IGLA

[Divinity10]

Does anyone else find these much harder to dodge than medium/long range SAMs?

 

I don't even think it's the missile that's harder to dodge, I think it's the fact they seem to launch around 1.5 miles and give you about 3 seconds to evade. The fact they are infantry makes it even harder as they don't stand out from the crowd like most other SAM's do. No idea what I'd do without using the TGP to check each soldier's weapons.

 

Anyone got any evasive technqiues to dodge these buggers? Normal SAMS are fine, but IGLA's...So annoying. (Not getting in range would be the top idea but I mean for when they manage to get a drop on you).

[LordWolf]

Fly higher!

[Divinity10]

Fly higher!

 

I generally do. My question was, under the circumstance where you ARE shot at by an Igla, what are the techniques (if there are any).

[Boberro]

Igla is small and quite fast. I wish they were like Stingers, easy to evade even by one flare :)

If you fly A-10 you have easier you can turn away spreading flares out.... in Su-25T flares go up (really weird idea -.-) and by that they aren't so useful. Try doing what need to be done. Flares and many manoeuvres it is all you can do. Sometimes you can use altitude to aim missile hit the ground by flying steeply down after missile had been fired.

Edited December 3, 2010 by Boberro

[nomdeplume]

I think the main defense is to guess when you may be engaged by these short-range IR missiles, and start popping flares before you enter their engagement area. That's why the classic videos of e.g. Hind gunships always shows them spewing flares when they make their runs. You can diminish the ability for the firer to even lock onto your aircraft by doing that.

 

I'm not sure how exactly it's modeled in DCS, but if you're up for some experimenting, it could be interesting to try out various combinations of # flares and release intervals on ingress to see what effect it has on Iglas.

 

I also wonder how accurate the implementations are. Stingers seem almost trivial to evade compared to the Iglas. Is the Igla really that superior?

[159th_Viper]

....Is the Igla really that superior?

 

Does not get any nastier than the Igla-S (SA-24 Grinch).

[Divinity10]

Igla is small and quite fast. I wish they were like Stingers, easy to evade even by one flare :)

If you fly A-10 you have easier you can turn away spreading flares out.... in Su-25T flares go up (really weird idea -.-) and by that they aren't so useful. Try doing what need to be done. Flares and many manoeuvres it is all you can do. Sometimes you can use altitude to aim missile hit the ground by flying steeply down after missile had been fired.

 

Yeah they're right lil' bastards to shake. The only way I've managed it so far was by turning + diving so hard I almost stalled lol. Better than exploding I guess. I'll give the steep dive a go though, thanks.

 

I think the main defense is to guess when you may be engaged by these short-range IR missiles, and start popping flares before you enter their engagement area. That's why the classic videos of e.g. Hind gunships always shows them spewing flares when they make their runs. You can diminish the ability for the firer to even lock onto your aircraft by doing that.

 

I'm not sure how exactly it's modeled in DCS, but if you're up for some experimenting, it could be interesting to try out various combinations of # flares and release intervals on ingress to see what effect it has on Iglas.

 

I also wonder how accurate the implementations are. Stingers seem almost trivial to evade compared to the Iglas. Is the Igla really that superior?

 

I did a load of test runs earlier with flares etc, it's insane how often they just ignore flares and just take half your wing off or engine. I managed to dodge a few of them but that was only when I turned before they fired. If the IGLA fired first I was pretty screwed. Even with 4 flares, 0.50 interval and 10 cycles, it still manages to hit halfway through my turn.

I noticed dropping the nose and lowering my engines to reduce their temp helped the counter measures take effect more often but not by much.

 

I can imagine these having a 99% kill rate IF the pilot isn't expecting the IGLA...there's literally zero chance for evasion. By far the hardest AA in the game so far (imo).

Edited December 3, 2010 by Divinity10

[sobek]

It seems that we are approaching more realistic MANPAD behaviour now. The trick should be to pop flares prophylactically to deny the MANPAD a lock, because the flare rejection on those buggers makes it next to impossible to shake them once they have a solid lock on you.

[159th_Viper]

It seems that we are approaching more realistic MANPAD behaviour now....

 

Quite so.

 

Not called the 'Needle' for nothing.......Never see the wee fc#ker until it pricks you :ranting:

[sobek]

Quite so.

 

After all those 'one of these days' comments, GG must be dancing around like a frog in a ventilator.

[EtherealN]

He is. :)

 

But yeah, my spontaneous reaction here was: "why are you getting within 1.5 miles of a hot zone"? That should be restricted to desperation-moves, and then you should assume missiles are headed for you and spam pre-emptively. Remember: it is always better to deny the shot than to evade it.

[Divinity10]

He is. :)

 

But yeah, my spontaneous reaction here was: "why are you getting within 1.5 miles of a hot zone"? That should be restricted to desperation-moves, and then you should assume missiles are headed for you and spam pre-emptively. Remember: it is always better to deny the shot than to evade it.

 

Oh I agree, but I'm practising for such events as ambushes...or hidden Igla's out from an objective. The cannon is pretty much at it's most effective at 1.5 miles and under and at a 30 degree bank if I'm not mistaken. When I make my missions, I tend to add in AA/AAA away from the main objectives etc, such as a hidden samsite in a forest 5 miles from the designated objective. Makes missions less predictable.

[MBot]

Trivia: A Soviet rifle division, occupying between 5-25 km of frontline, was featuring about 120 Iglas. A interesting bonus to the troubles from 16 Shilkas, 16 SA-9 and 20 SA-8 :)

[LordWolf]

Trivia: A Soviet rifle division, occupying between 5-25 km of frontline, was featuring about 120 Iglas. A interesting bonus to the troubles from 16 Shilkas, 16 SA-9 and 20 SA-8 :)

Yeah, but i presume people dont use CAS in those circumstances...

They just carpet the crap around...

[Heli Shed]

He is. :)

 

But yeah, my spontaneous reaction here was: "why are you getting within 1.5 miles of a hot zone"? That should be restricted to desperation-moves, and then you should assume missiles are headed for you and spam pre-emptively. Remember: it is always better to deny the shot than to evade it.

 

The threat from MANPAD to fixed wing does not neccessarily come from just being in a 'hot zone'. The very nature of the MANPAD means that it SHOULD be employed 'in' either ingress direction or egress, but not actually in the killing zone itself. Difficult to locate, easy to employ, ideal to camouflage and quick to lock. Any MANPAD variant is pure 'gold' to an insurgency or any form of Counter COIN activity.

 

So....rhetoric would pose the following: 'what organisation (Insurgency or otherwise) would be stupid enough to place them where they know an enemy will look for them?' - ie a Hot Zone or killing area

 

Just my tuppence worth.

Edited December 3, 2010 by Tyger

[MBot]

Good point. This can also be found in US Army field manuals about the employment of Stingers. They are to be set up at likely avenues of approach to the objective they are to defend.

 

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/44-18/Ch5.htm

Edited December 3, 2010 by MBot
link added

[EtherealN]

Well, yes, but my point is that this goes for the vertical too. You can be above the target or launcher without being at risk from MANPAD.

 

Obviously though, this is a truth with modification - the battlefield scenario may prohibit this, but that's the case where denial-of-shot comes into play.

[Boberro]

He is. :)

 

But yeah, my spontaneous reaction here was: "why are you getting within 1.5 miles of a hot zone"? That should be restricted to desperation-moves, and then you should assume missiles are headed for you and spam pre-emptively. Remember: it is always better to deny the shot than to evade it.

 

Yeah problem is strikers have low amount of flares... general rule is to drop flares from time to time all all time over battlefield. 1 pair of flare (2 single flares in LO) aren't too useful so you must spread them more - at least 3 pairs. Then drop them from time to time, hmm let's say 3 seconds. In one minute you will drop 120 flares..... so your flares are almost out.

 

What would you do in LO world :D

[159th_Viper]

I would have thought that you'd be pretty daft to want to ingress/egress to target at less than 3500m AGL in any COIN Ops........Just waiting to take a MANPAD in the teeth.

 

Me - I'd have my MANPAD's on the boundary of the KZ, waiting to hammer the Airframes in their attack runs if folly dictates venturing below the 3500m mark. Absolutely no way you're spotting them from the air in any event, not until it's too late that is.

 

.....What would you do in LO world :D

 

 

Rely on your Wingman as over-watch and pray that he get's the call right.........

 

SAM 9 'o clock low......Oh fawk 3 'o clock.......WTF damned digital watch......BOOM!!....ooops :P

[Divinity10]

Well, yes, but my point is that this goes for the vertical too. You can be above the target or launcher without being at risk from MANPAD.

 

Obviously though, this is a truth with modification - the battlefield scenario may prohibit this, but that's the case where denial-of-shot comes into play.

 

Yes you can go above the target, that's common sense. The point is, sometimes you might not know they're even there and can catch you unaware in a multitude of situations. It's hard to believe you don't drop below 11500feet in any situation other than landing or taking off.

 

Yes denial of shot is nice...if you know where the IGLA will be. If you don't know there's one there and flare the entire journey, you're going to need more than 260 flares (that's if we sacrifice all our chaff).

 

I would have thought that you'd be pretty daft to want to ingress/egress to target at less than 3500m AGL in any COIN Ops........Just waiting to take a MANPAD in the teeth.

 

When dropping JDAMS or firing Mavs etc yes, it's good to stay about 12k ft+ but that's closing off any other scenario.

Just visuallising it my head now, but 12000 feet...during an gun run (for instance)...it's going to be difficult to see what you're doing, let alone if you're even aiming at the right target.

And that's a damn steep attack angle. I'd say by the time you've dived...spotted the target, aimed and fired off a decent burst, you're going to be way below the 3500m mark.

Haven't actually tested yet, but I can imagine almost any target you attack with the cannon is going to put you in the killzone of an IGLA. Even if it looks like nothing more than a couple of trucks an infantry, there still could be an IGLA hiding within a mile or so of that.

Edited December 3, 2010 by Divinity10

[Wags]

One of the CMS programs releases a single flare every second for around 10 seconds. I generally run this when rolling in on a target with a suspected IR AD threat.

[robmlufc]

Restrepo has some footage of Apaches and Hogs doing gun runs, they both are popping flares quite rapidly anywhere near the 'hot' zone. I think anytime your flying low over a potentially hot area it would be a good idea to pop some flares

[LordWolf]

Restrepo has some footage of Apaches and Hogs doing gun runs, they both are popping flares quite rapidly anywhere near the 'hot' zone. I think anytime your flying low over a potentially hot area it would be a good idea to pop some flares

better safe than dead!

[GGTharos]

Yes you can go above the target, that's common sense. The point is, sometimes you might not know they're even there and can catch you unaware in a multitude of situations. It's hard to believe you don't drop below 11500feet in any situation other than landing or taking off.

 

Yes denial of shot is nice...if you know where the IGLA will be. If you don't know there's one there and flare the entire journey, you're going to need more than 260 flares (that's if we sacrifice all our chaff).

 

Of course you know it's there. You are:

 

Approaching the target - check

Probably from an expected avenue of attack - check

 

 

You find yourself in need to dive low for whatever reason. Could be gun run, iron bomb run, engine problem, medium altitude SAM.

 

Your CMS is not in AUTO at this point because ... what?

[Divinity10]

Of course you know it's there.

 

Why of course? IGLA's are almost invisble from the sky and could be anywhere. Just because I approach a target..for instance...a truck...doesn't automatically tell me an IGLA is there :/.

 

 

Approaching the target - check

Probably from an expected avenue of attack - check

 

 

What have either of these got to do with knowing an IGLA is there? If I download a custom mission for instance or make my own mission and get a friend to place IGLA's...how would you just "know". Unless you play with labels and don't have hidden IGLA's on the mission planner, then it's pretty difficult to know. I don't understand your logic there at all.

 

When I create missions I don't place all my targets in one big convenient lump. I'd be impressed if you could spot an IGLA and a couple of AK infantry in a forest from the cockpit.

 

 

You find yourself in need to dive low for whatever reason. Could be gun run, iron bomb run, engine problem, medium altitude SAM.

 

Uhm...I agree. It was someone else saying "fly high" and equally simple answers who I was refuting. It's not always that simple.

 

Your CMS is not in AUTO at this point because ... what?

 

Another assumption. Auto or not, if the IGLA fires from your 12oclock, those flares are rendered almost useless. Yes, I would evade as quickly as possible, but as I said, there's about 3 seconds to do all this in. When you're not expecting it, most of that time is taken up by realizing what's happening, figuring the launch direction and then turning to evade.

Edited December 4, 2010 by Divinity10