The Collective

[ZQuickSilverZ]

Has anybody heard ANYTHING about any company releasing a collective. I mean using a hotas designed for jets isn't exactly the same is it? Any of you sim pit builders looking to go into business (Oakes I'm staring a hole through you right now :noexpression:)? They could sell modules or step by step plans. I know CH products sells a USB single axis that can be used as a collective that is customizable but im not sure if you can fit it to blackshark specs (or future releases). OK LISTEN UP GAME CONTROLLER COMPANIES WE NEED A COLLECTIVE WITH CUSTOMIZABLE BUTTON LAYOUTS. Like handles that can be changed out for instance. Jets have had HOTAS set ups for years its the helo pilots turn to get some love. (LOGITECH THIS MEANS YOU) Can we maybee email some of these companies enmasse and ask them to deliver?

[71st_Mastiff]

I dont think Logitech or Saitek look at this forum? But here an oldie but goodie, you probably missed. I wont spoil it for you either about what happen to this man.. lol

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8150318900853973261#

[Slayer]

There are several out there but they are for real training or are enthusiast hardware, here's one.

 

http://www.maxflightstick.com/

 

There was another system demoed before by ED at a show in England also but I can't find the link just google it.

[ZQuickSilverZ]

Im not talking about $500 - $800 dollar set ups. Those are commercial use style products anyway (meaning commercial, non military helos). I am talking about a mass market collective made by one of the popular controller companies (Logitech, Saitek, CH Products, whatever). I might pay $100 to $200 dollars for one (honestly were only talking about 1 axis here with maybee a twist handle and a few butoons, maybee a hat switch or 2). No I don't think logitech looks at these forums. Thats just my prefrence of maker. I think if they got 25 emails in one week though it might get someones attention.

[EtherealN]

At that price point it's highly unlikely - the market for it is too small to cover the development at those prices, I suspect. (Or at least they are likely to think it is, since most rotary simmers use regular joysticks/HOTAS kits.)

[XarBat]

There are several out there but they are for real training or are enthusiast hardware, here's one.

 

http://www.maxflightstick.com/

 

There was another system demoed before by ED at a show in England also but I can't find the link just google it.

 

Nice find, even though they are definitely not suitable for combat aircraft; it is good to know that their are helicopter specific controls at that price point.

[ZQuickSilverZ]

There are several out there but they are for real training or are enthusiast hardware, here's one.

 

http://www.maxflightstick.com/

 

There was another system demoed before by ED at a show in England also but I can't find the link just google it.

 

Thank you Slayer for the trouble you took to post the link. It is appreciated just not what I was looking for.

[ZQuickSilverZ]

At that price point it's highly unlikely - the market for it is too small to cover the development at those prices, I suspect. (Or at least they are likely to think it is, since most rotary simmers use regular joysticks/HOTAS kits.)

 

Your probably right about the market being too small. I would think the development for a single axis stick (2 with throttle control) wich is basically what a collective is, would be minimal. I mean sticks now have 3 or 4 axes (4 being a built in slider throttle). Hell the G940 is a whole system with a forcefeedback stick for $299.99. I feel if they can offer a whole system for $299.99 (even though its for a large audience) that the prices I said I would pay are not that out there. Also they would not have to write new drivers for it. I mean honestly there isn't much difference between the throttles they offer now and a collective except the mechanics of how it works. They do the same function. Back to your point though the customer base may be too small to pay for this "reconfiguration", but they would'nt have any competition either.

[HitchHikingFlatlander]

Well that is the state of affairs for simulation input devices (we take what we can get or build it). That said you can build a pretty convincing collective from a Saitek AV8R stick. Check out this thread on how to do it. The project doesn't cost much more than the initial price of the stick too!

 

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2711990/Re_A_Good_Joystick_to_Hack.html#Post2711990

 

Just scroll through, I should add you DO NOT need to take the thing apart even. I only dismantled mine to pull the spring out in case I ever wanted to use it as a stick again. It was a complete waste of time the AV8R will forever remain a collective! Feel free to ask any questions

[ZQuickSilverZ]

How do you keep it in one place if you have to remove your hand momentarily?

Edited January 7, 2011 by ZQuickSilverZ

[ericinexile]

Why do you need a collective? Don't mean to insult you as everyone is allowed their preferences but I wouldn't buy one even if available. I prefer a throttle and it has the advantage of being useable in non-rotary sims. The market for helo-exclusive and clutter accepting gamers is extremely small and therefore the pricepoint would need to be extremely large. I think the chances are slim to none unless you are really good with ducttape and a Swiss army knife.

[HitchHikingFlatlander]

How do you keep it in one place if you have to remove your had momentarily?

 

The two pcs of wood on each side of the shaft (you got me to type shaft lol) is lined with the felt side of velcro tape. It's basically just pinched and has never moved on its own. I originally used the adhesive weather stripping you use on an exterior door but it grabbed way too much and developed divots that the shaft (thats twice lol) falls into and hinders movement. Since applying velcro tape its perfect. Remember that the AV8R is a very lightweight joystick so it doesn't require much pressure to hold it in place.

 

All I used were the two pcs of wood, two pcs of plexiglass and the velcro. You just have to be careful and accurate when drilling the holes into the base. I could give more details if you're interested in trying it.

 

I also have to add that you can program most of the real KA-50 collective controls to the AV8R too even though you have to use your imagination. I use the dual throttles for the shark throttles or the trigger for collective brake for instance. In any case it works for great for my needs.

[hannibal]

once u go collective, u NEVER want to use a a throttle again to flyy helo's....

 

IT IS DEFINITELY DIFFERENT... MUCH BETTER

 

[Waldo_II]

$5 solution, anyone? Half the feel at a twentieth of the price!

[ZQuickSilverZ]

once u go collective, u NEVER want to use a a throttle again to flyy helo's....

 

IT IS DEFINITELY DIFFERENT... MUCH BETTER

 

 

What kind of monitor is that your using for the ABRIS? Ever thought of using a touch screen?

Edited May 20, 2010 by ZQuickSilverZ

[XarBat]

What does the collective lever do in game?

 

$5 solution, anyone? Half the feel at a twentieth of the price!

 

Not for me, I have a CH Pro Throttle. Very, very weak resistance.:(

 

Hold on wait a second; a could buy a commercial throttle that was made for the left hand. mount it vertically right beside me; and then I could use it as a collective for the right hand. That is if the thing that attaches it to the base is not too thick and is long enough. But then it would not feel right at all having something with halfway decent resistance in my right hand and my CH Fighterstick in my left.

 

EDIT: So if I understand correctly, the collective lever, also called a brake is used to set a new altitude when an autopilot function that holds altitude is on. So if all the autopilot functions that hold altitude are off, the collective lever does nothing, right?

Edited May 20, 2010 by XarBat

[HitchHikingFlatlander]

No the collective lever controls the power to the rotor blades in a helo which makes it go up and down (more or less). Next to the cyclic there is probably no more important a control in a helo save rudder pedals. The throttles in the KA-50 are automatic, that adjust power with collective control movements. A collective controller may not be for everyone (to each their own) but for some (like me and Hannibal up above) once you go collective you never go back, I haven't yet.....

 

The brake is a component of the collective to hold the lever at a desired setting (more or less). And the collective brake lever is part of the autopilot system that does in fact hold altitude. But they both compliment each other and the collective is still the primary control you'd use to go up/down regardless of the autopilot functions. I think that if the A/P was off the collective "brake" would serve no purpose.

 

Apologies in advance for any guesswork contained above!

Edited May 21, 2010 by HitchHikingFlatlander

[EtherealN]

Correction, even though it's probably just semantics: collective does NOT control the "power" to the rotor blades. It's a "collective" input of angle-of-attack - that is, it applies an AoA setting collectively to all blades with no regard to where in the rotation they are, as opposed to the cyclic which applies differential AoA input depending on the blade's position in the rotation.

 

It's important to remember that collective has nothing to do with power, it's pure AoA. Power is derived from the throttles, which in the Ka-50 are automatic.

[HitchHikingFlatlander]

LOL Way off on my part! But I was right about the collective being the control that makes the helo go up or down. In any case thanks for the correction good learning experience for me, ouch that ruler hurts.

 

EDIT: Guess my pre-apology was well founded!

[XarBat]

By collective lever, I meant the lever attached to the collective, not the whole collective. In the manual it says that it is used to change the altitude that the autopilot is assigned to hold. I think the altitude hold autopilot is disengaged during the time the lever is squeezed and during this time you can move the collective up or down and watch your altitude; and when you are at the altitude you want you release the lever, and the autopilot will try to hold that alt.

[Frederf]

The collective brake (keyboard default F) serves two functions. First, it is a physical clutch that keeps the collective lever from rising or falling when not squeezed.

 

Second, when squeezed the ALT channel's hold function is suspended. The hold on the ALT channel resumes with the newly captured current altitude (BR/RD switch decides) when when the brake is released.

 

The real Ka-50 pilot has to squeeze the collective brake every time he moves the collective because of the physical resistance when the brake is relaxed.