones are not members of a sqdn. And banging chat window during BS flight is an insult to BS.

[Panzertard]

No, I met alot of new people willing to download TS and use it because they were flying online on my server.

No squad involved there.

 

The people who wouldn't were the one's who had a problem with english, textchat was easier to relate to.

Or people who had their family nearby and didnt want to disturb them.

 

But yes, text is not optimal when you try to cooperate in a combat area.

[sobek]

1) It is dissorienting to feed targets and directions that way 2) It makes the jet a target from having to fly over the battlefield. 3) It puts my wingman at an unsatisfactory range from me.

 

IMHO you erroneously draw these conclusions from believing that in RL, helos hover over the battlefield, which they almost never do.

 

Ad 1) Yes, but that is what training is for, they do that constantly and have equipment to aid.

[Feuerfalke]

I tend to disagree. Every fighter, attack aircraft or helo is made to be flown in pairs at least

 

Isn't that what I said, that they should be flown in pairs? Im confused because he said he disagrees with me but then said the same thing I did.

 

No he doesn't. You say it only works for helos and he disagrees with that quite obvious.

 

Feuerfalke I think your the one thats wrong as wrong can be. The whole point of flying with another helo as opposed to a jet is the Helo can hover near you and watch what is around you constantly. Isn't that what a wingman does?

 

Well, actually watching each others back is just a minimal fraction of what a wingman does.

 

The funny thing about this is, though, that the situation you described is something nice to do in the game, but that's no real helo tactics for several reasons. Hover itself is dangerous, as sobek pointed out. You usually only do that for "longer times" when you are attacking e.g. with a pop-up maneuver. But exactly in this situation the helos are usually separated to attack from different angles and even more important: Do increase survivability.

Because in real life, if you have been spotted, you will be engaged by either mobile AA, Airborne threats or Arty. And if you and your wingman are close together, your a much easier target. Don't let yourself be deceived by the lack of aggressiveness and intelligence of groundunits in BS.

 

In a plane, however, teamwork decides over victory and defeat since WW1.

 

That jet is not doing me any good when he is flying over the field at speed, not really able to constantly and consistently feed me information so I can find targets and defend myself. Thats like a sniper's spotter giving targets while zooming around on a motorcycle a mile off. I don't need him a mile off I need him in proximity because I need his situation awareness so I can focus on my task.

 

Well, here you forget a very simple thing: A jet might be faster, but he also flies a lot higher. So if there is a whole batallion hiding behind a hill, you'll see it, when you fly over it. The aircraft above might see it from ~40nm with an AN/AAQ-33 under good conditions and of course from a much better angle. (But of course a jet is rarely a wingman for a helo... ;) )

 

And I don't want to hear that the aircraft can circle because that creates 3 problems. 1) It is dissorienting to feed targets and directions that way 2) It makes the jet a target from having to fly over the battlefield. 3) It puts my wingman at an unsatisfactory range from me.

 

You really should try other simulations like Falcon, for example. It would be a real eye opener for you in terms of tactical awareness, sharing own positions and targets, detection and lock ranges, wingman tactics against air- and ground-threats. ;)

[Boberro]

Personally I took a break from BS. LO is new, for me as bomber guy there are many new things like new model of damages, rocket pods, new Vikhrs ect. I'll back to BS when ED releases patchLO <-> BS.

[Bucic]

Personally I took a break from BS. LO is new, for me as bomber guy there are many new things like new model of damages, rocket pods, new Vikhrs ect. I'll back to BS when ED releases patchLO <-> BS.

The most important thing about the patch is that BS will be getting the new sound engine :P Today I wasted few hours on 159th dedicated and finally convinced one guy to connect to TS (*pappy from US). We had fun even though we;ve rarely been seeing the target area (some extreme weather conditions contributed to the experience as it highlights BS's great flight model). The others still banging the chat window. They sure are masters of the trimer! ;)

 

Big thanks to 159th and 104th for not password protecting their servers and making their TS servers available too.

Edited April 18, 2010 by Bucic

[Distiler]

perhaps servman can automatically load TS and put players in channels depending coalition , that would be enforced TS XD

TS3 has even lua plugin!

[Booger]

All of this can easily be incorporated into an ingame system that is controlable via the airframe radio.

 

I never suggested otherwise, I was simply stating what is possible (and more practical to use) now.

 

I would love nothing more than to have an in-game comms engine, but the reality is it probably isn't going to happen anytime soon (it seems the initial idea of doing so was dropped).

 

In my humble opinion, the next best thing would be Spinter's TsSimComms, but unfortunately he's ran into difficulty while developing it for TS3. Still, it requires the installation of TS.

 

The last being what I previously suggested. It's the most ideal option to use with the software that we have currently available.

[Boberro]

perhaps servman can automatically load TS and put players in channels depending coalition , that would be enforced TS XD

TS3 has even lua plugin!

 

Heh I would mute all and myself :D

[sobek]

I would love nothing more than to have an in-game comms engine, but the reality is it probably isn't going to happen anytime soon (it seems the initial idea of doing so was dropped).

 

I wouldn't say that. Coff posted that he would very much like to see that feature soon, IIRC.

[HiJack]

I'm thinking things will be more lively when the compatability patch is out. :music_whistling:

Yes, just waiting for that one ;)

I fly some Ka-50 offline but FC2 is definetly taking up most of the time :joystick:

[ZQuickSilverZ]

Feuerfalke I NEVER said that it only worked for helos. I said that I did'nt think it was appropriate to mix jets and helos as wingmen for each other. I know that jets fly as wingmen I see them take off togethor every day (well 5 days a week anyway).

 

"Well, actually watching each others back is just a minimal fraction of what a wingman does.' I feel sorry for whoever your a wingman for if thats how you really feel.

 

Maybee hover is dangerous but you know what else is dangerous? Flying a slow, low flying aircraft over a combat area wich they also never do. Helicopters like to hit and run. Besides, I never stated they Hover over the battlefield, but they dont overfly it either. My point is Helos and Jets fly completely different and one should'nt expect them to be wingmen for each other.

 

"(But of course a jet is rarely a wingman for a helo... ;) )"

 

Exactly. Thats what I was saying from the start. Glad we agree on something.

 

Jets as WIngmen for Helos

 

Flying High in the air is good for overall battlefield situation awareness. The problem is its hard to feed targets that way to a Helo because you can't see the angle (perspective) that the helo is looking from (or even a close proximity). What the Jet Pilot might think is a viable target may in fact be very concealed from the Helo Pilot. It IS good for general information ( I see 5 tanks heading 135). Also the Jet Pilots focus is on the battlefield and not on the Helo. Often you can't look at both at the same time circleing a large area. When your focus is off the helo or its not visable it opens the Helo up for attack (sorry I did'nt see that guy coming at you from the West because I had my attention focused on the target area). Maybee your just super talanted, But I think feeding targets, protecting the Helo, Flying the Jet, Communication, Keeping track of air, ground, and wingman states. all at the same time, and protecting yourself is a lot to ask of a jet pilot when another helo could fill that role so much better.

 

Your Falcon comparison does'nt hold water. First off your flying with other Falcons not helicopters. Second off your "situational" awareness is enhanced by advanced avionics, something the Blackshark does'nt have. Im sure if my Blackshark had radar, and fire and forget missles, and more advanced enemy fire detection systems I would have GREAT situational awareness too, but I don't have those things. My Sensors are a laser detector and my own eyes. The last thing I want is a radar guided missle coming at me when I am trying to target and pilot and my wingman is 40 NM away flying in circles.

 

I stand by what I said.

[Feuerfalke]

I'm sorry if I didn't get your initial point, but it seems I'm not the only one. One reason might be, that your arguments are based on reality, but referring to a game and that you have a strange view on tactics and military mixed branches operations.

 

I feel sorry for whoever your a wingman for if thats how you really feel.

No need to. Mostly I am the wingman and I enjoy flying with people who know how to utilize teamtactics, brevity codes and situational awareness. Be it WW1, WW2 or modern air combat. The principle is the same and it goes FAR beyond just watching each others back.

 

Besides, I never stated they Hover over the battlefield, but they dont overfly it either.

Ahem...

The whole point of flying with another helo as opposed to a jet is the Helo can hover near you and watch what is around you constantly.

 

 

To be honest, I think that you mix up a lot of things, settings, reality and game.

An example: What is a battlefield for you? An area where enemy and allied forces are engaged? Then I'd got to tell you, that your statement is definitely not a true statement. In asymetric battles like the current in Iraq or Afghanistan, both helo and jets fly very well directly above the engagement areas.

If you have a Fulda-Gap-Scenario in mind, neither will overfly the combat area as a general rule. Both, helo and jet will use their standoff-weapons until AA- and CAP capability of the enemy has been reduced.

 

Besides that, your idea of tactical communications is pretty limited to the game as it currently is modeled and entirely based on basic TS. Good missions can do a lot more, though. As in real life, ground-forces can assign missions to you, call for support, lase or mark them with smoke, same is for AI and player CAS-aircraft, which will work together with you on eliminating the targets. (Possible in F4AF as well). Who knows, they might even share laser-designated targets in FC2/BS-server? And what did you learn to program new target-points and way-points for in the Ka-50?

 

Long story short:

To state that a jet and a helo are no wingmen is non-sense, they never are, but to say they can't work together is just ignorant. In real life they do for decades, in a simulation that isn't a total failure, it should work as well - and it does, depending on the people flying, of course. A lone gunzo-dogfighter and a lone rotorhead probably don't mix.

Edited April 18, 2010 by Feuerfalke

[ZQuickSilverZ]

Perhaps I should have chosen my words more carefully. I didnt mean Hover as in litterly Hovering in one spot not moving. That was a luangage error on my part. I meant Hovering as in staying at a constant close proximity. Like say if your driving a car and you can't change lanes because the car in the next lane is matching your speed and blocking you, you speed up he speeds up you slow down he slows down. You would say that car is hovering on you. Or say someone is following you around constantly, you would say they were hovering around you, because they are always in close proximity. At any rate what I was really trying to get across is that a Helo can stay in proximity with another Helo alot better than a jet can.

 

As far as flying over the combat area, IN GAME most combat areas have anti air capable ground vehicles . I was applying that scenerio to real life tactics since that is the scenerio we most often encounter. You would'nt fly over an area with anti air capability. It's too dangerous. The Helo is too slow and too low Im sure if your attacking transport ground vehicles and infaltry fly overs might be acceptable. Personally I wouldn't do it.

 

"To state that a jet and a helo are no wingmen is non-sense,(How is it nonsense if they never are?) they never are, but to say they can't work together is just ignorant (I never said they can't work together, I just eluded that it wasn't an optimal configuration to have to depend on a jet to do wingman duties for a helicopter or vice versa)."

 

Long story short I never said they can't work together. All military has to work together to some degree. I'm not going to dismiss information just because it origionated from a jet, thats stupid. I said that a Helo/Helo combo is much better for a wingman setup than a Helo/Jet combo, and that specific types of aircraft should be flown in at least pairs (unless you have a pair escorting another specialized aircraft). Thats the only thing I said. I don't see why your so bent on correcting me by repeating what I said before as a counter Its like I am saying the sun is yellow and you quote me and come back with an arguement that the sun is yellow. Your logic eludes me.. Except for the error in using the word hovering (to which you had a valid point) I don't see what the arguement is.

Edited April 19, 2010 by ZQuickSilverZ

[coder1024]

I think having FC2/BS multiplayer compatibility will be awesome, not necessarily so you can have a BS and fixed wing in the same flight as wingman, but so you can coordinate multiplayer packages with a flight of BS and a flight of fixed wing to work together.

[ZQuickSilverZ]

coder1024 I totally agree. Im looking forward to it to. It will be awsome.

[Feuerfalke]

ZQuickSilverZ, I think the main problem is the vocabulary. Hover or staying in close proximity, wingman or teamwork, battlefield or enemy territory, battlefield or engagement area, low and slow from a helo vs low and slow from a jet, tactics in real-life vs tactics ingame, threat for aircraft or enemy units, asymetric warfare scenarios and WW3 scenarios, etc.

 

 

So, in general, you are probably right. In general everybody is somehow. You're probably even right with what you mean. But your descriptions and generalizations from those, sorry, IMHO that's a different story.

[ScEBlack1]

I love BlackShark and all it has to offer as far as the complexity of it, the learning curves and incredible flight model and graphics, but, after flying online for awhile it became very static for me, partly due to the missions designs but shooting at a group of non-moving tanks or even tanks moving in a particular direction get's boring after awhile, standing off at weapon range and plinking tanks and humvees was not my idea of fun and very quickly gets old. I love flying the helo high and low and all the great fun to be had with it, but, coming from LO and years and years of online head to head combat I was missing that, now that 2.0 is out and it is great to be a jet pilot again I took a break from BS, when the patch comes out to play online with the jets it will be fun again due to the human element and having to evade other threats besides standing just outside range and shooting tanks.

[Bucic]

Some MP missions are so quake that 90% of the fun comes from flying along the route with buddy on TS/Ventrilo.

[Feuerfalke]

Some MP missions are so quake that 90% of the fun comes from flying along the route with buddy on TS/Ventrilo.

 

Sad but true. :(

[Bucic]

Additionally to poor missions some briefing suck bigtime! I don't expect them to be professional or with extensive reconnaissance materials but for me when there's no briefing map then there's no briefing at all.