Best to have fun or repeat to perfection?

[Conure]

Hey all, looking for some opinions!

 

I'm the type of person that will take off and land over and over until it's perfect every single time. Repeating TACAN navigation and ILS approaches repeatedly, to make sure should my other nav fail and the weather or poor, I can still get home. It's almost OCD but if I don't know how to do it perfectly, and realistically, I get annoyed and feel like I'm not "enjoying the sim" the right way.

 

How many of you take on a similar approach? Do many of you just jump into combat after the tutorials and learn that way? That'd be fun but I'd get frustrated coming back from a mission and crashing on landing!

 

No real point to this thread, it's just to try and stimulate a bit of discussion regarding how people learn!

 

Thanks :)

[JEFX]

Hi! Conure,

 

Without sounding too philosophical, I really believe that the result is not that important and what counts most (at least in most aspects of life and especially learning) is the process itself...

 

With a sim like this, the best of all is the immersion and learning how to do things repeatedly is part of the immersion (which is actually a very personal thing... some people get a tremendous immersion from reading a romance novel and others playing an fps shooter... but in the long run, they are both looking for the same thing : immersion, something that transports us in the realm of imagination).

 

I, just like you, like very much to practice ILS approch and playing around with CDU pages, setting up training ranges and playing around with small parameters, until it is perfet... it makes me feel part of the DCS world. I guess this is also a bit manic perfectionism, ah well, this I cant hide...

 

cheers

 

 

Jean-Francois

[Frostiken]

I don't 'repeat to perfection' but the point of the sim is to play it. If all you want to do is explode Russians, you can go play HAWX. Even if I'm just doing some little training mission I'll land just for the practice. A mate gave me a gun training mission, and the first time I tried it I sucked a bird down the #2 on takeoff. He said to turn birds off and restart, I said no, and proceeded to land :P

 

Perfect? No, I'm too much a spaz to do perfect... but at least get the spirit of it :D

[Conure]

Thank you both for your replies - they make interesting reading! And on a side note...Do works bird now?!

[Frostiken]

Do works bird now?!

Er uhm...

 

They always have... there's no visual effect yet but the higher you set 'birds' the higher chance of a bird strike (random engine failure) what at low altitude. I have mine set to 250, which is rare enough that I can do several missions without problems, but it pops up now and then.

[S77th-konkussion]

Do what you enjoy... If you branch out to multiplayer- you get to take in what other's enjoy... Ideal is probably somewhere in between..

[Frostiken]

Do what you enjoy... If you branch out to multiplayer- you get to take in what other's enjoy... Ideal is probably somewhere in between..

 

I'm scared of multiplayer :(

[S77th-konkussion]

Just ramp start it.. :thumbup:

[Frostiken]

The first time I ramp started the KA-50 it took me two hours (refused to read the manual) and then flipped over and blew up :/

[sobek]

I'm scared of multiplayer :(

 

Don't be. Flying close formation with a human wingie on egress after wreaking havoc on some good few tanks is as good as it gets. It's all about finding the right people to do it with.

[dbeaty]

I think if you want to land over and over and try to get it just perfect then that is one way to have fun in your own perfectionist way. Think of all the other things awaiting you when you get tired. You'll be doing new things for a year, one system at a time.

[Guest Cayenne]

Conure, I have been Flight simming since 84' and have flown or owned almost all of them for the PC. I have done it both ways (feet first and bottom-up) and the overall fastest way to get to the hardcore enjoyment of the sim is bottom-up...start with basics all the way to advanced G-A missile evasion and advanced combat strategies. Last thing you wan't to do while an hour and a half into a mission is try and figure out Your counter measure systems, all this stuff should be muscle memory or without thought...

 

The hog is a bad ass machine but just like any chess piece it has its limits and weaknesses.

 

Here is My loose syllabus:

 

---DO NOT USE easy modes ever!! Unless absolutely necessary and turn them OFF immediately when unnecessary. These things will ruin You!!!

 

---Have fun get Your heart rate up, and sweaty palms fly some mission enjoy the awesome graphics and realize just how much You don't know. Take a break from learning.....I don't do this anymore, I find the steps below very rewarding and it gets Me in the combat theater at max speed. patience = MAX rewards!!!

 

---Resist the urge to advance until You are proficient!! Trust Me the day You realize that You have it all just about covered will come too soon and will bring sadness!! Not to worry this is when the real fun begins!!!

 

#1 Cold and dark start up---this will be relegated to just for fun or realistic after I perfect it, too time consuming when Your looking at an hour + long mission.

 

#2 Aircraft handling---V-speeds, flap speeds, limits (air speed, engines, temps, etc) flaps, speed brakes, parking brakes (if any), ground handling and procedures, proficient control of aircraft night and day in all conditions, lights, etc. etc. etc. From the start I will use ILS in broad daylight this gets You familiar with the approach and proper slope but give some attention to the papi lights. Learn some basic stunts, Obey Her limits and She will reward You.

 

#3 Navigation....Fly the training missions, search these forums and Youtube. I highly recommend the "Learning Center" in Microsoft Flight Simulator ver. 9 or 10

 

#4 Communication...Learn You radios, see #3, AND RTFM! WarriorX and other Forum members have some great tutorials.

 

#5 Weapons...One at a Time! Start easy... Load the Hog with as many of just one kind as You can ie all rockets. This is where things heat up, You will have to incorporate TAD, TGP, Hud and Mission editor usage. Small user made practice missions are available for download. I have many that I use to test each new beta..just ask And I will post. Make dummy targets with no threats, and use all the different settings of each weapon this will give You practice with profiles and inventories work Your way up to the more advanced munitions.

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/Tigerpwrr<------Some of the finest training videos out there

 

outa time to be continued.....................

[ivanwfr]

I'm the perfectionist kind myself. And I can say why with an example. My point will be only about the common issue of muscle memory that plays a huge part in this sim as well as in racing games.

 

What only looking for perfection can accomplish is making your fingers do the right thing at the right time on their own while your brain is available for tactics or strategy issues.

 

I'll try to illustrate how this approach can lead to places where others, that choose not to go that way, will never reach... My example won't be sophisticated at all, I'm talking about Dirt 2... A simple go fast and faster... Yes but to the extreme, if you are very! obstinate like I think I am, you can go as far as to discern the devs coding for each curve. An other way to put it could be that I can add up the 3-4 parameters to consider at each curve entry point... Speed + orientation + acceleration + steering = good/bad = +/- time bonus/malus.

 

Problem is - with my example - that when your are there with say Dirt2, you stop playing it :wallbash: There's nothing beyond this point. What remains is to do the same thing for another circuit ... only to reach the same boundary. And I mean 500/1000 times each! The only way to "feel" each curve "in the zone".

 

With DCS we're talking about something so rich that I feel that everything I learn will become a base camp for all I will be doing next. This is where DCS make a big difference with my Dirt2 example, which I consider is doing a good job in its category as I enjoyed my quest for handling perfection.

 

Reaching the limit, or feeling as much, was when I felt that any fight for improvement I could make at that stage was all about getting around the failing parts of hardware and software approximation. For instance the simple fact that an input lag of 200ms make you cannot drive like if it were your car. You cannot correct, you can only "have done it the right way"... If you slip... too bad... and too late! And mind you, it takes "some" time to avoid every "programmed" mistakes and when you do... that's the end of perfection.

 

At this point, I can say that I have DCS A-10C since nearly 2 months and I still have to drop my first bomb :D

 

But I can talk about my TM Warthog HOTAS and its TARGET software ! And I enjoy having months and months of a learning curve before me!

 

...going on my own path... TARGET - Advanced programming

[BBQ]

Have a go at "perfecting" A2A refueling--come back and let us know how it goes--

 

See ya in about 2 years ;)

 

Actually--sure it takes less than that--it's just my current frustration (albeit the most fun I've had in a long time!) Sweaty palms, etc.--just tried my first time in the A10 (have some experience in F/A 18 and F16), tried to get on the boom for about 30 minutes, and just about lost the aircraft a few times. I finally paused it as I thought I might have a heart attack or something--stretched out and looked out the window, and thought--the real guys don't get to do this. They've got someone in line behind them, likely 3 or 4, but heh---NO PRESSURE. This is in idealic weather/visibility--

[lobo]

IMO the beauty of a sim is that once you slap down your $ you can fly it as you choose. With the incredible depth of DCS A10C there are countless ways to enjoy it.

[Frostiken]

Have a go at "perfecting" A2A refueling--come back and let us know how it goes--

 

See ya in about 2 years ;)

 

Actually--sure it takes less than that--it's just my current frustration (albeit the most fun I've had in a long time!) Sweaty palms, etc.--just tried my first time in the A10 (have some experience in F/A 18 and F16), tried to get on the boom for about 30 minutes, and just about lost the aircraft a few times. I finally paused it as I thought I might have a heart attack or something--stretched out and looked out the window, and thought--the real guys don't get to do this. They've got someone in line behind them, likely 3 or 4, but heh---NO PRESSURE. This is in idealic weather/visibility--

 

I was wondering about the reality of the in-flight refueling. I have no idea how it functions, but to me it would make sense if the refueling boom kept a certain amount of tension on the aircraft, in order to dampen oscillations and smooth out speed variances. I can't imagine real life pilots have to wiggle the throttle a fraction of a hair forward and back to stay in position...

[Scarecrow]

I also like repeating even the most basic training over and over till i'm statisfied I know what I'm doing. I didn't even fly a mission till january and I had the beta since day 2 (best day of 2010). I still regularly drill IFR ILS, and air to air refualing as you never know when you'll need to do it. I've flown full switch (the only sim I can fly full switch) since day one as labels aren't needed when you have a TGP which makes the successful completion of a mission soo satisfying.

Still scared of online though as my understanding of correct landing pattern and taxiway etiquette needs work. WarriorX's tutorials have been a great help in digesting the CDU section of the manual (it's so dry, really the only bit I shyed away from). I'm now doing the same thing in IL2 COD for eventual full switch leveling of London. This is the way I have fun now, took me 10 years to work up to a study sim but I'm glad I did, just have to buy Blackshark now :book:

[Bucic]

I personally advise the mixed approach - like the BS guide to blow up stuff... combined with a proper training. I have to add that, time wise, proportions should favor the proper training though :)

 

I'm scared of multiplayer :(

A common mistake ;) There are at least two valid approaches:

1. You join a sqdn that provides a methodical full training course.

2. You do the reading to be convincing enough to earn MP players help "on the fly" i.e. during MP missions when problems arise. The worst you could get is 'RTFM!' but if you're afraid of that you need to 'HTFU' ;)

 

There's even a topic where newbies are requesting online ad-hoc assistance.

[delta9856]

From my short time flying the A10 I have decided that it is important to mix it up every now and then. For me it is usually something like flying metres above the ground, ducking under power lines etc. It is still nessesary to practise the basics though like CDU use and navigation. Thats what I love about this sim, there are so many different approaches. Good job ED!:thumbup::pilotfly:

[Frostiken]

A common mistake ;) There are at least two valid approaches:

1. You join a sqdn that provides a methodical full training course.

2. You do the reading to be convincing enough to earn MP players help "on the fly" i.e. during MP missions when problems arise. The worst you could get is 'RTFM!' but if you're afraid of that you need to 'HTFU' ;)

 

There's even a topic where newbies are requesting online ad-hoc assistance.

 

Yes well, I had a traumatic experience online with realistic games, goes by the name 'Tactical Gamer'. Nothing like being told off because you don't know exactly how to call for artillery exactly how they think an infantryman would in real life...

[Headspace]

Yes well, I had a traumatic experience online with realistic games, goes by the name 'Tactical Gamer'. Nothing like being told off because you don't know exactly how to call for artillery exactly how they think an infantryman would in real life...

Amusing considering that there are 'communities' out there who consider TG to be not hardcore enough. Just goes to show that when it comes to mil-sim stuff, there really isn't a "too hardcore," there will always be people who fancy themselves even more hardcore.

[Frostiken]

Amusing considering that there are 'communities' out there who consider TG to be not hardcore enough. Just goes to show that when it comes to mil-sim stuff, there really isn't a "too hardcore," there will always be people who fancy themselves even more hardcore.

Which is exactly what I don't want to deal with online: The mil-sim version of a LARPer, who's an armchair veteran of seventy three world wars who angrily wipes Cheetoh dust off on his gut before keying his mic and yelling at me because I didn't call 'Fox Two' when I shot an AIM-9 off.

 

I think there comes a point of being 'hardcore' where it stops looking like fun and ends up being sort of pathetic, like they're trying to compensate for the fact that they never were even in the military themselves...

Edited May 23, 2011 by Frostiken

[S77th-konkussion]

I can assure you- There's almost none of that happening here.

[kungfoo]

Have fun, thus achieve perfection. They proved that you are way better at remembering things, when you have positive emotions about something.

[EtherealN]

Have fun, thus achieve perfection.

 

There is no such thing as achieving perfection. It is something we can aspire to, but never achieve. ;)