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Conure
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Hi all,

 

 

Thought I'd introduce myself as is the only polite thing to do before asking endless questions...

 

I've been into flight sims for about a decade now (and think I just missed the Jane's sims people talk about!). I've played a fair bit of each MSF as they have come out, and a small amount of IL2. I decided I wanted a new one and came across Wings of Prey, which whilst fun (and beautiful) didn't really have any depth for realism. After a bit of a search I came to this, and think I've jumped in at the deep end, especially after watching the startup tutorial!

 

Anyway, my only question right now is: Just how realistic is this? I understand most of us haven't ever flown a real Russian attack chopper, but is this generally regarded as the most realistic chopper sim?

 

Thanks all,

 

Conure

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Welcome. :)

 

And yes, DCS:BS is as realistic as you can get in a commercial product today. To get anything "better" you need actual military simulators. (Though they may or may not be more realistic in various areas depending on what their intended purpose us.)

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Thanks very much for the reply :)

 

In the tutorials, the pilots head moves around to look at various instruments, not the standard hatswitch movement, but physically within the cockpit. I'm under the impression this is something to do with trackIR? I don't have that, is it possible to move around the cockpit with keyboard commands?

 

Thanks

Intel i7 6700k, Asus GTX1070, 16gb DDR4 @ 3200mhz, CH Fighterstick, CH Pro Throttle, CH Pro Rudder Pedals, Samsung Evo 850 SSD @ 500GB * 2, TrackIR 5 and 27" monitor running at 2560 * 1440, Windows 10.

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Thanks very much for the reply :)

 

In the tutorials, the pilots head moves around to look at various instruments, not the standard hatswitch movement, but physically within the cockpit. I'm under the impression this is something to do with trackIR? I don't have that, is it possible to move around the cockpit with keyboard commands?

 

Thanks

 

Yes and yes. :)

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Thanks very much for the reply :)

 

In the tutorials, the pilots head moves around to look at various instruments, not the standard hatswitch movement, but physically within the cockpit. I'm under the impression this is something to do with trackIR? I don't have that, is it possible to move around the cockpit with keyboard commands?

 

Thanks

 

If you have the funds a Track IR is a great investment, it will make a world of difference. Welcome aboard

 

 

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but if you want real feeling to fly you need trackir ,black shhark without track ir is same when you play car sim without wheel :) .

 

One my friend who fly real chopper test my home cockpit he say thats feel like real think. He not fly military choper but feeling is same like real chopper , and damn he fly after 5 minutes bs , so good so i can\tell if you can fly real chopper , then bs is easy to fly.

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Thanks very much for the reply :)

 

In the tutorials, the pilots head moves around to look at various instruments, not the standard hatswitch movement, but physically within the cockpit. I'm under the impression this is something to do with trackIR? I don't have that, is it possible to move around the cockpit with keyboard commands?

 

Thanks

 

Try this key combo when your in the cockpit... L-Alt + C

That will allow you to use your mouse to look around and click the switches,buttons,ect. and zoom in/out with the mouse wheel.

Also holding the middle mouse button down while moving the mouse will move your perspective* about.


Edited by Patriot*CFS*
posted before morning coffee...
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Hi Conure! Welcome :). Lots of very talented and informative people here.

You'll be hooked, if not already!

Now, if TrackIR is a tad beyond your means at the moment, then the alternative that many have taken up is Freetrack.

If you are not anxious about using a soldering iron, then this will help a lot. ;).

Good Hunting!

Rectum non bustus

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I'll definitely look into the TrackIR when funds allow (I am a poor student at the moment!).

 

Does anybody have any techniques for learning how to effectively fly the chopper? I'm trying to memorise sections of the cockpit at the moment, but still suffering from things like 'now it's flying, now it isn't, and I've got absolutely no clue why!'.

 

I sense many, many hours of learning ahead.

Intel i7 6700k, Asus GTX1070, 16gb DDR4 @ 3200mhz, CH Fighterstick, CH Pro Throttle, CH Pro Rudder Pedals, Samsung Evo 850 SSD @ 500GB * 2, TrackIR 5 and 27" monitor running at 2560 * 1440, Windows 10.

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Thanks astrospud, I'll check that out - it looks like it's basically a toned down version of TrackIR using a webcam, is that right?

Intel i7 6700k, Asus GTX1070, 16gb DDR4 @ 3200mhz, CH Fighterstick, CH Pro Throttle, CH Pro Rudder Pedals, Samsung Evo 850 SSD @ 500GB * 2, TrackIR 5 and 27" monitor running at 2560 * 1440, Windows 10.

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well i think, the only way you can earn skills, is to practicefor many hours.., there are a couple of hints given, how to start best.. ithink..hovering, trimming, navigation,..and then weapon systems should be correct way...

 

as you will learn the systems best step by step...

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I just checked out TrackIR....It looks incredible..If only I had the money...Nevermind, for now I can practice just turning the heli on!

Intel i7 6700k, Asus GTX1070, 16gb DDR4 @ 3200mhz, CH Fighterstick, CH Pro Throttle, CH Pro Rudder Pedals, Samsung Evo 850 SSD @ 500GB * 2, TrackIR 5 and 27" monitor running at 2560 * 1440, Windows 10.

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Thanks astrospud, I'll check that out - it looks like it's basically a toned down version of TrackIR using a webcam, is that right?

 

Yeah, Freetrack offers similar function to the full commercial product, but using a hacked webcam and some LED's.

However, I have read that some folk fly happily with top hat POV controls to look around.

Of course you don't get the same degree of situational awareness as with TIR, but you can get by...

Of course, when you do get TIR/Freetrack, you'll never go back to POV buttons! :thumbup:

Rectum non bustus

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agree, you ll never get backl to any buttons for viewcontrols!)

 

i think freetrack is easy to build, i think urze, or someone else made a tutorial how to build and setup freetrack devices..i use tir4..it s a pleasure..

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with freetrack you can use wiimote whiich is wii gamecontroller , u need bluetootth and bluesoil bluetooth program and you get 100fps camera what calculate ir dots in camera and not use cpu power like webcam. I use wiim ote and freetrack

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But a wiimote costs almost as much as a TrackIR... :P

 

Conure, my tip for learning to fly and fight in the Shark is to never, ever, give in to the temptation to learn two things at the same time. If you do not feel in control flying it there's no point trying to learn navigation at the same time - you'll just end up overloading yourself and learn neither. Select something to learn and spend a couple hours with it - then turn the sim off and let it stew in your head for an hour before you try the same again to see if you retained it.

 

Some flight behaviours that you might want to read up on because they can seem very very mysterious at first: Rotor Vortex Ring State and Rotor Disc Intersection. The previous is (basically) that your helicopter is in it's own downwash - this can happen when you are going slow and descending quickly, and is extremely dangerous. Just pulling more collective won't save you, it'll just make it worse - getting more airspeed (nose forward) to get up above 50km/h is what'll save you.

 

Rotor Disc Intersection is usually caused by flying too fast and pulling to hard on rudder. Caused by the rotor discs going opposite directions. If going fast any hard maneuver should be accompanied with a very rapid decrease in collective.

 

And don't hesitate if you run into problems. A tip: if you find something not doing as you expect, remember to click the "save track" button afterwards. You can then upload the track file here and people can look through it to see if you are doing something wrong. Very handy. :)

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But a wiimote costs almost as much as a TrackIR... :P

 

Conure, my tip for learning to fly and fight in the Shark is to never, ever, give in to the temptation to learn two things at the same time. If you do not feel in control flying it there's no point trying to learn navigation at the same time - you'll just end up overloading yourself and learn neither. Select something to learn and spend a couple hours with it - then turn the sim off and let it stew in your head for an hour before you try the same again to see if you retained it.

 

Some flight behaviours that you might want to read up on because they can seem very very mysterious at first: Rotor Vortex Ring State and Rotor Disc Intersection. The previous is (basically) that your helicopter is in it's own downwash - this can happen when you are going slow and descending quickly, and is extremely dangerous. Just pulling more collective won't save you, it'll just make it worse - getting more airspeed (nose forward) to get up above 50km/h is what'll save you.

 

Rotor Disc Intersection is usually caused by flying too fast and pulling to hard on rudder. Caused by the rotor discs going opposite directions. If going fast any hard maneuver should be accompanied with a very rapid decrease in collective.

 

And don't hesitate if you run into problems. A tip: if you find something not doing as you expect, remember to click the "save track" button afterwards. You can then upload the track file here and people can look through it to see if you are doing something wrong. Very handy. :)

 

 

Thank you very much, that has been extremely useful. The Rotor Vortex Ring State you mentioned is what I think I suffered first time - I've been trying to recreate it so I can try to recover, but no luck yet!

 

I'm finding on simulator settings what the machine is still quite easy to control, and strangely similar to a normal airplane. I think I have all sim settings on, but I remember playing a game a LONG time ago, in which even taking off was extremely difficult (Apache Versus Havoc, I think it was called).

 

Is the handling pretty similar to a plane? Tilt forward to speed up, rudder left and right to turn (but more so in a heli). - I think I'm decent enough at flying to start learning some other stuff now..Where to start!

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Handling once at speed is very similar to a fixed-wing, yeah. The Ka-50 also has relatively powerful damper/assist channels in the autopilot that are kept on. Turn off the "three blue" at the lower right panel and it gets more difficult. (Though note that this is not something the real Ka-50 pilots are allowed to do on purpose, but it's nice for training emergency procedures since battle damage can indeed take out your AP channels.)

 

The parameters to recreate a Rotor Vortex Ring State is less than 50 km/h forward speed and more than 5 meters per second sink rate. Do it at high altitude and you'll find the chopper start shaking. If you are quick enough to pull collective up just as it begins you might get yourself out of it with "brute-force", but otherwise you have to put nose forward and get speed back up above 50km/h and then adc collective.

 

The differences in flying compared to fixed wing are in transitions (going between hover and forward flight and vice versa) and the low-speed maneuvers where your aircraft is relatively unstable.

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Thanks very much, you guys are invaluable!

 

One last question though (I promise)..

 

This is my first real heli sim, and I'm a huge fan of fixed wing aircraft. I've just seen an advert for Flaming Cliffs 2 - Is this a product in itself, or an addon? It says something about it being an update to the original. I understand that it isn't quite as realistic as this, due to the number of aircraft. Is it still very realistic? Finally, is it better to just focus on black shark for now? I realise I've got a lot to learn in this and don't want to overwhelm myself, perhaps also getting Flaming Cliffs 2 will be a bit too much!

 

Advice appreciated and I will ask no further questions!!

 

Thank you

Intel i7 6700k, Asus GTX1070, 16gb DDR4 @ 3200mhz, CH Fighterstick, CH Pro Throttle, CH Pro Rudder Pedals, Samsung Evo 850 SSD @ 500GB * 2, TrackIR 5 and 27" monitor running at 2560 * 1440, Windows 10.

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welcome to the show,there are a few things tht you should no about fly'n the shark. the trim is your best friend learn how to use the control indcator(rt ctrl and enter)it will help you fly. you will also learn tht rt turns are made with care..lol you will find out why on your own..but i think your best bet is dwnld a comms program like teamspeak(you will need a mic)get on a good server and talk to other drivers you will find that most of the folks are great there are a few sic ass pups in the bunch. but hell tht just makes it that much more fun...as far as FC2 its great if you like fast movers well worth it weight in gold..lol


Edited by slowhand

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Flaming Cliffs 2 is a separate product. To get it you would first need to purchase a copy of Lock On: Modern Air Combat. It should be available at major online retailers as well as at ED's own site (http://lockon.co.uk/index.php?end_pos=1322&scr=shop). If you live in north america, there will be a bundle released with LOMAC and FC2 on DVD. FC2 will be released on it's lonesome for DVD in other territories and you would then have to purchase a LOMAC copy as well. You do not need FC1, though FC1 and FC2 have only partial overlap in terrain (FC1 has the Crimea but FC2 has more of Georgia and the russian caucasus).

 

Realism in FC2 is a few steps below DCS:BS, as you noticed due to it being a "survey simulator" (having multiple aircraft). Most of the planes use the older "SFM" - the "Standard Flight Model" whereas the Su-25 and Su-25T utilizes the AFM ("Advanced Flight Model") which is closer in realism to what you see in DCS:BS.

 

DCS:BS and FC2 are, however, compatible online, so you can connect to FC2 servers with your DCS:BS installation if they have slots in the mission for the Shark, but obviously you would be limited to flying the Shark.

 

In my opinion FC2 is a great deal of fun even though it doesn't have the same level of realism in flight modeling and avionics. (No clickable cockpit either.) But at so many aircraft at that low price I still think it's a good buy.

 

If you want high realism fixed-wing action, you can also hold out a while for the next DCS product, which will feature the A10C Warthog (the new upgraded version with the Precision Engagement package). However, that product does not yet have a release date and it might be a while.

 

But until then I don't think you should hold off on getting FC2. If you like fastmovers the fact that the simulation is more lightweight can be a good break from long training sessions in the shark.

 

Oh, and no worries about having many questions mate. Asking questions is a good way to learn and get some direction, since there might always be something you didn't think about investigating.

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Daniel "EtherealN" Agorander | Даниэль "эфирныйн" Агорандер

Intel i7 2600K @ 4.4GHz, ASUS Sabertooth P67, 8GB Corsair Vengeance @ 1600MHz, ASUS GTX 560Ti DirectCU II 1GB, Samsung 830series 512GB SSD, Corsair AX850w, two BENQ screens and TM HOTAS Warthog

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Thanks again mate,

 

I think I'll leave it for now then and just focus on Black Shark. I just found out they removed the tutorial missions in 1.02, that's annoying as I've heard it has a lot of big improvements. Nevermind!

 

Speaking of playing online, is it a very active community? I've love to start playing online when I've got to grips with the Shark. Do you play online? would be great to join some of you guys at some point...

 

Cheers,

 

Conure

Intel i7 6700k, Asus GTX1070, 16gb DDR4 @ 3200mhz, CH Fighterstick, CH Pro Throttle, CH Pro Rudder Pedals, Samsung Evo 850 SSD @ 500GB * 2, TrackIR 5 and 27" monitor running at 2560 * 1440, Windows 10.

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Yes, I mostly fly on either the 104th dedicated server or on internal squad training sessions. As for how active - I've found that it depends a lot on time zone. On the "western" servers things kind of die out after the americans start logging off, and the russians (lots of them) tend to run on the russian servers. But as long as you don't want to fly early morning CET or such you should be fine.

 

And yeah, the tutorials were in track format which is a bit unwieldy, since it tends to get broken whenever a patch is made and then Wags has to re-do them. I think his sanity was tested enough in making all 104 missions of the Georgian Oil War campaign on his own, so for now you can access notes and tutorial tracks on his Youtube channel and as downloads from the site. URL's below:

 

Wags Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/wagmatt

Producer note downloads: http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/index.php?scr=products&end_pos=133&lang=en&page=3

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Daniel "EtherealN" Agorander | Даниэль "эфирныйн" Агорандер

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Yes, I mostly fly on either the 104th dedicated server or on internal squad training sessions. As for how active - I've found that it depends a lot on time zone. On the "western" servers things kind of die out after the americans start logging off, and the russians (lots of them) tend to run on the russian servers. But as long as you don't want to fly early morning CET or such you should be fine.

 

And yeah, the tutorials were in track format which is a bit unwieldy, since it tends to get broken whenever a patch is made and then Wags has to re-do them. I think his sanity was tested enough in making all 104 missions of the Georgian Oil War campaign on his own, so for now you can access notes and tutorial tracks on his Youtube channel and as downloads from the site. URL's below:

 

Wags Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/wagmatt

Producer note downloads: http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/index.php?scr=products&end_pos=133&lang=en&page=3

 

 

Those Youtube videos are excellent! Tonight is going to involve a laptop, my desktop, and a lot of learning!

 

Thanks very much, can't wait to get started!

 

Conure

Intel i7 6700k, Asus GTX1070, 16gb DDR4 @ 3200mhz, CH Fighterstick, CH Pro Throttle, CH Pro Rudder Pedals, Samsung Evo 850 SSD @ 500GB * 2, TrackIR 5 and 27" monitor running at 2560 * 1440, Windows 10.

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A side note, the producer notes videos are on the BS dvd under a folder named " video ". I copied them over to my hard drive for easy access.

Don B

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