Dynamic Campaign Discussion Thread

[Charlie_01]

Well you're quite right.

Using triggers it's possible to make something like dynamic group and maybe something more, too. But I believe, as you agree, it's not very easy to do, expecially when you build a big mission.

Maybe I'm not very familiar with mission editing, but in every SP mission I've played until now on A-10C, I haven't seen many differences even playing them more times. Maybe I can find a unit one time not the next, but when I find it is everytime in the same place and have the same composition.

Dynamic group system could also manage either the different places where you can find units everytime you play the same mission and in addiction their composition. And all this is done in an easy way.

So I only think adding a mechanics like dynamic group system could really improve the realism in mission building for the next DCS sim module. And make all it more easy to manage.

[Irregular programming]

The flight was already there since jane s F15...

 

The combat was there too.

 

What wasn t is the level of "realism"

 

It s just that DCS does better.

 

I think what people are missing is the story.... You can t see the flot evolve on the go.

Sometimes in DID EF2k i just pressed the forward button to see what would happen withput me dipping in.

Sometime it was interesting to fly a mission a see the flot changed when back.

Doing a misison diferently than what was throwed at me, repriorizing targets...

I know real pilot don t do this, but i don t care much, i m not a pilot.

 

No matter what, DCS system still feels like disconected canned sequence.

 

It would be nice to have a DC...i guess i ll havo to wait until DCS does it, or someone else.

 

This right here is why I want a DC.

 

In falcon I knew the world was alive, the airplanes starting and landing were all on their way to their respective missions just like I was (it doesn't matter that they turned into chips on a playing board when they weren't in my bubble they were still actively in the game), I don't care how much or how little impact I had on the over all war. Nor does randomly place units in anyway get close to "fix" this in DCS.

 

I know the planes landing are just some props put there by the mission maker so that I can't make it to the mission too fast and break his scripts.

 

A DC is a have to have in any combat simulator and a scripted mission editor hardly even belongs. At most it's usability stretches as far as to play around in and maybe do some tutorial mission in.

 

I am sad to say that the DCS games get kinda uninteresting after you have learned the aircraft and all that is left are flying the single missions without much of a goal other than to get "points" for whichever arbitrary task the mission maker decided was needed to win just this one.

Edited September 19, 2011 by Irregular programming

[GGTharos]

Nor does randomly place units in anyway get close to "fix" this in DCS.

 

That right there is merely in your head.

 

I know the planes landing are just some props put there by the mission maker so that I can't make it to the mission too fast and break his scripts.

 

And once more you'd be wrong; such treatment is not required.

 

A DC is a have to have in any combat simulator and a scripted mission editor hardly even belongs. At most it's usability stretches as far as to play around in and maybe do some tutorial mission in.

 

And more wrong. Simulation requires scenarios - but I understand that someone who's more into gaming than simming would think otherwise.

 

I am sad to say that the DCS games get kinda uninteresting after you have learned the aircraft and all that is left are flying the single missions without much of a goal other than to get "points" for whichever arbitrary task the mission maker decided was needed to win just this one.

 

You think that a DC can't be/isn't arbitrary in that respect? Do you think that's air you're breathing now? Hm. ;)

[John1606687966]

After playing BMS now i can't go back do DCS's "campaign" :-/ it's so dull and lifeless.. I've moved over fulltime to BMS now..

 

careface.jpg i guess :P

[Charlie_01]

Sorry but... what is BMS???!!

[Grimes]

Falcon 4 has a dynamic campaign? I've never heard that point argued here before. This changes everything.

[Snoopy]

After playing BMS now i can't go back do DCS's "campaign" :-/ it's so dull and lifeless.. I've moved over fulltime to BMS now..

 

careface.jpg i guess :P

 

Thanks for stopping by...

[HerrKaputt]

Sorry but... what is BMS???!!

 

+1

[EtherealN]

After playing BMS now i can't go back do DCS's "campaign" :-/ it's so dull and lifeless.. I've moved over fulltime to BMS now..

 

careface.jpg i guess :P

 

Two words: negative alpha. :D

 

To each their own. :)

[jp203000]

What bms brought me is nothing compared with what dcs did. I have to admite bms to be a good game , but I love dcs more than i do bms, as long as a it's a fighter , so those ED developers ,please don't let us down in the end!

[sobek]

Two words: negative alpha. :D

 

What is the big deal with that? The jet shouldn't be able to withstand it, but apart from that?

[GGTharos]

It's just a part of the FM that they have to fix, that's all ... though I'm surprised it's broken at all.

[sobek]

It's just a part of the FM that they have to fix, that's all ... though I'm surprised it's broken at all.

 

Why? You can't do it as long as you don't press the override, and when you do you are supposed to be able to do it. The thing that's missing is the pilot having a brain haemorrhage and the plane falling apart.

[EtherealN]

Speaking personally, my issue with it is that it speaks to the whole FM; it reveals that a hardcoded override is required to make the FM not give results like that, and it decreases my faith in the simulator.

 

EDIT

Think of it like this: it's about the same reason why I like DCS:Whatever better than FC.

 

EDIT2

I fly planes IRL, and the big thing with flying sims is to "fly" planes I can't fly IRL. If the flight model is suspect, it removes the whole point of me playing the sim in the first place.

Edited September 21, 2011 by EtherealN

[EagleEye]

Wherever this discussion goes I will nail you on this:D:

We've stated several times the following basic facts, in this thread:

1) ED knows people want a DC.

2) ED wants a DC.

3) ED wants the DC to be good.

4) ED therefore works incrementally, just as with all aspects of the product. This ensures that nothing breaks the bank and quality is maintained.

[EtherealN]

Just remember point number 3. ;)

[Speed]

A DC is a have to have in any combat simulator and a scripted mission editor hardly even belongs. At most it's usability stretches as far as to play around in and maybe do some tutorial mission in.

 

Well, as a long-time Falcon 4 flyer, I completely disagree. The ability to make a heavily scripted mission allows you to make missions up and beyond what a dynamic campaign can ever do. Now, granted, the replayability sucks, but you can create some really interesting scenarios. This is especially useful for multiplayer squadron scheduled flights. I can't count the number of times that I would have KILLED for a mission editor in Falcon 4 like what we have in DCS. I had to do some really whacky things in Falcon 4 to get my missions working correctly.

 

Now don't get me wrong, a dynamic campaign still trumps all due to the replayability and the feeling that you are working, over consecutive missions, towards some goal. But a good mission editor is still very important and relevant for setting up specially-crafted, balanced, and perhaps more realistic scenarios. In the Falcon 4 squad I flew in, we ended up doing about 80% dynamic campaign, and 20% scripted missions. I'm positive that the total number of scripted missions flown would have been much higher had the Falcon 4 mission editor not sucked donkey balls. Even so, we did some pretty sweet scenarios:

 

Desert Storm SCUD hunt (yes, actual, single SCUD launchers scattered around the desert)

Operation Opera (1981 Israeli airstrike on Iraqi reactor)

Kill Milosevic mission

13 F-16 package, 1991-era strike on Yugoslavia (lots of fun dogfighting since there were no AMRAAMs)

Escort Navy SEALs truck to airbase where it gets picked up mission...

Nuke North Korea mission

and more...

 

Can you do those in a dynamic campaign? Of course not. The dynamic campaign offers replayability; a major thing that a good mission editor provides is variety.

Edited September 21, 2011 by Speed

[sobek]

Speaking personally, my issue with it is that it speaks to the whole FM; it reveals that a hardcoded override is required to make the FM not give results like that, and it decreases my faith in the simulator.

 

Look at the charts of the viper. The bird is clearly able to have negative alpha departures in some areas of its flight envelope if the FLCS is overridden. This is true to the real bird. Have you tried it out? My experience is quite contrary to what you propose, i think the flight model is actually quite good.

 

Edit: I have a feeling that this starts drifting off into the jurisdiction of the BMS thread, what do you say? :)

Edited September 21, 2011 by sobek

[EtherealN]

Edit: I have a feeling that this starts drifting off into the jurisdiction of the BMS thread, what do you say? :)

 

Indeed. :)

 

And no, I haven't tried it myself yet. I can't find my Falcon box and as a point of principle I won't pirate. Will try it if I manage to find that box, or a cheap replacement somewhere, but I'm not hopeful.

 

(My issue though is that it's not actually a departure we're looking at there.)

 

Would be nice to revisit the DC again, but a DC in itself is not enough to keep me interested. I want AFM first, then systems detail, then realistic mission scripting capabilities, and then perhaps DC. Other people rate DC's higher than I personally do (that's why we have this huge thread after all :D ) and that changes things, but that's my perspective. :)

[sylkhan]

After playing BMS now i can't go back do DCS's "campaign" :-/ it's so dull and lifeless.. I've moved over fulltime to BMS now..

 

+1

[HerrKaputt]

Guys, you STILL haven't explained what BMS is! Those among us who are ignorant (like myself) would appreciate it :)

[159th_Viper]

Guys, you STILL haven't explained what BMS is! Those among us who are ignorant (like myself) would appreciate it :)

 

Falcon 4 'Mod'.

 

http://www.benchmarksims.org/forum/content.php

[sobek]

(My issue though is that it's not actually a departure we're looking at there.)

 

Just to be on the same page, what are we looking at?

[EtherealN]

The fact that you can conduct controlled flight at negative 60+ alpha. (Think long-duration inverse cobra.) Granted though, right now I only have videos and descriptions to go by so I may be wrong.

[NoJoe]

The fact that you can conduct controlled flight at negative 60+ alpha. (Think long-duration inverse cobra.) Granted though, right now I only have videos and descriptions to go by so I may be wrong.

 

At a guess, I think one of the videos at least is demonstrating what's possible when the override switch is thrown.

 

In normal conditions all I can get the BMS Viper to do is a small amount of negative alpha leading to a painful-looking red out. ;) Seems believable to me, at least.

 

--NoJoe

 

[EDIT] Gah, sorry, I just realized we're still in the DCS Dynamic Campaign discussion thread. Sorry for the OT! On topic: I do agree with some of the posters here that a dynamic campaign like Falcon's would be really amazing to have with the fidelity of the DCS sim. I also get the same impression that the campaign with A-10C feels not-real. I know DCS's scripting tools are awesome for creating specific scenarios, especially for training, but I lose my suspension of disbelief in the campaign.

 

I hate to keep comparing things to Falcon, but I want to point out the aspect I really like in Falcon (and the aspect I would love to see in DCS sims) which is: When flying along in the campaign in Falcon, there is a "big picture". The mission is fought in the context of the larger war, which can be seen in the map (other flights flying around, subsequent missions already scheduled, etc.), and while flying the mission itself (the player may pass other flights on their way to their objective). The player is able to participate in larger events. Right now in the DCS sims, all the player gets to see is their one single mission at a time. It makes it feel "smaller".

 

--NoJoe

Edited September 24, 2011 by NoJoe