Using Targeting Pod SPI for Mav Targeting- Bug?

[Dropbear]

Hi. I'll try and describe this as best as possible.. please be patient and forgive me if I get the terminology wrong.

 

 

I am trying to use the targeting pod to find and designate targets for my Mavericks. I go through the following process.

 

1. With the targeting pod as the SOI - I slew it over a target and press LCTRL_UP (short) to go to point mode, and then LCTRL-UP (long) to designate a SPI.

 

*first point - is there any indication anywhere that a SPI has been created? I didnt notice anything on the hud?

 

2. With the MAV as the SOI, I press and hold V (long) which slews the mav seeker head to the SPI. This works fine and I can tell that my mav seeker head is pointing directly at the target. I ensure that I am well within launch range and that the thing im locked on is glowing quite brightly.

 

From there, if I try and launch I get a NO TRACK LAUNCH INHBT message (exact wording may vary). It's not locked on I guess? If from the MAV SOI I manually slew the crosshair slightly off the target and then back on, it then locks and I can shoot successfully.

 

 

Is this the proper behaviour? Why doesn't slewing the mav seeker right onto the target lock it on? Why would moving it slightly off and on again firm up the target lock? It seems to make the whole designating targets with the targeting pod and setting SPI's a waste of time, as you still need to slew the mav seeker head around manually in order to get a lock on.

[Widowmaker013]

need to press TMS Forward/Up Short to get a lock, keep pressing like every 2 seconds till you get a lock then fire away, no slewing needed... I love the Mavs

[Dropbear]

so after you slew, press TMS Fwd Up/ Short?

 

Ok Will try that and report back

 

ok.. tested and can validate that it works..

 

 

some thoughts.. seems a very slow and error prone process to use the Targeting Pod to try and designate a second target - you need to switch MFD SOI back to targeting pod, go to point track, set a SPI, then go back to Mav MFD slew head, then lock.

 

Seems better to use the targeting pod to find the first target, and then slew the rest of the mavs from within the MAV MFD right?

Edited February 25, 2011 by Dropbear

[BiPod]

Seems better to use the targeting pod to find the first target, and then slew the rest of the mavs from within the MAV MFD right?

 

That is exactly right.

 

You do get an indication that you have set an SPI. A "wedding cake" symbol appears in the TAD (sort of a white podium shape). It's a bit subtle if you have yours eyes glued to the TGP MFCD though.

 

BiPod.

[WarriorX]

Hey Dropbear, let's try and get this cleared up for ya.

 

Regarding your first question:

"*first point - is there any indication anywhere that a SPI has been created? I didnt notice anything on the hud?"

 

You can verify SPI creation by looking at the Targeting Pod Diamond in the HUD and notice it changes from a simple diamond pre SPI designation, to a diamond with a straight line or "tail" coming off it, at an oblique angle. This is how you can verify whether or not your TGP target is the SPI.

 

Now regarding TGP/MAV interaction, you seem to have a good grip on it, but let's review.

 

For clarity's sake let's identify some terms.

 

TMS UP or TMS Forward are the same as they sometimes are used interchangeably in both the forums and the manual.

 

There are a few HOTAS buttons that have a dual function depending on whether you press them quickly, or hold them for > 1 sec. TMS UP Short is a quick press, TMS UP Long is a long press of the TMS UP button.

 

Ok, so you slew the TGP diamond on to a target. You need to have the target within a direct line of sight with the TGP. The plane itself can block the TGP and you will see a flashing or solid M indicating "Masking" this means the TGP can not lock a target or range it with the laser. But all is not lost the great thing is the TGP has an inertial memory and will keep track of your target for you, all you need to do is turn the A-10C around so that the TGP is facing the target.

 

Now with the target with direct line of sight with the TGP you hit the TMS UP Short to go from inertial tracking (INR) to Area Tracking (AREA). One more press of the TMS UP key will take you into TRACK mode. This is where you can set the TGP Track point as SPI, with a TMS UP LONG.

 

Confirm the "tail" on the diamond and then switch to your MAV page. Make the MAV page is your SOI, and then hit your CHINA HAT FWD LONG to automatically slew the MAV seeker on to your TGP's SPI.

 

Once the seeker is slewed on the SPI, you can zoom it's view in by hitting the CHINA HAT FWD short once to magnify your view. The rest of the Maverick engagement will proceed a tiny bit differently based on factors such as whether or not you target is in a highly cluttered environment or on a barren plane with nothing else around it.

 

Basically you will wait until you believe based on previous trial and error when you should proceed with your final button press before hitting the holy grail of button's..... the Weapons Release button.

 

Now here is where experience and trial and error come in to play and you will have to learn this part for yourself, but for a rule of thumb you can engage most targets with an AGM 65 D at around 7 nm. Some will be further, some closer.

 

When you feel the range is right, hit the TMS UP Short, and look for the Maverick crosshair symbology to change from non intersecting crosshairs to a tightly intersected crosshair that kind of flashes rapidly.

 

Once you have this symbology, hit the Weapon Release button and egress.

 

I hope this helps you out...and welcome to the Forums.

[WarriorX]

Well I see while I was typing it up, you got your answers...glad to hear it.

[nemises]

...as for multi target designation, you can consider "marking" from the TGP prior to your run in..ie to a few orbits from your IP and set up your targets as Marks (TMS-right-short?)

Switch to "Mark" display mode (right hand panel under the EGI), set Steerpoint-as-POI (TMS aft long?)..

 

Then, as you approach (and this is a bit fiddly):

- set TGP as SPI

- set HUD as SOI

- select the "mark" you want (TGP will slew to it automatically)

- slave MAV to TGP

- Shoot the mav when able

- select next "waypoint" mark

- repeat

 

oe some such..

 

but yeah, with mav's, it's easier / safer to to repeated runs if the targets are too far apart to slew directly from the MAV seeker IMHO

[Bahger]

You don't need to set your SPI more than once to target multiple, co-located objects using TGP and Maverick. Once you find a group of targets in the TGP, set one as your SPI to slave the Mav sensor to it. Cycle your MFD to Mavs as SOI, wait until you are in the range bracket, then slew the seeker head, which will "lock" onto a target when in range. Hit TMS UP/Short to confirm the lock. Fire Maverick. Remember there is a fairly weak FOV enhancement in the Mav screen but it helps. If you have other Mavs ready to fire, as soon as the first one is off the rail, do not go back into the TGP, just use China Hat Fwd/Long to re-slave the seeker to the SPI, if necessary, then slew the cursor to your next target. It helps not to run in faster than 250kts. This technique will easily take care of a 4-vehicle convoy, either stationary or moving (a "Point" SPI designation will track a moving object in both TGP and Mav screens) with a little practice.

[Speed]

*first point - is there any indication anywhere that a SPI has been created? I didnt notice anything on the hud?

 

 

If the TGP diamond is off the HUD, then the dashed square SPI-off-the-HUD symbol will have a TGP diamond in it if the TGP is SPI. I'm fairly sure about that. Should be there in the manual, look up sections on the TGP and it should mention that.

[Lonecrow66]

Hi. I'll try and describe this as best as possible.. please be patient and forgive me if I get the terminology wrong.

 

 

I am trying to use the targeting pod to find and designate targets for my Mavericks. I go through the following process.

 

1. With the targeting pod as the SOI - I slew it over a target and press LCTRL_UP (short) to go to point mode, and then LCTRL-UP (long) to designate a SPI.

 

*first point - is there any indication anywhere that a SPI has been created? I didnt notice anything on the hud?

 

2. With the MAV as the SOI, I press and hold V (long) which slews the mav seeker head to the SPI. This works fine and I can tell that my mav seeker head is pointing directly at the target. I ensure that I am well within launch range and that the thing im locked on is glowing quite brightly.

 

From there, if I try and launch I get a NO TRACK LAUNCH INHBT message (exact wording may vary). It's not locked on I guess? If from the MAV SOI I manually slew the crosshair slightly off the target and then back on, it then locks and I can shoot successfully.

 

 

Is this the proper behaviour? Why doesn't slewing the mav seeker right onto the target lock it on? Why would moving it slightly off and on again firm up the target lock? It seems to make the whole designating targets with the targeting pod and setting SPI's a waste of time, as you still need to slew the mav seeker head around manually in order to get a lock on.

 

Have similar problems.. I was playing with it last night with all sorts of problems. It seems to be only with the H model maverick though.

 

I have to have my nose pointed somewhat at the target to get the TGP to actually lock something with TMS UP SHORT... then I hold V, go to MAV usually still not locked up.. ahve to hold V again. Just doesnt want to work usually. I try TMS UP it won't lock.

 

Worked fine with the D model though. (and yes I'm setting up the MAV as SOI)

Edited February 25, 2011 by Lonecrow66

[159th_Viper]

Have similar problems.. I was playing with it last night with all sorts of problems. It seems to be only with the H model maverick though.

 

.......

 

Worked fine with the D model though.

 

Different seekers and accordingly different parameters where seeker-lock will be obtained. If you still have issues, post a track with steps to replicate.

[BTTW-DratsaB]

Related to Mav usage:

 

In the Beta I used to use the the TGP to assign a target (say the first tank in group of three) and when I switched to Mavs and slaved the Mav seeker to the TGP and fire, it would always hit the Tank I had designated with the TGP.

 

In the Release, in almost every Mav usage so far, the missile has hit a different target other than the one I had assigned with the TGP, in the group of targets.

 

My guess as to why this is happening is because when I Slave the Mav to the TGP and then press TMS up short to lock the target, it is jumping off the TGP target and locking an adjacent one. I have to have a proper look to make sure this is the case next time, but that is what seems like is happening . I find seeing targets with Mav Seeker very hard.

 

Why is this happening now in the Retail, is it more realistic?

 

Before I use to have the TGP and MAV on each MFCD and specify each individual target with the TGP then slave the mav to it and engage. I would then switch back to TGP and assign the next target in the group and engage...repeat. However, with the MAVs not hitting what I have assigned with the TGP, I may have to give up this practise.

Edited February 25, 2011 by BTTW-DratsaB

[S77th-konkussion]

"H" in general does not have the range that the "D" does..

[BiPod]

I have to have my nose pointed somewhat at the target to get the TGP to actually lock something with TMS UP SHORT

 

Yes, this is weird, but I assume it is a genuine feature. If the target is a long way away, it will not lock out of the "corner of the eye", even if the image is clearly visible. I used to turn the nose towards the target like you do, but have found that you can lock by just showing the target your belly.

 

ie. If the target is off your right wing and won't lock, bank hard left while flying straight and it should lock easily.

 

This is for the TGP only. The short range and slow seeker head of the Mavs makes this method unsuitable for them (maybe a better pilot could get it to work?).

 

Cheers,

BiPod.

[Bahger]

I have to have my nose pointed somewhat at the target to get the TGP to actually lock something with TMS UP SHORT...

Hmm, this sounds wrong to me. I am always amazed by the TGP's off-boresight capability. It can look directly down, or even behind you, for short periods of time. For example, having overflown a target you just hit with an LGB, the TGP's FOV will still give you about 6 seconds to lock up another target in the same location before it tumbles so that you can separate and run in again on an already selected and locked target. And the standard MO is always to approach targets with the TGP from 10 o-clock or 2 o-clock. I think you may be missing a keypress in your command sequence. It takes two TMS up presses (short/long) to ground-stabilise the TGP and then lock up the target, especially if you want a "Point" designation.

 

The Maverick seeker, on the other hand, has very limited off-boresight capability, which I why I think it's much better to refine all target selection and aiming in the Mav screen only after an initial ground-stabilisation and sensor slave in the TGP.

 

Just my 2c.

[BiPod]

If the target is a long way away, it will not lock out of the "corner of the eye", even if the image is clearly visible

 

Thanks for the input Bahger:), but I will stand by my statement. I agree, there is no problem at close range such as the overflight example you have given, but at 15-20 miles when you are first aquiring your target it is a different story. In the overflight example, the angles are usually fairly steep, and a lot of belly is being shown.

 

Enjoying the complexity and nuances of this sim,

BiPod.

[Lonecrow66]

Yes, this is weird, but I assume it is a genuine feature. If the target is a long way away, it will not lock out of the "corner of the eye", even if the image is clearly visible. I used to turn the nose towards the target like you do, but have found that you can lock by just showing the target your belly.

 

ie. If the target is off your right wing and won't lock, bank hard left while flying straight and it should lock easily.

 

This is for the TGP only. The short range and slow seeker head of the Mavs makes this method unsuitable for them (maybe a better pilot could get it to work?).

 

Cheers,

BiPod.

 

Ahh nice trick I'll try it out. I was able to get the H working. There is just some confusion to the SPI and inability to get things to slave to the SPI.

[nomdeplume]

*first point - is there any indication anywhere that a SPI has been created? I didnt notice anything on the hud?

 

The bottom left of the HUD indicates which sensor is currently providing the SPI. By default it'll say STPT, but can also say TDC (for the HUD target designation cursor), TGP for the targeting pod, TAD for the object hooked on the TAD, MAV for the Maverick seeker, and I think MARK for mark points.

 

If the target is a long way away, it will not lock out of the "corner of the eye", even if the image is clearly visible. I used to turn the nose towards the target like you do, but have found that you can lock by just showing the target your belly.

 

This just sounds like the TGP is (thinks it is) masked. Look for the "M" symbol at the bottom of the TGP screen, and it also appears in the center left of the HUD. The masking is, as I understand it, based on a pre-programmed configuration of what angles the TGP has a clear line-of-sight. It tends to be quite conservative and will mask even when there's nothing in the TGP's field of view.

 

Any time the M is absent, you should be able to lock your target, assuming you're in range. When masked, the TGP will switch back to INR mode. If it was tracking a moving target, it will follow its last course+speed and try to re-acquire it when it becomes unmasked.

[Lonecrow66]

Still having issues last night myself again. Was getting quite frustrating.

 

I have a wedding cake in the area set up from the JTAC coordinates. I slave all to that SPI. Then I switch to TGP (as SOI) slew and find a target. If I can't lock it I turn towards the target and lock it with TMS UP two times until I get a square.

 

I switch to maverick, make sure its SOI. I hit china hat forward long (V) and I will in most cases see its crosshairs on the target but NOT locked. Sometimes there are NO crosshairs. I hit TMS UP to try and force it to lock and it never works, even if the seekers head is in the field of view and I'm pointed right at it and in range.

 

It just seems to work sometimes and other times it doesnt. So I slew he mav off the area and back onto the target to get a lock and shoot.

 

That is the problem I'm having. Probably due to some misunderstanding of how this is supposed to work?

[159th_Viper]

 

That is the problem I'm having. Probably due to some misunderstanding of how this is supposed to work?

 

Track?

[Speed]

Still having issues last night myself again. Was getting quite frustrating.

 

I have a wedding cake in the area set up from the JTAC coordinates. I slave all to that SPI. Then I switch to TGP (as SOI) slew and find a target. If I can't lock it I turn towards the target and lock it with TMS UP two times until I get a square.

 

I switch to maverick, make sure its SOI. I hit china hat forward long (V) and I will in most cases see its crosshairs on the target but NOT locked. Sometimes there are NO crosshairs. I hit TMS UP to try and force it to lock and it never works, even if the seekers head is in the field of view and I'm pointed right at it and in range.

 

It just seems to work sometimes and other times it doesnt. So I slew he mav off the area and back onto the target to get a lock and shoot.

 

That is the problem I'm having. Probably due to some misunderstanding of how this is supposed to work?

 

The maverick is in a slave mode after you press china hat forward long, it never locks without additional input. You have to tell it to lock up with TMS forward short. If you've slaved it and the target is in the exact center of the maverick FOV, then keep hitting TMS forward short until you get a lock, which will be between 6.5 and 9 miles. Use the D and G mavs. They work at night as well as in day, and appear to have a longer lock range.

 

If you've slaved and the target is not in the exact center, it may never lock without you slewing the maverick slightly. So you might have to touch the slew in the direction of the target to get the maverick to lock in that case.

Edited February 26, 2011 by Speed

[StrongHarm]

"You must spread some reputation before giving it to WarriorX again."

Well said.

 

I would suggest the following:

*15k ft alt with a 10nm separation from target.. heading toward targets

*-8 pitch

*Throttles back, partial airbrake (I like 200kts)

*Autopilot on PATH

*Ctrl+kpd0, then kpd6 to view only right MFD (remember if you need to see your TAD for SitNess, just CoolieHat down short to switch left to right MFD)

 

By the time you get to an alt of 10k you should be about 7nm away. Take your time and make friends with your mavericks. Don't try to turn at 2miles and get a shot off. Using the above method I can pickle 6 mavs and turn away before I'm within 5miles.

 

Don't get me wrong.. there are days when it's good to do a mav popup on a single target.. like an SA.. and grin all the way home... but don't be in a hurry in your cockpit.

 

Situational Awareness.. target separation.. preparation... oneness with your Hawg.

[Lonecrow66]

Track?

 

I'll see. I just did a full mission and the track IR crashed on me at the end.

 

I had the same problems again..

 

I think this has something to do with the difference between the TMS up short and long..

 

I had steerpoint as SPI, slaved all to that area, picked a target with the TGP locked it.. then set it as the SPI. Switch to maverick, tried to slave all to SPI. The Maverick would in fact slew to the target but sometimes it puts the crosshairs on it sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it is a wide bracket with no crosshairs. I hit TMS up Short many times it just won't lock and it'll be under 8 miles within the range thing on the left side.

 

Sometimes I have to sit and wait for about a minute before it'll lock.. it'll do it all on its own. This seems to happen mainly in campaigns.

 

I'm going to run an instant action mission to see if I can reproduce in a short track.

[159th_Viper]

I'm going to run an instant action mission to see if I can reproduce in a short track.

 

Ta - appreciated :)

[Lonecrow66]

Was trying to make a mission but now my track IR is giving me headaches.. ugh.. so I can't even look down to the left I'll have to get that sorted first.