Alternate 6dof Head Tracking with FaceTrackNoIR

[Frostiken]

The problem would be that NP could seek that DCS no longer supports TIR.

 

I'm pretty sure Eagle Dynamics is in position to dictate what NP does, not the other way around, given that the DCS series probably makes up the second-largest bit of marketshare for them next to IL2.

[Wolf Rider]

With all due respect, that's not a very good analogy. What you seem to be forgetting is that NP would actually be the 'alternative helicopter sim developer' creating a mod for a game. Also with what you said, the gamer would already have purchased and installed BlackShark for it to share the memory with. I'm sure everybody would say "I paid for the game, I'll mod it how I like". Quite rightly so.

 

To use a better analogy:

 

Its more like Thrustmaster saying to DCS "We have a HOTAS modelled on the Warthog, loads of people have it or will want it. If you remove support for any other joystick from your game, you will be allowed to use ours. If you fail to comply however, we will not allow you to use our joystick. You will then lose customers and annoy your users." Why would they do that? To force users to spend £300 on a joystick rather than using what they already have or what they could build on a shoestring.

 

It's unfortunate that DCS have gone along with their request, and I'm sure they had their reasons but despite your negative comments, you must admit it is at best anti-competitive. If they did that over here in the UK, they would be under investigation by now.

 

I'm all for protecting your software, and that's fine, that is why they added encryption, good for them, NP users spent a lot of money for their setup so I expect them to enjoy a better piece of software than my free one. But to then stop a completely independent developer from producing a piece of software that in no way uses borrowed code from TIR then that's just plain wrong.

 

Again, I invite anyone from the ED team to post on this thread, I would like very much to see your comments.

 

 

That was a really nice try, but respectfully, NP doesn't make helicopter (or other) sims and there is a generic joystick interface available with DirectX :music_whistling: car analogy next?

 

 

 

 

 

I seem to notice a lot of going off track, as far as "legalities" go... MOA. copyright does apply - whether you agree or not/ like it or not.

from around around the traps it comes back as consistent that NP are only out to prevent the unauthorised use of their code, their bits and pieces...unfortunately some alternatives make use of those codes/ bit and pieces.

Until it goes to a court/s (should it go there) you'll only ever have one camp saying one thing and the other camp saying another thing and a whole lot of others throwing out misinformation and slur, all going 'round and 'round in circles not getting anywhere, with some players getting upset.

 

example....

 

But if I understand correctly, it is not about other software being compatible or not. It is about NP saying we will not allow you to use our software if you support any other software that offers similar functionality.

 

As for patents, afaik they haven't been granted any. And it's to no surprise. They haven't invented anything remotely new (look no further than your MiG or Su).

 

 

err, no... that should be "It is about NP saying we will not allow you to use our software if you support any other software that uses our code".

 

 

 

quite clear earlier in thread is the real reason

 

 

 

 

 

 

as mentioned earlier, the best solution is for a generic interface to be developed by and shipped with DirectX, the same as there is available already for joysticks/ input devices

Edited May 21, 2011 by Wolf Rider

[Moa]

@Wolf Rider. Copyright only applies if you make a copy. In this case you cannot make and use a copy of Natural Point's software unless you agree to their license terms (the license is an agreement by NP to suspend their copyright claim under certain conditions).

 

If you make software that is compatible with TrackIR hardware (permitted under 'reverse engineering for compatibility' provisions in law & case law) then you are not infringing on NP's copyright and their license does not apply. This has been used by several Open Source/Free Software projects to produce compatible implementations of software (Samba being an excellent example).

 

However, since the NP software now uses encryption it is protected in the USA by the Digital Milinieum Copyright Act (designed to keep businesses models from the millennium that ended on the year 2000 going, rather than update copyright for uses in the millennium that started on 2001). Implementations outside the US are not affected (although WIPO treaties are eroding these protections).

 

So, it would be a huge Pain In The A$$ for ED to move away from the NP software. However, NP does not give ED money (that we know of), its civilian customers (and military contracts) do. If there was enough demand (that is, sales) for it I'm sure ED would consider enabling webcam head-tracking as well as TrackIR tracking (just not using Natural Point's software). Natural Point is unlikely to have any legal basis to prevent this.

[Wolf Rider]

 

@Wolf Rider. Copyright only applies if you make a copy. In this case you cannot make and use a copy of Natural Point's software unless you agree to their license terms (the license is an agreement by NP to suspend their copyright claim under certain conditions).

 

 

World English Dictionary

copyright (ˈkɒpɪˌraɪt) — n 1. © the exclusive right to produce copies and to control an original literary, musical, or artistic work, granted by law for a specified number of years (in Britain, usually 70 years from the death of the author, composer, etc, or from the date of publication if later) — adj 2. (of a work, etc) subject to or controlled by copyright — vb 3. ( tr ) to take out a copyright on 'copyrightable — adj 'copyrighter — n

 

 

If you make software that is compatible with TrackIR hardware (permitted under 'reverse engineering for compatibility' provisions in law & case law) then you are not infringing on NP's copyright and their license does not apply. This has been used by several Open Source/Free Software projects to produce compatible implementations of software (Samba being an excellent example).

 

 

 

the problem isn't making conpatbility with TIR HARDWARE, the problem is making compatible with TIR SOFTWARE

 

 

 

However, since the NP software now uses encryption it is protected in the USA by the Digital Milinieum Copyright Act (designed to keep businesses models from the millennium that ended on the year 2000 going, rather than update copyright for uses in the millennium that started on 2001). Implementations outside the US are not affected (although WIPO treaties are eroding these protections).

 

 

 

check the Berne Convention

 

 

 

So, it would be a huge Pain In The A$$ for ED to move away from the NP software. However, NP does not give ED money (that we know of), its civilian customers (and military contracts) do. If there was enough demand (that is, sales) for it I'm sure ED would consider enabling webcam head-tracking as well as TrackIR tracking (just not using Natural Point's software).

 

 

well, a lot of us seem to be be on the same page there... I've said many times "develop the alternative whilst staying totally away from anything NP and there shouldn't be a problem."

[Nate--IRL--]

the problem isn't making conpatbility with TIR HARDWARE, the problem is making compatible with TIR SOFTWARE

"

 

Actually it is, the data to and from the TIR device is encrypted, you need to use NP software to decrypt it legally. If you reverse engineer it, you are breaking the law in many countries.

 

Nate

[Frostiken]

To be fair, if you use an image you found on the internet as your avatar, you're breaking copyright too, so let's not act like it's a bigger deal than it really is...

[Moa]

Actually it is, the data to and from the TIR device is encrypted, you need to use NP software to decrypt it legally. If you reverse engineer it, you are breaking the law in many countries.

 

Nate

 

> you need to use NP software to decrypt it legally

 

AFAIK, this is not correct. Outside of the US (due to DMCA) you can use any program you want, just not Natural Point's software (unless you want to be bound by their license).

 

> the problem isn't making conpatbility with TIR HARDWARE, the problem is making compatible with TIR SOFTWARE

 

Also not true. Reverse engineering is allowed. You can easily, and legally, insert interceptor methods that bypass the NP software and call your own - and this will appear to all programs as if the NP software had been called. Memory allocation debugging tools (and OpenGL debugging tools) do this kind of interception all the time.

[jireland607]

That was a really nice try, but respectfully, NP doesn't make helicopter (or other) sims and there is a generic joystick interface available with DirectX :music_whistling: car analogy next?

 

Again respectfully, it was you who started used the heli sim analogy:doh:, I was simply just putting it the correct way round.

 

from around around the traps it comes back as consistent that NP are only out to prevent the unauthorised use of their code, their bits and pieces...unfortunately some alternatives make use of those codes/ bit and pieces.

 

Take FaceTracknoir for example, it uses NONE of the code from ANY NP software AT ALL. It uses an API that is available on the FREE market to track a face from the webcam. The developer can then move that data input into the game in whatever way ED agree on. There has been NO reverse engineering or stealing of code so copyright does not apply.

 

This is not about NP protecting their code or software, plain and simple its about keeping their market share.

Edited May 21, 2011 by jireland607

[Wolf Rider]

Actually it is, the data to and from the TIR device is encrypted, you need to use NP software to decrypt it legally. If you reverse engineer it, you are breaking the law in many countries.

 

Nate

 

not the problem at hand... no-one is hassling to run thier own software on the TIR camera (hardware), they are hassling to run their modified (reverse engineered/ modified webcams - hardware) on NP software - my point, in relations to MOA's earlier incorrect statement

Edited May 21, 2011 by Wolf Rider

[Moa]

Good points jireland607. Although even if an Application Programming Interface (API) was *not* FREE it is still legal to either implement the interface or connect to the interface using a non-copyrighted implementation.

 

I'll also take this chance to clarify about encryption. The DMCA prevents breaking encryption in order to circumvent copyright protection. Decrypting non-copyrighted data from a hardware device is probably not protected by the DMCA.

Edited May 21, 2011 by Moa
typos

[Wolf Rider]

Again respectfully, it was you who started used the heli sim analogy:doh:, I was simply just putting it the correct way round.

 

 

 

actually, it was an extension of your using memory to map over... okay for one, but not for another??

 

 

 

Take FaceTracknoir for example, it uses NONE of the code from ANY NP software AT ALL. It uses an API that is available on the FREE market to track a face from the webcam. The developer can then move that data input into the game in whatever way ED agree on. There has been NO reverse engineering or stealing of code so copyright does not apply.

 

This is not about NP protecting their code or software, plain and simple its about keeping their market share.

 

 

 

I think you're wrong there...

 

 

Game protocol

 

The game-protocol can be selected with the Game-protocol checkbox. Check out the Compatible games section, if you don't know which protocol to use. Some protocols have their own settings. If so, the button will appear (with the protocol icon).

• To use PPJoy, the PPJoy software must first be installed and a 'virtual joystick' must then be installed as well. More info can be found in the ClientFiles folder of FaceTrackNoIR.
  
• To use FSUIPC it is necessary to copy the file FSUIPC.dll to the Modules folder of Microsoft Flight Simulator. If the installation-path of FS2002 or FS2004 is non-standard, the actual path must be defined using the Settings dialog of the FSUIPC protocol.
  
• To use FaceTrackNoIR with Combat Flight Simulator 3 (and others) the file TIRViews.dll must be placed in the installation folder of FaceTrackNoIR. This file can be downloaded from the NaturalPoint website (it's part of the TrackIR software). The checkbox 'use TIRViews' must also be ticked in the Settings of 'fake TrackIR'.
  

 

- facetracknoir manual

[jireland607]

I think you're wrong there...

 

 

Game protocol

 

- facetracknoir manual

 

I do not want to enter into an war of words so sorry if it looks like we are have arguing amongst ourselves, I feel its very important to have this debate though and I welcome your side of it. Several threads I have read and indeed started on this subject have ended after just a couple of posts.

 

You make a fair point with your quote from FaceTracknoir, and I was unaware of that having not played any of those games with it. That API, as stated in the manual was freely available on the NP website, this was up till version 4 of TrackIR. This reinforces the fact that none of NP's code or programs have been integrated into FaceTracknoir, the end user had to get the freely available interface for themselves. It's no different to using PPJoy.

 

Unfortunately for us, NP decided they did not want anybody else using their dll file, and again, I fully understand that, they made it, they should profit from it. But why insist that ED can not support any other method of HeadTracking? As I have said previously, it is possible to simply use memory mapping to read and write headtracking data between the program and the game. No need for downloading dll, using API's or reverse engineering protocols, just co-operation from ED and for NP to release its unreasonable grip.

[Wolf Rider]

@Jireland...

 

I think you'll find the problem is, (and will always keep coming back to this) is Naturalpoint won't support the use of their IP for other products.

 

as for what's in memory and mapping over it to make use of it; how would you feel if another helicopter sim developer decided to go down that route using DCS IP to make their own alternative sim run??

 

Develop something which is outside of Naturalpoint IP totally and there shouldn't be a problem

 

 

 

see back to goin' 'round circles

Edited May 21, 2011 by Wolf Rider

[V4Friend]

@Wolf Rider: I still think you are missing the point. To make any DCS-program work with FaceTrackNoIR (or any other face-tracker for that matter), no single bit or byte of NP's software is required.

[Wolf Rider]

@V4Friend...

 

that seems to contrast the manual info from post #36,... perhaps you would explain further how the hook in is achieved for FTNIR? considering fake trackIR and TrackIRfixer are indicated to be used

[Boomer]

Fake trackIR and TrackIRfixer would not be used if the developer (ED) created open track API (which they did, but it was canceled due to NP's request), that would allow every headtracking developer to use that API. That way, there wouldn't be a need for fake trackir's and whatnot. It's really simple.

[V4Friend]

A+

 

@Boomer: +10

[Fabri91]

It's also possible to use PPJoy, but it's a bit of a hassle to set up correctly.

[Wolf Rider]

@ Boomer..

 

what's even simpler is, is, if things had have been gone about in a 'more respectful manner to other peoples' work' in the first place, there wouldn't be all this brouhaha going on.

[V4Friend]

Positive action

 

Ok, so now that's cleared up, maybe it's time to get back to Jim's original 'request':

I would like to see support for another Head Tracking technology.

Questions are:

 

• can a company force another company to only support their product (and is that even legal?);
  
• can the DCS-users do the same as the ArmA users (convince ED that there are a lot of users who want alternatives);
  

[BlackRazor]

Ok, so now that's cleared up, maybe it's time to get back to Jim's original 'request':

Questions are:

 

• can a company force another company to only support their product (and is that even legal?);
  
• can the DCS-users do the same as the ArmA users (convince ED that there are a lot of users who want alternatives);
  

 

1) I guess it's legal, I doubt ED and NP want legal trouble and they certainly have lawyers that have analysed the contract before signing it.

2) Even if we convince ED, they still have signed a contract with NP, so unless they consensually and amicably decide to rescind it nothing will change, at least not for these two modules of the DCS series.

[Wolf Rider]

3. Come up with something that is truly independant of Naturalpoint's IP

4. Convince Microsoft to develop the DirectX headtracking interface, which any (not just the preferred) alternative can take make use of

[V4Friend]

Noted

 

3. Come up with something that is truly independant of Naturalpoint's IP

4. Convince Microsoft to develop the DirectX headtracking interface, which any (not just the preferred) alternative can take make use of

Hi Wolf,

 

I think point 3 was answered already? It is very easy to make a solution without any of NP's bit and bytes. Your point 4 is good and noted, but may prove more difficult than moving Mount Everest. Maybe you can pick up point 4 and set up a lobby to convince Microsoft? I will even support it!

 

I hope we can focus on points 1 and 2 now? Surely Bohemia had to sign the same kind of contract and they have implemented an alternative interface anyway, after the fore-mentioned successful action of the ArmA users. I think NP should be glad that ED supports their stuff and not the other way around...

 

:pilotfly:

 

P.S.: Maybe Moa can enlighten us further, where point 1 is concerned?

Edited May 23, 2011 by V4Friend

[Wolf Rider]

 

Your point 4 is good and noted, but may prove more difficult than moving Mount Everest.

 

 

well ya never know until ya try... :music_whistling:

 

you might recall this:

 

@Wolf Rider: I still think you are missing the point. To make any DCS-program work with FaceTrackNoIR (or any other face-tracker for that matter), no single bit or byte of NP's software is required.

 

 

@V4Friend...

 

that seems to contrast the manual info from post #36,... perhaps you would explain further how the hook in is achieved for FTNIR? considering fake trackIR and TrackIRfixer are indicated to be used

 

from earlier on

Edited May 23, 2011 by Wolf Rider

[Krisidious]

I'm starting to think I may have wasted my money... secret back door deals with manufacturers to sell their product is both underhanded and unappreciated. looks like I won't be spending any money on head tracking in the near future. and definitely not with TrackerIR, not the kind of business I want to support if this is how they make their money.