Tactical Value of NOE Flying

[Relayer]

We all know it's the proverbial dog's bollocks - blasting through the countryside at 300 knots, barely clearing treetops, all that dramatic yanking and banking through tight river valleys etc. And even more spectacular (and scary) at night by the green tint of NVG lenses.

 

And I never do it - at least, not in a combat area. The only time I ever drop below about 10k is for gun runs, and even those are few and far between. In my view, going low is just asking for trouble. MANPADS, AAA and small arms fire is just too much of a risk to take. Not to mention that it takes more cognitive load to fly at low level than at higher altitudes - important when you're tying to look around with your TGP, or set up an attack, or do anything combat related really.

 

The one time I might fly NOE would be if there was a greater danger at high altitude - a highly effective high altitude SAM system, for example.

 

So, most of the time I sit up high, probably never pulling more than 2G on an entire sortie. Not that it's boring - however:

 

The few times though that I have flown NOE - I loved it. So, my question here is - is there any real call for flying low level these days? When would you choose to fly NOE?

[coolts]

try "in the weeds". a great bundled mission for NOE flying. you have no SEAD to clear the radar missile threat so must use terrain to mask yourself whilst you prosecute the assigned targets.

 

its a whole different ball game down low! its all about stealth ans minimising your exposure. great for toss bombing CBU-97's as well

[Kaiza]

The only time I personally go NOE in the theatre portrayed in the game is to evade air threats. The A-10 has such little energy as it is, having no altitude that can quickly be turned into energy isn't a place I like being.

 

Yeah it is great fun though!

Edited May 17, 2011 by Kaiza

[Kenan]

Tactical value of NOE flying?

"Look ma', no hands!"

[Sid6dot7]

Tactical value of NOE flying?

"Look ma', no hands!"

 

And on the next pass "Look ma', no teeth!"

[hassata]

And on the next pass "Look ma', no teeth!"

 

And on the next pass, "Look ma, noooooooooooooooo . . ." :D

[coolts]

meh, its easy. just like beggars canyon............;)

[RodBorza]

For the A-10 I don't see much valeu on NOE operation, since it is usually supported by a number of other specialized flights. In the game, in the Georgia Hammer and The Shore campaigns most of time you stay high, picking targets with the TGP.

The only time I've descended to the deck was when the occasional Mig-29 would show up and the CAP flights were not in the area.

I think the value of NOE is much higher for deepo strike aircraft, like the F-15E (the next DCS module... er.. I hope...:music_whistling:)

[chaos]

NOE is the only viable option in a high intensity conflict (like the East vs. West scenario). When your opponent consists mainly of men carrying RPG's and Kalashnikovs ,with the odd MANPAD thrown in, you're better off up high. Plain and simple.

[rob10]

meh, its easy. just like beggars canyon............;)

Just remember ........ womprats don't shoot back!! :D

[Rahvin]

In old lock-on I'd sometimes come in low in a Su-27 with AWACS uplink and RADAR off. That way, with the right topology, I'd get a clear first shot for some intercept missiles, by locking the target with EOS, and activating the RADAR only if my RWR sais they've locked on me and are out of range of the trusty R73.

For A-10, it depends on the theater. If air superiority/SEAD isn't working like it should, going in low is safer than taking a bit shouty plane to the skies...

[Baggy MacDouche]

I almost never fly NOE. Maybe it is because I rely too much on leisurely spotting targets with the TGP up high so as to be outside the threat envelope. How does one find and prosecute targets while flying low and without labels?

[redtail]

And on the next pass, "Look ma, noooooooooooooooo . . ." :D

 

:megalol:

[159th_Viper]

How does one find and prosecute targets while flying low and without labels?

 

They find you :D

[Steel Jaw]

Finding targets is too hard NOE in the hawg, need height to use the TGP. And the pathetic lack of energy demands potential energy with altitude. So no.

[dooom]

read william smallwoods book on flying the a10 in iraq. The military entered theater assuming european training tactics like NOE would be applicable but quickly quickly quickly trashed that idea and pursued altitude for engagements.

[VMFA117_Poko]

Most of us think same way now :D. NOE is good to escape only if you have where to hide close.

[Baggy MacDouche]

Interesting to know as I always assumed that the hawg was designed to be down and dirty, especially with that GAU which has no use at alt.

 

I think what's missing is support. Flying NOE missions would require extensive battlefield coordination between elements like JTAC, etc. and even other flight elements. For example, have a wingman or flight element at high altitude spotting targets and sending info through data link to a hawg flying NOE. That way you wouldn't need to find targets yourself and you could easily use terrain to mask an approach on a SAM site and be on top of them before they knew it.

 

I wouldn't want to fly NOE any other way, and this setup would certainly be fun to try in multiplayer. Man I need to join a squad. :)

[OutOnTheOP]

Personally, I see plenty of use for NOE flight. Anything bigger than an SA8 warrants it, if you ask me. Now, if SEAD has (or is in the process of) killing all those, then sure, keep high... but not too high. You need to be able to make it back down into the weeds in a hurry if a MiG or unexpected SA11 shows up. I find angels 15 is about as high as I want to go; any more than that and the missile will reach me before I reach the dirt. ...Which, of course, will still result in me reaching the dirt, just in a significantly more incindiary manner than desired.

 

Personally, I have more issues with the SA6 and SA11 than anything else, and staying low is the way to go with them. You'll never out-altitude them, you'll never outrun them, and you'll never out-maneuver them. Even SA3 is pretty nasty in those regards, albeit much more vulnerable to countermeasures. So, you acquire them from outside their range, load them as a markpoint, and make your ingress masked by terrain, popping up only long enough to shoot. Mavericks are good, but prone to being shot down by more advanced SAM like SA15 or SA11. Guns work remarkably well. If it's in REAL rough terrain, Mk82 AIRs or CBUs work. I avoid the WCMD as the engagement takes too long and is harder to manage for snapshot engagements. Bombs wouldn't be my first choice, and I wouldn't try them against an SA15, but against an SA3, 6, or 11, if you take them by surprise with a real close-in pop-up out of terrain, they won't be able to traverse and fire fast enough. I actually vastly prefer the AIRs over the slicks for most targets just because you can deliver them with a much lower pop-up, much shorter run-in, and a lot less exposure to whatever radar-guided nasties might be in the area.

 

As to MANPADS... well, I'd rather face a (relatively speaking) low-performance, low-speed, and puny (contact fuzed) warhead than a mach 3+, high performance, energy-to-spare, proximity fuzed SA11. Honestly, I've never had trouble evading SA18. I'm not sure why they keep popping up on the forums portrayed as such a scary, inevadable terminator of the skies. They almost never hit me, and when they do, almost never do truly serious damage.

 

AAA? Well, unless you're dumb enough to fly straight (or unlucky enough to find yourself in the middle of a 4+ ZSU flak trap) they're not that scary. After all, the gun has to predict where you'll be several seconds from the time of firing. Once that bullet leaves the muzzle, it's going where it's going. Just don't be there when it gets there!

 

But SA3, 6, or 11? The ONLY time I've survived those bastards is when I hid cowering behind a mountain. You just can't escape them any other way.

 

*edit* Regarding finding targets from NOE being difficult in the A-10? Seriously? It's probably THE easiest airframe to do so from; that's part of why it was designed to fly slow. As long as you have a JTAC giving you a target grid to get you pointed in the right direction with a grid- or even better, with smoke- finding targets from NOE is EASY. Just fly your 30 degree offset approach to the pop-up point using the JTAC grid AS your target, and acquire the individual pinpoint target visually in the pop-up. You'll have 5-8 seconds between initiating your pop-up and rolling in; if the JTAC gave you a half competent grid and/ or mark, that's more than enough.

 

*edit 2* also remember, A-10 tactics developed for fighting insurgents who have no anti-air weapons with a higher ceiling than a 23mm do not equal tactics for fighting a first-rate army with proper air defense. Likewise, A-10 tactics that worked in southern Iraq, where the most prominent terrain features are 20 meters tall do not equal tactics developed for fighting in western europe, where there are plenty of mountains, hills, and valleys. Next time you're whizzing about Georgia, note the mountains. They make great missile shields =D

Edited May 18, 2011 by OutOnTheOP

[Rahvin]

I mostly agree - you're not flying a Ti-bathtub to chill at 20k.

While she isn't a helo, tactics should be similar, especially with working JTAC.

Essentially the CAS-variant of my SU-27 intercept tactic I laid out above.

Of course, it also depends on the specific terrain - there are some regions on the map, that are a little flat.

Reminds me of that one German review of black shark, saying "the terrain isn't hilly enough to allow efficient helicopter operations" and holding that against the game...

The terrain is the way it is - deal with it if you must, exploit it if you can.

If SEAD and CAP are working well though, going high certainly is safer. But expecting SEAD and especially CAP to be perfect is risky.

Remember, that SU-27 can lock you on without your RWR ever giving you a blip, except for the AWACS loitering 100 nm away...

[YGTBSM]

Many thanks for the NOE primer, OutOnTheOP (and others). Will definitely spend some time trying out these tactics. Most curious how well they'll work for me and how they fare in different threat environments. Cheers.

[nemises]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qD3EJ70CMMo&feature=feedu