HOTAS versus Keyboard

[Virtualwombat]

Hi Guys,

What are the pros and cons of flying with a HOTAS Warthog compared with using mouse, joystick and keyboard? Is the HOTAS worth the price? Specifically, does DCS-A10c accept HOTAS commands more reliably than those from a keyboard? I seem to have problems inputting keyboard commands, whereas clicking switches in the VC works well. Second, is the HOTAS hard to accommodate on the average desk? For the life of me, I can't see where I would put one. I have the mouse in the left hand, the joystick in the right and the keyboard in the middle. There does not seem to be space for another unit.

 

Thoughts?

 

Noel.

[chokko]

its just nice having dedicated hat controls for everything as described in the DCS manual, becomes 2nd nature after awhile. just order from someone who can easily exchange for another, if you get one that has firmware issues or develops other physical issues.

 

regarding the 2nd part of your post, i originally had the warthog on the desk but got muscle stress pains down the left hand side of my chest from holding the left arm in a raised position for lenghty amounts of time.

they were so bad i couldnt sleep at night, struggled to drive my manual car for weeks on end.

 

i originally thought it was heart problems and saw a cardiologist who had no idea what was going on. Finally it clicked it that it was the positioning/height of the warthog throttle on a desk.

 

so i ended up building a cheapo ABC cockpit...no more problems.

 

maybe an extreme example, but something to think about ;)

[sofie_59]

I use a small(IKEA) table infront of my 24 inch screen ,so i sit about 1.20 m from the screen and have lot of place to put my Hotas and keyboad on it.

And yes i think it is a must to have a hotas to get the most out of DCS.

And ofcouse a track ir to.

[BKLronin]

Hi,

if you´re doing fine with this setup theres no need for any hotas but a good programmed hotas is so much better than keyboard in my opinion.

 

It doesn´t have to be a TM warthog but it feels just great and will last some time. I had around 10 sticks until the Warthog most of them didn´t broke but I was always on the search for something that feels right.

 

If you can effort it go for a TM warthog or similar stick class.

[digitaljjd]

Find a way to make it work. Get a larger desk or add a table, or even a folding tray. I remember when I first saw a real HOTAS here in the US in the early 90's and thought why in the hell would somebody need all that, the fact is I can't live without it now. It depends on what your flying. You don't need it so much with WWII or WWI flight sims, but with anything modern, I'd say it's a must. At the very least, I'd get a joystick with a twist rudder and a TrackIR. Trust me, you'll be very happy you did.(after you go through the pain in the ass of setting it up) I'm currently using an X52 Pro and Saitek Pro rudder pedals.

 

P.S. All HOTAS's have their own quirks and/or problems, make sure to do some research before you intend to buy one.

Here is a good start: http://www.simhq.com/_technology2/technology_094a.html

Edited June 1, 2011 by digitaljjd

[macedk]

well..It all boils down to being able to fly and fight.

The hotas will help you to concentrate on the flying and fighting allot more than having to remove your hands from the stick and throttle.

Problem is, once you have tried a hotas, rudder and trackir setup, you will have a hard time going back to a pure keyboard setup.

 

Regarding the setup.

I put my warthog and throttle on two wooden cases on each side of the chair, so its not a true A-10 position put a f-16 setup, but it works very well for me :)

[Frostiken]

Is the TM Warthog worth it?

 

In a word, no. It hardly offers anything you can't do with much cheaper setups, you'll still have to buy pedals, the TARGET software and the 'default' controls for it don't really work together, and I've heard plenty of stories that the actual hardware is less than reliable including more than a few arriving to people on this very forum with defects (inop switches, LEDs that don't work).

 

It does have some serious pros, but to say that it's "worth it" is a dubious claim. It's nice that it's made of solid metal and feels sturdy, but it's really just "nice". Though not having springs gives you a much smoother transition around the horn...

 

Ultimately it's like this - the Warthog is $500, has no yaw features, and the microstick on it is the worst thing in the world and IMO completely lets the quality of the rest of the product down.

 

The TM Warthog is like buying a really fancy car. It will never be worth the price, but you buy it because you can afford to have some luxuries. It may ride smoother, it may have a cooler built into the cup holder, but in the end, it's still a car that gets you from point A to point B along a road, and for $2000 you could buy a car that does the exact same thing.

 

The single best alternative to the TM Warthog is to buy a CH Products setup which will run you about half the price ($300 is about the most you'll pay). Advantages of the CH setup is the amazing scripting ability and legendary reputation for reliability, though you have springs and potentiometers instead of magnets, it's plastic and a little big, and it's a single trigger / throttle. The throttle hardly matters, but you'll have to come up with a scripting solution for the trigger (these exist around here on this forum).

 

PS: The microstick on the CH setup is far superior to the TM Warthog.

Edited June 1, 2011 by Frostiken

[ivanwfr]

If you are not ready to WORK the TARGET scripting feature, I agree with what has been said so far but if you are, I would go as far as saying you could unplug your keyboard (not really but close!).

 

I'm one of the very few seriously digging into what TARGET has to offer. I would even say that I'm still waiting for someone to talk about it with. Instead, all I can read is that plug and play featured is lost as soon as you use it.

 

If this is true with Logitech devices that have so crappy software/hardware quality ratio, TM Warthog HOTAS is the first device I ever had on my table with such a good combination. Sure, my point has something related to the fact that I deal with software for a living. But any well wired enough brain able to fly an A-10 meets the requirements.

 

Just to stress one of the amazing possibilities, the layer modes give you 6 different bindings for each of the >50 switches... Even more, you can add your own modes with a little clever state programming (TEMPO feature has hidden potential)...

[S77th-konkussion]

There is no comparison between flying the keyboard and flying a HOTAS. However- the mentality that it's warthog or nothing is just plain wrong.

 

It's very nice. I'd like to have one. But CH gear works beautifully, and many people here use a Saitek X52/ x52 pro, X65, and a couple others.

[Tailspin45]

Tried several joysticks, ended up—thanks to my wife who supports my every vice—with HOTAS and two Thrustmaster Cougar MFD plus TrackIR and I'm very glad I (she) made the investment. Necessary? Not at all. Worth it? Absolutely.

 

Found a tidy way to set things up (see http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=66927).

 

I've been a pilot for 45 years including a stint in the Navy, and with 10,000+ hours and an ATP certificate can honestly say that I get as much enjoyment (if not as much transportation) from this sim as I do from real flying. Besides, who's going to throw you the keys to an A-10C and let you go play? I have a C-45H out at the airport, and and a friend that will let me fly his straight tail Bonanza any time I want if I'll put gas in it, and I fly many more A-10 hours than I do in them.

 

All of which is not in any way to brag, but simply to suggest that there's a great deal of flying pleasure to be had for the price of this sim and some hardware, or about the same as a couple hours in the C-45 or about six in the Bonanza. Besides, there aren't any other aircraft that have a AN/GUA-8, very few that will let you fire a Maverick, and none you can rent or buy at your local airport.

 

Off topic slightly, but I cranked up Flight Simulator X yesterday to fly the exceptional SuperBug F/A-18 using FTX terrain with XtremeEnviroment clouds...and was back on the A-10 within an hour. Used to think FSX was wonderful, but the Warthog is the new gold standard in my book.

Edited June 1, 2011 by Tailspin45
fixed bad URL to other post

[macedk]

warthog = hallsensor = smooth flying.

 

Tried and have the logitech g940...it has hall sensor but a light stick = all over the shop.

[Sarge55]

Just to add to the general theme of the thread. A HOTAS is definetly the way to go and TrackIR (or equivilant free option). Once it's set up it makes the whole sim experience better.

 

I went from X52Pro to the TM Warthog and it was a great step up, much smoother to fly especially with Black Shark. However to be honest, if you are just starting out it would probably be best to get the X52Pro or the CH set (I have CH pedals and they are great) and with the money you save pick up the TrackIR.

 

If you go with X52Pro or CH you will find some good profiles in the forums to get you started and of course the Warthog is Plug n Play although I use the paddle to modify some extra functions.

 

Mounting the HOTAS, I just added a extra shelf at the right height at the end of my computer desk and when I fly (which is most of the time) I just turn the monitors. Check out this forum for ideas. http://forums.eagle.ru/forumdisplay.php?f=101

[Fish]

No discussion

HOTAS for DCS A10. Otherwise don't bother.

 

If you don't have one. Start saving! :cry:

[Brer Rabbit]

Is the TM Warthog worth it?

 

In a word, no.

 

This. I use a radio controlled airplane controller from RealFlight which has two joystics and a button. I use the mouse and keyboard for everything else. Its not too bad. Paying 500 to 600 dollars for a joystick is insane. I wouldn't give over $75 for a HOTAS setup. Its just a joystick. I would like to get TrackIr one day though, if it ever comes down to a decent price.

[Virtualwombat]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I'm grateful for the honest and perceptive analysis of the options. It seems to me that a HOTAS unit is very nice to have if you can afford it. I'll have to reassess my setup and see if there is a way to fit it in. I agree with Tailspin45, DCS A-10c is way better than even the VRS Superbug, which is about the best FSX has to offer.

 

Cheers,

 

Noel.

[MTFDarkEagle]

the 'default' controls for it don't really work together

Care to explain?

 

It does have some serious pros, but to say that it's "worth it" is a dubious claim.

That's a personal opinion. I switched from a X52 (non-pro) to a warthog, and I would do it again without a doubt.

[oceanoftimeGER]

Care to explain?

 

 

That's a personal opinion. I switched from a X52 (non-pro) to a warthog, and I would do it again without a doubt.

Personally, I'm only interested in the quality of the flight stick since I already have mapped all controls perfectly with an X52 Pro; however, it feels quite loose when it is at center position but I'm assuming that's just how the product is, after all it's only $150, but how is the warthog in comparison?

[MTFDarkEagle]

In comparison the warthog is miles ahead! Both for toughness, feel, and precision.

 

Regarding the reliability: look at the warthog database, and then compare the number of faults that are reported here (and simhq, and anywhere else for that matter). You will find that it's a very small percentage.

[Shez]

If you can get into a HOTAS set up do it! And then as soon as you can get some form of head tracking. And some rudder pedals down the road. Those three things will boost your game play and put you in the cockpit!

 

I'm using the G940. Despite it's problems it's still decent. Especially for DCS Black Shark!

[cichlidfan]

Personally, I'm only interested in the quality of the flight stick since I already have mapped all controls perfectly with an X52 Pro; however, it feels quite loose when it is at center position but I'm assuming that's just how the product is, after all it's only $150, but how is the warthog in comparison?

 

My X52 is the same, sloppy in the middle. Now I know it's not just mine. That is really the only thing I don't like about the X52.

[Speed]

Well, without a curve on my X-52, I found refueling in air impossible. I added a curve, and then I began to rip my wings off coming out of dives because I unintentionally was getting past the sharp knee of my curve.

%

[redtail]

Tried several joysticks, ended up—thanks to my wife who supports my every vice—with HOTAS and two Thrustmaster Cougar MFD plus TrackIR and I'm very glad I (she) made the investment. Necessary? Not at all. Worth it? Absolutely.

 

Found a tidy way to set things up (see http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=66927).

 

I've been a pilot for 45 years including a stint in the Navy, and with 10,000+ hours and an ATP certificate can honestly say that I get as much enjoyment (if not as much transportation) from this sim as I do from real flying. Besides, who's going to throw you the keys to an A-10C and let you go play? I have a C-45H out at the airport, and and a friend that will let me fly his straight tail Bonanza any time I want if I'll put gas in it, and I fly many more A-10 hours than I do in them.

 

All of which is not in any way to brag, but simply to suggest that there's a great deal of flying pleasure to be had for the price of this sim and some hardware, or about the same as a couple hours in the C-45 or about six in the Bonanza. Besides, there aren't any other aircraft that have a AN/GUA-8, very few that will let you fire a Maverick, and none you can rent or buy at your local airport.

 

Off topic slightly, but I cranked up Flight Simulator X yesterday to fly the exceptional SuperBug F/A-18 using FTX terrain with XtremeEnviroment clouds...and was back on the A-10 within an hour. Used to think FSX was wonderful, but the Warthog is the new gold standard in my book.

 

Absolutely agree. Cessna-172 pilot here with about a little more than 1% of your flight time:) But i'm having a blast in this sim. For me, the Hotas Warthog is definitely worth it:thumbup: And as for FSX, well I haven't been able to go back to it nor X-Plane ever since I got my hands on DCS A-10C

[Frostiken]

warthog = hallsensor = smooth flying.

 

The hall effect magnets make it a little smoother to move around, which is nice. outside that, you still have variable resistance in the stick as you transit the axises (not as much as a spring which makes it smooth), but having used both, the argument that the hall effect's precision is noticeable is a stretch. I've attempted air/air refueling with both hall effect and potentiometer joysticks and it's no easier, and you will still need curves. In general maneuvering, it won't matter. The real value seems to be in the tactile response which just feels nicer with magnets. If you think it's going to be some sort of night and day difference control-wise, prepare to be disappointed.

 

PS: Can we all stop using 'HOTAS' to refer to the TM Warthog? It's getting really confusing. HOTAS = your joystick setup, not the product :/

Edited June 2, 2011 by Frostiken

[ivanwfr]

Have just read Frostiken post about TM Warthog, potentiometer, hall sensors, maneuvering and curves. So, if this is all about quality, control and precision, something is missing here! It looks like we're talking about how to use the 5 gears of a Bugatti!

 

I'm still obstinately - once more - talking about TARGET scripting, again and again. As well as there is something beyond Notepad in a PC, any axis curve can be dynamically adjusted by script real-time with a flip of any switch. Even the Slew pointing stick becomes quite usable with a scripted kind of precision-control. SetSCurve(&Throttle, SCX, 0, 0, 0, curve, zoomIn[/zoomOut]);.

 

If we just plug this device in and use it as if it were a toy, we get what we deserve, just a very expensive toy. Plug and play they say! OK, just do that and switch to A-10C Easy mode to be consistent. If you rather chose to read the 600+ pages of the A10C manual, you should also consider investing some effort into the main instrument handling...

 

+1 on my own campaign target board ;)

Edited June 2, 2011 by ivanwfr

[Tailspin45]

I'm still obstinately - once more - talking about TARGET scripting, again and again. As well as there is something beyond Notepad in a PC, any axis curve can be dynamically adjusted by script real-time with a flip of any switch. Even the Slew pointing stick becomes quite usable with a scripted kind of precision-control. SetSCurve(&Throttle, SCX, 0, 0, 0, curve, zoomIn[/zoomOut]);.

 

You have my attention! Could you perhaps point me/us to some resources that would remove the fog of war, I mean TARGET? So far I find it impenetrable.