Comments on the AI?

[BAWZ]

Is anybody testing the final AI?

 

I'm interested in the game but since I ONLY play offline you can imagine how sad my life has been as of today.

 

I read many good things regarding the beta, and someone mentioned that now it's even better. But I'd like something more in depth. So any detailed comments would be much appreciated.

 

Things of interest could be: enemy/allied engaging and evasion tactics, initiative, wingmen responsiveness and accuracy, how much of it is automated and how much is scripted/triggered... JTAC... Are there cheap tactics? And so on... If you know something I didn't mention (conisder that I have no experience with the DCS series) please tell me... The more the merrier.

 

This sim is making me salivate like a hungry saliva-monster, but I do not want to be seduced and abandoned again.

[EtherealN]

I know this is slightly OT (and I might be a bit partial in responding to your questions anyhow): but any specific reason why you only play offline? I used to be in that camp as well but got seduced into the online world with FC2, and it really is a whole new world. But if there are connection issues and such things I can understand it.

[winz]

I'm a single player aswell, so things that I found most beneficient are

a)Much, much more control over wingman. You can use your sensors to give him exact target he should attack. You can order him what weapons to use in attack and which direction to use. You can order him to anchor at a specific point.

 

b)Radio coms - you are now able to hear other flights on radio, this reports also include waypoint passes. This increases immersion a lot.

 

c)Inreased interaction with other flights - Mission designers can now use condition on waypoints, prohibiting an AI flight to move another waypoint until certain conditions are met - this include radio orders (similar to the way its done in OFP/Arma/Arma2)

 

d)JTAC - jtac in one word - superb.

 

e)Much more control for mission designer over the AI. Only had a glance on the new AI tasking system, but it looks pretty sweat.

 

f)Ground units are more intelligent - convoys disperse when attacked.

 

But, there are still bugs, AI fail to move to another waypoint after takeoff, they sometimes get jammed on taxiway traffic, the target call is still the simple 'Armor, 11 o'clock'...

 

But overall, there huge improvemetns and the world feels much more allive.

 

edit: sry, for grammar errors, was writing this in a hurry while EGI allignes :P

Edited February 22, 2011 by winz

[Sinky]

 

You can use your sensors to give him exact target he should attack.

 

Have they edited this in for the final release? It's one of the few things I've left to test on the final, on the beta you could only give him an area around your SPI and a target type, couldn't point him onto a single target.

[Succellus]

Great news the world feel much more alive.!!!!!!!! Even if its nots much military like.

[winz]

Have they edited this in for the final release? It's one of the few things I've left to test on the final, on the beta you could only give him an area around your SPI and a target type, couldn't point him onto a single target.

Hmm...For me, he allways attacked the target that was closest to the SPI, maybe just coincidence, and I will soon notice it's not working the way I think it is :)

[Sinky]

Hmm...For me, he allways attacked the target that was closest to the SPI, maybe just coincidence, and I will soon notice it's not working the way I think it is :)

 

I remember that now from the weapons training mission, he attacked my SPI first with a mav, told him to rejoin but the bugger still rippled off another three mav's before he rejoined. I will give it a test tomorrow anyway.

[BAWZ]

any specific reason why you only play offline?

 

I tend to do things alone, well, MOSTLY. :D

I prefer learning (and playing) at my own pace. I could say I'm more of a book reader but I think I have ADHD so no flashy explosions=no fun.

Being in a squadron is too much of a commitment to me. Don't want to be burdened/be a burden to/by others. If a game is scheduled on a certain date and that day I change my mind and want to go out, watch a movie, etc. I don't want any responsibility.

Plus, I hate faulty software. If the AI doesn't work properly, why include it?

 

Thanks for the comments. I take it that DCS outshines past sims in this field. Are the bugs frequent (e.g., does EVERY flight not follow their waypoints after takeoff) and/or game breaking? Do they damage immersion? Are there scripting workarounds? From your comments it doesn't seem so, but as I said, the more the merrier.

 

Another thing, I remember dogfighting guns only on Falcon: AF was a joke. With almost no experience and everything cranked up I managed to shoot down MiGs consistently. I don't think dogfighting in an A-10 is preferrable, but are there limitations like this one I mentioned? I mean, something that should be hard but is not because of bad AI.

 

And yet another one: is the AI moddable? Are there parameters accessible in some way that can be modified to adjust its behaviour? Like... Spotting ranges, accuracy, stuff like that...

 

Sorry if I'm so inquisitive, but it's something I just can't do without.

 

And thank you all again!

Edited February 22, 2011 by BAWZ
sh***y grammar

[Lonecrow66]

I tend to do things alone, well, MOSTLY. :D

I prefer learning (and playing) at my own pace. I could say I'm more of a book reader but I think I have ADHD so no flashy explosions=no fun.

Being in a squadron is too much of a commitment to me. Don't want to be burdened/be a burden to/by others. If a game is scheduled on a certain date and that day I change my mind and want to go out, watch a movie, etc. I don't want any responsibility.

Plus, I hate faulty software. If the AI doesn't work properly, why include it?

 

Thanks for the comments. I take it that DCS outshines past sims in this field. Are the bugs frequent (e.g., does EVERY flight not follow their waypoints after takeoff) and/or game breaking? Do they damage immersion? Are there scripting workarounds? From your comments it doesn't seem so, but as I said, the more the merrier.

 

Another thing, I remember dogfighting guns only on Falcon: AF was a joke. With almost no experience and everything cranked up I managed to shoot down MiGs consistently. I don't think dogfighting in an A-10 is preferrable, but are there limitations like this one I mentioned? I mean, something that should be hard but is not because of bad AI.

 

And yet another one: is the AI moddable? Are there parameters accessible in some way that can be modified to adjust its behaviour? Like... Spotting ranges, accuracy, stuff like that...

 

Sorry if I'm so inquisitive, but it's something I just can't do without.

 

And thank you all again!

 

 

I agree.. I'm not looking for some of these hard core squads. I'm in it for the fun.

 

Then you have to ask yourself why not start up your own squad of just like minded people? I used to run a squad called the 1212th Lawndart Squad for a little while just for fun. Was great to meet some casual players and meet online to have some fun.

 

I want to run a server myself actually because I have the ability to put it on some fiber with a lot of upload. Wish there was a dedicated server option somehow..

 

I want to find some good online type sandbox missions where people can do what they want. An online shooting range maybe. Then run missions where you can have your own AI wingment so you are not restricted.

 

Once you are comfortable we can try formation flying and other challenges like refueling etc.

[Rusty_M]

I wouldn't mind being part of a basic squad, but I'd have a lot to learn first. I certainly wouldn't want to be taking things seriously, though, as I switch what I play, and might sometimes not play this sim for a long time, then switch to playing it all the time for a few weeks/months.

[winz]

Are the bugs frequent (e.g., does EVERY flight not follow their waypoints after takeoff) and/or game breaking?

Haven't played enough of final to be able to comment on that.

Are there scripting workarounds?

Yes, most of the problems are associated with AI ground operations on airport, so the quickest workaround is to open the mission in ME and change first wp from "start at ramp" to "start at runway"

 

. I don't think dogfighting in an A-10 is preferrable, but are there limitations like this one I mentioned?

Your worst 'enemy' would be the flight model detail. You can really feel the drag and weight of a loaded A10. And the AI has suberb situational awarness and precisions (sometime to the point it's ridicolous :) )

So dogfighting in A10, with i.e. SU 25 shouldn't a walk in the park.

 

is the AI moddable? Are there parameters accessible in some way that can be modified to adjust its behaviour? Like... Spotting ranges, accuracy, stuff like that...

Don't know abbout spotting ranges, or accuracy. But most of the configs are lua scripts. Both FC2 and DCS:BS are very mod friendly and you can find tons of mods for them...mostly graphical and sound upgrades.

You can check the amount off mods present for the former onces at http://www.lockonfiles.com/

[Lonecrow66]

I wouldn't mind being part of a basic squad, but I'd have a lot to learn first. I certainly wouldn't want to be taking things seriously, though, as I switch what I play, and might sometimes not play this sim for a long time, then switch to playing it all the time for a few weeks/months.

 

Thats why a sandbox is the best thing.. just let people log in and fly around and voice chat. No pressure..

 

I'm going to look into a second license so I can run my own server if I can get the hardware going.

[Grimes]

 

And yet another one: is the AI moddable? Are there parameters accessible in some way that can be modified to adjust its behaviour? Like... Spotting ranges, accuracy, stuff like that...

 

They have different skill levels which adjust various settings like spotting range, accuracy, reaction time, reload time, and other variables. There are 4 skill sets and if I remember the values from the lua files correctly its basically easy, medium, hard, and expert.

 

 

 

As a whole I find that the AI in WH is much improved over what we had in BS and FC2. As with all games with AI they have their quirks and tendencies. The devs have added alot of extra control over AI actions, for instance you can force them to use a specific weapon type in a specific quantity. Alot of the fun creative stuff you can do is more or less limited to aircraft. Don't get me wrong, the ground AI was improved, it just wasn't improved as much as AI aircraft were. For the purposes within a mission the ground AI work perfectly well.

 

I'm sure the mission generator works quite well at creating a fresh experience quickly. However I wouldn't know as I've only looked at generated missions in the editor and not actually flown one yet. My reason being I'd rather spend a few weeks building a mission from scratch and play it online than to spend the same time playing the game by myself.

[Weta43]

They have different skill levels which adjust various settings like spotting range, accuracy, reaction time, reload time,

 

For those that haven't seen the BETA, in the advanced section of the waypoint editor it is also possible to set options such as sensor use, reaction to threat, aggressiveness, countermeasure use, what weapon to use for attacks, etc...

 

(+ set conditions to change waypoints, assign tasks, end tasks etc ...)

 

(Just read the previous post & realised I've covered the same ground :-)

Edited February 23, 2011 by Weta43

[BAWZ]

For the purposes within a mission the ground AI work perfectly well.

 

This is what I like to hear.

 

So, the ground AI keeps your target from being easy to destroy by making them scatter and react fast. By saying react I mean they can find you and fire at appropriate ranges. Are there any particular exploits? Like flying too low/high, etc...

 

About aircraft AI... I remember reading something like "fishing" your enemy into your SAM batteries firing range back in Black Shark, but they were aggressive and reacted to your attacks with chaff/flares and maneuvering (though helicopters didn't search for cover). While A10 was still in beta I think I found positive comments about wingmen correctly responding to orders and effectively engaging ground targets, and there's some mention of it in this thread, too. Anything to add?

 

Main gripes with old sims were unresponsive wingmen, messed attack and evasion procedures and a bunch of dubious exploits BUT it seems it's becoming a thing of the past, mostly.

 

I'm almost ready to break off the siege but I'd like to hear some more. If the worst stuff is not deeply game/immersion breaking...

 

Also, I too am more inclined to play "casually" (just for the fun) online, but there's much stuff to learn and maybe some team training is required to play effectively, so I don't know about this particular game. Plus, good AI is still needed at least for the ground units, so the point I make still stands.

 

Again, thank you all guys for your help and patience.

[winz]

Are there any particular exploits? Like flying too low/high, etc...

No exploits really, other then the limitations present also irl (i.e radars not able to see through ridges).

The AI is pretty persistent in using everything they can to shoot you down, even ground foot troops will fire at you with theri aks if you fly too low. Fly low, predictable in a straight line and a few well placed rounds from shilka will end your sortie fast. Not to mention iglas and other manpads, they will bite you.

 

Up high - med/long range sams are really a show stoppers for you, and you have to rely on SEAD aircrafts to take them out.

 

One problem in previous sims was that the trees were non-collidable object, so AI could see and shoot through them. Haven't tested if that is changed, but my wild guess would be no. It's was not that much of a deal, just something to be aware of.

 

Something I still miss is that AA still reacts as individual units, and not as organized defense, like they did in i.e Falcon 4.

 

Main gripes with old sims were unresponsive wingmen, messed attack and evasion procedures and a bunch of dubious exploits BUT it seems it's becoming a thing of the past, mostly.

Wingmen is still able to pull some retarded 'tactics' when attacking target, but you have means to avoid them, thanks to the greater control over him.

Edited February 23, 2011 by winz

[lubey]

About the casual online play, I am also inclined this way but Ill tell you black shark multiplayer ranked as was one of the funnest online experiences ever for me (I say "was" because it wasn't as good after the FC2 compatibility patch). This is because each shark could operate relatively autonomously so even if the sever only had a couple people the mission still worked and it your skill level didn't matter so much. Also, just the difficulty of flying that thing weeded out a lot of annoying sorts. You know, the ones that *always* fly the spitfire/etc. Hopefully a-10 will be similar.

[Speed]

Was flying one of the new multiplayer missions, the one where you got to attack stuff near the Roki tunnel (Serpent's Tail I think). Well, we got shot the crap out of by the SA-15 even though we were just following the pre-briefed flight plan and times. The SA-15 was supposed to be attacked and destroyed by a SEAD flight. Looking through the F2 external views, I think I found the SEAD flight- stuck on the tarmac, doing nothing, becuase their AI got confused about how to taxi to the runway. Same kind of AI aircraft taxi problems that were in the beta :(

[Святой]

- There are nothing new in aircraft AI behavior. AI-controlled aircrafts in DCS:A-10C are not smarter and not more capable than in FC 2.0.

- In DCS:A-10C mission designers have a very powerful and flexible instrument for control over AI-controlled aircrafts behavior during the mission - new AI tasking system: tasks, commands and behavior options those can be assigned to flights with conditions or with no conditions.

- There are new radio command for wingmens those give to player more control over his flight behavior.

 

- JTAC is an AI-controlled unit. JTAC can interact with player only. JTAC able to make tactical situation analysis and assign you to attack most dangerous ground targets first (to support friendly ground units). In mission editor you can also force JTAC to select targets you want to get from JTAC during the mission.

[StrongHarm]

Thank you for your reply Святой! I noticed a difference between beta4 and release where before, in a mission I created the red/blue AI took up to 60 seconds to acquire and engage one another. Now in release, they acquire and engage almost immediately. It surprises me to hear that this AI engine isn't better than FC2's.

[Sticky]

....Things of interest could be: enemy/allied engaging and evasion tactics, initiative, wingmen responsiveness and accuracy...

 

I told my wingman to engage targets, just to see if he would do that without getting himself shot down, nope, a couple of minutes later he was shot down. Perhaps you can get better results if you use the broadcast SPI function but I havent tried that yet.

[egorter]

I tried the quick mission spring and the wingman did everything I asked without getting shot down. I on the other hand got shot down by my own bomb....

[BAWZ]

I told my wingman to engage targets, just to see if he would do that without getting himself shot down, nope, a couple of minutes later he was shot down. Perhaps you can get better results if you use the broadcast SPI function but I havent tried that yet.

 

I tried the quick mission spring and the wingman did everything I asked without getting shot down. I on the other hand got shot down by my own bomb....

 

Woah, what should I say? LOL! :D

 

It does seem that wingman response is strongly affected by user input and situational awareness. Not a bad sign, in my book, but... Is the "AI commanding conduct" documented somewhere?

 

Also, thanks Святой for answering. As he said, there are no improvements and new routines for the "new" AI. What could be the reason for all these improved performance then? The stronger scripts available in the editor, or am I missing something?

 

I'm scanning the forum, and it seems one of the biggest problems is the one already mentioned, planes not taking off, which can be resolved right now with the editor. And ED should have that fixed in "no time".

 

I think my stubborness is starting to crumble.

[Geskes]

You need to manage the wingman a bit. Tell him what weapons to use and from what direction. If you dont he will go at it untill he has no weapons left and that is a problem because for his gun runs and bombs he will get too close.

 

Also for AI, and most importantly SEAD, it is good practice to set them with 0 gun ammo in the editor. If you dont then SEAD flights will start engaging AD threats with gun once they are out of missiles.. There was an aggressiveness setting earlier, dont know if that even worked, but it is gone now.

[Sticky]

Tried it again, this time with broadcast SPI on and using "engage with" instead of just "engage" and this time he did what he was told and stayed alive :)